Here we go again!!!!

[josie h]

I haven't been around for a awhile coz things had started to improve. C was taken out of mainstream school where he was having lots of probs. he is 14. LA were unable to find him a place in our county - Herts, so applied for a school in Cambs. At the moment he is in a respite school where he is doing really well. they have had no probs with him. There are 12 children in the unit, with only 4 in each group and ratio of a teacher and a TA in each group. unfortunatly this is only a temporary solution.

Anyway, we were waiting for the panel meeting from Cambs and I have now heard that they have not accepted him because the school Herts named is for children with social and emotional difficulties, not ASD!!!

We are now back to square one. C has no place in a school for September when he will start year 10. Herts have no provision for children with high functioning Autism and I am not convinced that a mainsetream school will be the right place for him. He is doing fine where he is, but it is a totally different environment to a mainstream school.

Herts LA have not even had the decency to contact me, they just sent me a copy of the letter from Cambs!!

I now have to wait to see what school they come up with!!

Don't really know what else to do. Anyone got any ideas?

[Karen A]

Hi.Ben is going to mainstream secondary in September so I do not have personal experience.

However I think there are a few Forum members who have been able to obtain funding via a Statement for placement in independent specialist schools.I gather it is fairly usual for LAs to put up a fight.However it can be done.I don't know whether there are any in Cambs or Herts but I hope someone might be along before long who does.

Karen.

 

[Sally44]

I haven't been around for a awhile coz things had started to improve. C was taken out of mainstream school where he was having lots of probs. he is 14. LA were unable to find him a place in our county - Herts, so applied for a school in Cambs. At the moment he is in a respite school where he is doing really well. they have had no probs with him. There are 12 children in the unit, with only 4 in each group and ratio of a teacher and a TA in each group. unfortunatly this is only a temporary solution.

Anyway, we were waiting for the panel meeting from Cambs and I have now heard that they have not accepted him because the school Herts named is for children with social and emotional difficulties, not ASD!!!

We are now back to square one. C has no place in a school for September when he will start year 10. Herts have no provision for children with high functioning Autism and I am not convinced that a mainsetream school will be the right place for him. He is doing fine where he is, but it is a totally different environment to a mainstream school.

Herts LA have not even had the decency to contact me, they just sent me a copy of the letter from Cambs!!

I now have to wait to see what school they come up with!!

Don't really know what else to do. Anyone got any ideas?

 

I think you need to speak with an organisation such as the NAS or IPSEA or ACE to get an idea of what the law is on this type of issue.

I would have thought that the school he is at now, if it has worked, is proof that that is the kind of environment he needs. And surely 'social' and 'emotional' difficulties would be common with a diagnosis of an ASD? Afterall specialist schools for ASD children are usually for children with 'social communication' difficulties or 'behavioural issues'. And I would have thought you need written evidence that this school is the 'nearest suitable school' regardless.

If mainstream didn't work, and this unit did, this current school should be able to do a report for you as his current school placement??

What does the placement say in his Statement? Is he due for an Annual Review soon? Are there grounds for an Emergency Review of the Statement?

Just because your own LA does not have a suitable school place available does not mean that your child therefore HAS to go mainstream. The Statement should be made stronger to be more specific about his needs and the recommendations to meet those needs have to be specific regarding hours of support and staffing levels. When that is a true reflection of your child's difficulties then the 'placement' needed will become clearer.

I'm sure others will post with more specific information. But that is just my personal opinion.

[Kazzen161]

I now have to wait to see what school they come up with!!

Don't really know what else to do. Anyone got any ideas?

 

Do not rely on the LA - they will do as much as possible to delay things. Do you own research - find a suitable school (probably independent specialist) and tell the LA you want it named. If the LA are having trouble finding a school, then they can hardly argue against it.

 

 

[josie h]

I think you need to speak with an organisation such as the NAS or IPSEA or ACE to get an idea of what the law is on this type of issue.

I would have thought that the school he is at now, if it has worked, is proof that that is the kind of environment he needs. And surely 'social' and 'emotional' difficulties would be common with a diagnosis of an ASD? Afterall specialist schools for ASD children are usually for children with 'social communication' difficulties or 'behavioural issues'. And I would have thought you need written evidence that this school is the 'nearest suitable school' regardless.

