Mmm... not sure what to call this

[bid]

Hi Bid, sorry if I offend you. Some people sometimes reply abruptly/rudely/cant see both sides of debate/ due to autism or NT! As this is an ASD forum surely it is important to take it into consideration sometimes, maybe? x

 

But neither you nor Mandapanda made comments to the effect that some people on the forum may be rude or abrupt, think differently or find it hard to understand posts, which would be a fair observation.

 

Instead you both specified that autistic people on the forum may be all these things.

 

I not only find this viewpoint patronising, I think it undermines the whole ethos of the forum.

 

I certainly never thought I would see comments like that on this forum

 

Bid

Edited April 30, 2009 by bid

[lisac]

some autistic people on the forum then? and some NT people on the forum too?

Edited April 30, 2009 by lisac

[bid]

some autistic people on the forum then?

 

Do you genuinely not understand why specifying autistic is patronising?

 

I've said everything I want to say about these comments concerning autistic people on the forum. I'm left profoundly depressed...as I said, I never thought I would see comments like this on our forum

 

Bid

Edited April 30, 2009 by bid

[lisac]

only if you read it that way surely ?

what i mean is, if you consider consideration as patronising that is down to you, and im not being patronising, i never was.

Edited April 30, 2009 by lisac

[baddad]

I've just said all this once in another thread, so i'll paraphrase...

the problem I have (quite apart from the assumptions about 'autistic people' which were there... sorry, but they were ) is that this isn't a discussion about the 'way' things are said at all - it's a discussion about the opinions being expressed and (sometimes) the people expressing them.

It does seem to be perfectly acceptable for people to make 'less than carefully worded' posts, provided that they pick the right targets and topics. It is only the people expressing concern about the nature of those posts who are negatively judged, and it often doesn't seem to matter how carefully worded their replies are...

Again - like in the other thread i've mentioned above - this thread offers a prime example...

This thread started with the suggestion that some members want to see the forum kept an 'exclusive club' for those with dx only. There has not been a single response from any member expressing that opinion, but there have been many saying that they agree with the suggestion being put forward(?). I offered a suggestion last night that could take all of the 'greys' out of the equation and provide a definitive answer, but that hasn't been commented on at all! Why?

Arising from this thread, an autistic adult has highlighted the inherent value judgements about autistic people being made in it - both of which were quite specific and negative. The people who made those negative posts have actually now gone one stage further by defending them and suggesting that the people who found their quite specific and negative value judgements, erm, quite specific and negative are the one's at fault for 'misunderstanding'.

At the moment, there are only two people 'defending' the autistic membership from those allegations, and i suspect that defence is being negatively judged by many - possibly as aggressive(?)

In another post recently I 'challenged' another negative value judgement being applied to some members (some of them autistic) - that of 'concrete thinking'... I pointed out that, in fact, it was those members who were expressing 'open' opinions that considered both sides of the argument, while those who were making the accusations of 'concrete thinking' refused to consider any alternative explanation than the conclusion they had already reached. Again. this (I thought) perfectly valid and valuable observation was completely ignored because it did not 'fit' the popular view.

 

Sorry - wandering from the point a bit: the point i wanted to make is, in a nutshell, this. Contrary to what is being suggested (albeit as a 'side issue) in this (and other) threads... it is not 'the way it's being said' but the opinions themselves that people find challenging, because, quite evidently, 'how you say it' only becomes an issue if you are disagreeing with the majority. If you're going with the flow, then you can say it any ol' way you want.

Not good news for any 'uphill swimmers', is it?

Also worth considering that 20 years or so ago the 'popular view' was that autism was caused by refrigerator mothers... thank god the uphill swimmers were such a dedicated bunch, eh?

 

L&P

 

BD

[Mumble]

Do you genuinely not understand why specifying autistic is patronising?

 

I've said everything I want to say about these comments concerning autistic people on the forum. I'm left profoundly depressed...as I said, I never thought I would see comments like this on our forum

As another 'grown-up' autistic on the forum (and not a parent - shock horror, what am I doing here, I won't know anything or be able to help anyone, I'm just a poor autistic) I agree with everything Bid has said and have been made to feel the same way. The two main people who have written these things are very lucky I've got enough going on at the moment to be able to roll my eyes and shout obscenities at my computer screen rather than engage in too much comment here (which would be put down to me not understanding social conventions, right? ). Someone on a thread somewhere recently said "who'd want to be autistic round here?". I thought that maybe it was a bit harsh (although understood the sentiments) but unfortunately that's become more true. It seems if you're autistic here (and I think even more for the few of us who aren't parents and so can't come from that angle - not that I don't think the autistic parents are being patronised too - I think they are) at the moment, you can't enter any of the serious debates, because if you say something against someone else's opinion (i.e. you dare to have an opinion of your own ) either you get called rude because you're autistic (and don't start me on that mis-association) or just ignored because after all, what would you know you poor let's pat you on the head for being such a brave soldier autistic. That's ###### patronising.

 

Support in the form of agreement for someone's opinion isn't support at all. Support is about developing understanding and that's not going to come if you're not prepared to listen to a whole side of the debate.

 

 

Oh, did I tell you, I met an old man today who must be autistic. When I ignored him (accidentally, I really didn't realise he was talking to me - but that'll be my autism) he started prodding me with his walking stick to get my attention - complete insistence that I listen to him and very rude when I was trying to talk to the nurse sat next to me... And he went on and on about something or other. He must be autistic, poor man, couldn't help poking me with his stick () we know autistics can't control their behaviour.

 

[lisac]

So what do you suggest Baddad , the naughty step for me ?

[Karen A]

As another 'grown-up' autistic on the forum (and not a parent - shock horror, what am I doing here, I won't know anything or be able to help anyone, I'm just a poor autistic) I agree with everything Bid has said and have been made to feel the same way. The two main people who have written these things are very lucky I've got enough going on at the moment to be able to roll my eyes and shout obscenities at my computer screen rather than engage in too much comment here (which would be put down to me not understanding social conventions, right? ). Someone on a thread somewhere recently said "who'd want to be autistic round here?". I thought that maybe it was a bit harsh (although understood the sentiments) but unfortunately that's become more true. It seems if you're autistic here (and I think even more for the few of us who aren't parents and so can't come from that angle - not that I don't think the autistic parents are being patronised too - I think they are) at the moment, you can't enter any of the serious debates, because if you say something against someone else's opinion (i.e. you dare to have an opinion of your own ) either you get called rude because you're autistic (and don't start me on that mis-association) or just ignored because after all, what would you know you poor let's pat you on the head for being such a brave soldier autistic. That's ###### patronising.

 

Support in the form of agreement for someone's opinion isn't support at all. Support is about developing understanding and that's not going to come if you're not prepared to listen to a whole side of the debate.

 

 

Oh, did I tell you, I met an old man today who must be autistic. When I ignored him (accidentally, I really didn't realise he was talking to me - but that'll be my autism) he started prodding me with his walking stick to get my attention - complete insistence that I listen to him and very rude when I was trying to talk to the nurse sat next to me... And he went on and on about something or other. He must be autistic, poor man, couldn't help poking me with his stick () we know autistics can't control their behaviour.

 

Mumble. <'> <'> I want you to listen to me.

I think you need to not worry about this.

I have read your other thread.I think that getting stressed out over this will not help you.You do not neeed the stress.It is not worth having fits set off over.

I probably sound like I am patronising you.If so I am sorry.

Trust me.It is not worth it.

If anyone else has an opinion on my advice I don't really care.

 

[Mumble]

Mumble. <'> <'> I want you to listen to me.

I think you need to not worry about this.

I have read your other thread.I think that getting stressed out over this will not help you.You do not need the stress.It is not worth having fits set off over.

I probably sound like I am patronising you.If so I am sorry.

Trust me.It is not worth it.

If anyone else has an opinion on my advice I don't really care.

Don't worry Karen, I'm not getting stressed (by this ... plenty of other things, yes) nor do I find you post patronising. In fact, I'm stuck between mild bemusement at how some people (not yourself) can be so patronising and not realise it and slight concern as to whether their slightly patronising stance is extrapolated to other 'poor soldiers'

 

[baddad]

So what do you suggest Baddad , the naughty step for me ?

 

Hmmm... you could try; 'Ahhh, maybe... now i've thought about it...'

But only if you have, 'cos if not that would just be patronising

 

So - whether you think 'The Naughty Step' appropriate or not I do think some quiet reflection wouldn't be a bad thing. And it's perfectly fine if at the end of that you decide you still feel the same way - but don't expect others to necessarily agree with you, because some people here actually want to question the stereotypes rather than perpetuate them.

 

Oh dear, i hope that didn't come across as patronising It's said in exactly the same spirit as (I think) your own post was intended

 

Mumble, i think you know by now that I won't patronise you (or anyone else - autie or otherwise), and i think our autistic members are just as capable of offering right/wrong/good/bad/patronising/non-patronising/well expressed/badly expressed advice support and information as the NT members and visa versa. I'm sure the vast majority agree, even if it's me saying it!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Oh - one other thing - Who put me in charge of the naughty step? I'd have chosen someone far less opinionated!

[kinky j]

some autistic people on the forum then? and some NT people on the forum too?

 

OMG!!!

 

How can you not see just how incredably prejudiced this statement is??? It does nothing to disguise the original discrimination because you're still segregating one subsection from the rest of the community!

 

It debases the whole of society into an "us" and "them" situation. ASD vs NT so to speak! So where exactly does that leave those who, while not autistic, are also not neuro-typical? There are many forms of neuro-dysfunction; dyslexia, depression, altzihmers (sp?), psychopathy, just to name a few, are they completely innocent of all rudeness? If not then which camp do they join?

 

As a psychology student I can tell you that Neuro-typical is an incredbly rare neuro-type, being as it means "having no Neuro-dysfunction of ANY kind, whether innate or environmental in origin".

 

So what do you suggest Baddad , the naughty step for me ?

 

And, this just goes to show how little respect you have for the people you've caused offence to! If you truly didn't mean to cause any upset, surely a simple apology would have been a much better way of showing it? Rather than trivialising their justified responses.

 

Bid, Mumble and Baddad, :clap:

 

Thankyou for having the strengh of character to speak out against this attitude!

 

I don't come on this forum to have my ego massaged or my opinions validated. I come here (excluding the social aspect of finding those i share common ground with) to find advice and support for my son's needs that will help me act in HIS best interest! If I knew everything and was certain of my complete, unbiased, understanding then I wouldn't need to ask for advice. Thank you, and all the uphill swimmers, who help me gain perspectives I may not have considered!

 

I have a feeling this post won't make me very popular :tearful:

[madme]

Wish that I had never started this thread.

[Mumble]

Wish that I had never started this thread.

I'm glad you did as it's useful to know where the prejudices are and how 'workable' they are - to know whether to aim for education or avoidance.

 

Neuro-typical is an incredibly rare neuro-type, being as it means "having no Neuro-dysfunction of ANY kind, whether innate or environmental in origin".

I didn't know NT actually had a definition - I thought it had originated within the ASD community. I'm going to go and try and track one of these species down for scientific investigation - I'm guessing the guy on the corridor who's just dyed his hair purple won't count as neuro-normal!! In fact, looking in the student population may not be the best place to start :lol:

 

[lisac]

Bid and Mumble I am truly sorry if i offended you personally, it was not intentional

Baddad, I have indeed, been a very very naughty girl

and kinky ...what can I say ... I thought you would have had a sense of humour !! ,x

Edited April 30, 2009 by lisac

[baddad]

Wish that I had never started this thread.

 

Hi madme you really shouldn't be. With respect to the original concern you posted about you should be 100% reassured - there has not been a single post in support of a 'dx only forum'...

The twists and turns the thread took do not diminish that, are not related to you or your post directly and have (IMO) raised some difficult but important issues along the way...

As they said about Danielle Bux on Hell's Kitchen - what's not to like?

 

Lisa - I'll forgive you. 1,000's wouldn't but.... (seriously, you'll find these people - by which I mean forum members, not autistic people or NT people - don't hold grudges.)...

 

Kinky J - on behalf of all uphill swimmers thank you... TBH I was feeling a bit battered and bruised myself, and from their posts I think it's safe to assume that bid and mumble were too. A thumbs up (well, if you want to get all 'autie' about it, one 'notworty' and three 'claps') from left field like that made a big difference. Thank you.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

OMG!!!

 

How can you not see just how incredably prejudiced this statement is??? It does nothing to disguise the original discrimination because you're still segregating one subsection from the rest of the community!

 

It debases the whole of society into an "us" and "them" situation. ASD vs NT so to speak! So where exactly does that leave those who, while not autistic, are also not neuro-typical? There are many forms of neuro-dysfunction; dyslexia, depression, altzihmers (sp?), psychopathy, just to name a few, are they completely innocent of all rudeness? If not then which camp do they join?

 

As a psychology student I can tell you that Neuro-typical is an incredbly rare neuro-type, being as it means "having no Neuro-dysfunction of ANY kind, whether innate or environmental in origin".

 

I have just realised that I need to find a new category for myself.I do not fit the criteria for NT at all.

 

[kinky j]

Lisac, I'm really sorry if I caused you any upset <'> I had storming migraine last night and my frustration at some of the stuff thats been going on on the forum took vent on your posts. It really is nothing personal and I know you never meant to cause offence I just seem to get sense of humour failure when I'm in pain, and am a tad outspoken with my opinions.

 

Mumble, As far as I'm aware the term Neuro-typical was originally coined by the autistic community, but has now been adopted into wider scientific use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotypical

I'm not entirely sure about the terms neuro-type and neuro-dysfunction I may have picked them up from another source or just "created" them myself to explain concepts that arise from the idea of neuro-typical

 

BD, When I had exhausted all the conventional methods of potty training it was posts, from you and others, showing me different angles and ideas that finally helped me support C to get it cracked! Sometimes a different perspective is what is needed, and I'll always be grateful to people who help me find them

 

Karen A, Neither do I, though to be fair I don't think I've met anyone who does

 

Lastly, I just want to say a HUGE thankyou to everyone on the forum! It is the combination of all out differing opinions and perspectives that makes this place what it is, and I would be lost without it! <'> >< <'> ><

[bid]

Thank you for the support, Kinky

 

Bid

[bid]

Bid and Mumble I am truly sorry if i offended you personally, it was not intentional

Baddad, I have indeed, been a very very naughty girl

and kinky ...what can I say ... I thought you would have had a sense of humour !! ,x

 

Thank you for the apology, Lisa.

 

Without wanting to appear ungracious, the most important thing is that hopefully you see why it upset us.

 

Thank you again

 

Bid

Edited May 1, 2009 by bid

[lisac]

Yes Bid, yes of course I can see why it upset you , so here is a big fat sloppy kiss, as you are all so nice *kiss* ( no smiley face for this? )

Here i go with my big size 5's, (deep breath) I ask because im interested in what everyone says. Is it sometimes a little bit harsh to chastise someone for taking into consideration someone else's possible autism when chatting in real life or online? I ask because, when someone talks with my son, them taking into account his autism is very important, for all sorts of reasons. So in his case, even a slight generalisation, would be better than none. What do you think? I hope this is'nt offensive as I dont mean it to be . , x

[bid]

Yes Bid, yes of course I can see why it upset you , so here is a big fat sloppy kiss, as you are all so nice *kiss* ( no smiley face for this? )

Here i go with my big size 5's, (deep breath) I ask because im interested in what everyone says. Is it sometimes a little bit harsh to chastise someone for taking into consideration someone else's possible autism when chatting in real life or online? I ask because, when someone talks with my son, them taking into account his autism is very important, for all sorts of reasons. So in his case, even a slight generalisation, would be better than none. What do you think? I hope this is'nt offensive as I dont mean it to be . , x

 

Um, well I'll try...

 

I guess in this particular instance it was the way things were worded and the coupling of a lot of stereotypical 'negatives' specifically with autism in a situation where actually they apply to people in general, i.e misunderstanding posts, responding bluntly, etc. Don't know if I've explained that very well?

 

When it comes to 'patronising' people, very often the perpetrator may well not be doing it intentionally, but it is still patronising. An example: my dear old ex-MIL used to knit vests for 'poor little black babies in Africa'. She didn't mean anything wrong or negative at all by this comment, but it contained sooo many prejudices and was definitely patronising, however well-meant.

 

I guess it's the whole 'Does he take sugar?' thing on here as well, as we may have ASD but we are also adults, and we have a range of life experiences exactly like other adults: we might have families, hold down responsible jobs, are in higher education, etc, etc. I'm all for taking autism into consideration, especially within the whole field of communication but again it's the way it's done because we need to be treated as adults and equals.

 

I can't speak for BD (perish the thort!! ) or Mumble, and they may have a different answer to your question, which isn't offensive at all BTW!

 

Not sure whether any of that makes sense or helps you at all...I worked last night, so I'm not at my sparkiest!

 

Bid

Edited May 1, 2009 by bid

[kinky j]

Yes Bid, yes of course I can see why it upset you , so here is a big fat sloppy kiss, as you are all so nice *kiss* ( no smiley face for this? )

Here i go with my big size 5's, (deep breath) I ask because im interested in what everyone says. Is it sometimes a little bit harsh to chastise someone for taking into consideration someone else's possible autism when chatting in real life or online? I ask because, when someone talks with my son, them taking into account his autism is very important, for all sorts of reasons. So in his case, even a slight generalisation, would be better than none. What do you think? I hope this is'nt offensive as I dont mean it to be . , x

 

I will first state that this is purely MY opinion on the matter, feel free to disagree with me and that I am using "you" in the "an individual" sense rather than the "you, personally" sense IYSWIM.

 

I think this depends on the situation, If you are casually chatting or discussing something (ie: most online conversations) you shouldn't make allowances specifically for anything. you should just treat everyone respectfully. If there is a disagreement or bone of contention you should raise this assertively without being agressive (which breaches the respect for others) or passive (which breaches respect for yourself).

 

You don't go out of your way to make allowances for someone being depressed, jewish, hispanic, in pain, an idiot, mysogynistc, etc so why should you single out autism to be aware of? surely it would just be easier to be aware that people have reasons for reacting how they do and if it causes an issue to state this without rudeness.

 

If, however you are dealing with someone who will be dealing with an individual, with a specific condition, on a personal level it is important for them to take into account how that condition may affect their interactions.

 

One example of how someone taking autism into account may go wrong; I told an aquaintance that my son has autism so to be aware that he may not always respond when spoken to, the aquaintance then knelt down and said to C, "HOW.....ARE.....YOU....TO..DAY?" C just looked at me n said "Mum, why's he talking weird?"

 

This taught me that when I want someone to take account of something, it's always important to first make sure they know what they're taking account of!

 

As I said, this is just my take on it.

[Mandapanda]

I didn't say that people who are rude and blunt are autistic. The sentences weren't meant to be related - that proves my point that typed words can be misinterpreted. Sorry to you and to BID.

 

Bid, please see my above post, where I tried to explain as best I could.

[bid]

Bid, please see my above post, where I tried to explain as best I could.

 

I can see that on re-reading again

 

Bid

[Mandapanda]

I don't post that often. I come here for support and have found a lot over the years. I have to say I'm quite upset by what appears to be an underlying current of criticism. None or perhaps I should say few of us are experts on autism and aspergers. Most who post have a child diagnosed or awaiting diagnosis or are diagnosed themselves. I agree not everyone has asd or asd traits. If someone thinks that there child may have it then there is likely to be an issue somewhere - whether it is asd or not. I agree that we shouldnt self diagnose but sometimes I get this feeling that some almost have the approach - well I'm in the club but I don't want everyone to join. These little comments every now and then just upset me. I can recall knowing that my son was different and feeling scared of admitting it. Posting sometimes takes a lot of guts.

 

I will now get off my high horse and hope that I haven't upset anyone.

 

I only recently found this forum 8 years after my eldest son was diagnosed. However, I knew he had Asperger's before he was diagnosed. His best friend at the time had Asperger's and I had never heard of it. When his mum mentioned it I looked into it and was surprised to find a perfect description of my son! He has had two reports done, a few years apart, both confirming that he does have all the characteristics of Asperger's.

 

With my youngest son he does not totally fit the description of any one condition, so I couldn't possibly decide for myself what he has. Other people's posts reflect aspects of my son's behaviour and difficulties, so even without a diagnosis it is very useful for hints, tips, ideas and information, and sometimes some straightforward sympathy. Thanks to everybody !!