If mainstream didn't work, and this unit did, this current school should be able to do a report for you as his current school placement??

What does the placement say in his Statement? Is he due for an Annual Review soon? Are there grounds for an Emergency Review of the Statement?

Just because your own LA does not have a suitable school place available does not mean that your child therefore HAS to go mainstream. The Statement should be made stronger to be more specific about his needs and the recommendations to meet those needs have to be specific regarding hours of support and staffing levels. When that is a true reflection of your child's difficulties then the 'placement' needed will become clearer.

I'm sure others will post with more specific information. But that is just my personal opinion.

 

Hi Sally. This is an Emergency Review of C's statement. The school he was in were not coping with him and requested change of provision at the emergency meeting. LA were not very helpful though until school told them that they would have to consider permenantly excluding him fron school. Thanks for the advice anyway.

 

[Karen A]

I think you need to speak with an organisation such as the NAS or IPSEA or ACE to get an idea of what the law is on this type of issue.

I would have thought that the school he is at now, if it has worked, is proof that that is the kind of environment he needs. And surely 'social' and 'emotional' difficulties would be common with a diagnosis of an ASD? Afterall specialist schools for ASD children are usually for children with 'social communication' difficulties or 'behavioural issues'. And I would have thought you need written evidence that this school is the 'nearest suitable school' regardless.

If mainstream didn't work, and this unit did, this current school should be able to do a report for you as his current school placement??

What does the placement say in his Statement? Is he due for an Annual Review soon? Are there grounds for an Emergency Review of the Statement?

Just because your own LA does not have a suitable school place available does not mean that your child therefore HAS to go mainstream. The Statement should be made stronger to be more specific about his needs and the recommendations to meet those needs have to be specific regarding hours of support and staffing levels. When that is a true reflection of your child's difficulties then the 'placement' needed will become clearer.

I'm sure others will post with more specific information. But that is just my personal opinion.

 

Hi Sally.Specialist provision for BESD is usually for children with behavioural social and emotional difficulties.It may be siutable for some children with ASD.However there is usually no specialist input for specific Social Communication Difficulties related to ASD which are often the difficulties that cause the difficult behaviour in ASD.

I am not commenting on Josie because this case may be different.

However in most cases it is extremely important to ensure that support is in place regarding ASD.In some cases as in another thread on the Forum recently a BESD may be completely unsuitable and may make mattters worse.LAs will often suggest a BESD school because they have one and so it would be cheeper than funding specialist provision for ASD.Karen.

 

 

[Sally44]

Josie, have you already had the emergency review?

Has his current placement produced a report towards this?

How do you feel about his current placement. Do you think your son needs an ASD specialist environment with similar staffing levels and a small environment similar to the unit he has been in?

Are there any schools like that in your LA? If not where is the nearest one out of county?

So far mainstream hasn't worked and you have evidence of that. Your LA is responsible for providing a suitable school placement, and for them to use their resources effectively they will go for the nearest suitable one.

You need to prove that the nearest suitable school is XXX and it should be clear from the reports produced by the LEA and NHS staff that that is the level of support and environment your child needs. Is that clear from the reports they have done?

You need to find out about appropriate schools in the surrounding area and go and visit them and speak with the head and SENCO. Some schools will do a short placement assessment to see how the child copes.

Any additional information you can provide that indicates the type of school environment your child needs is useful. Have you already spoken with any of the organisations mentioned?

LAs will usually refuse the placement requested by the parent, and it will probably go to tribunal. But at tribunal the LA has to prove that the school they want to name as the placement is the nearest suitable school. You will be surprised at how many LAs get to tribunal and then capitulate at the last minute and agree to the placement. I would be amazed if your LA did not have some children placed out of county at specialist independent schools, as most LAs do. My own LA has around 5 at a private school costing the council £42,000 each per year per child, and all because they don't provide a suitable school environment for those children.

So, it won't be easy, but it is not impossible. The LA will probably test your determination by forcing you to go to tribunal. So be prepared for that. But the NAS to have a tribunal service to support parents through the process.

What is the advice you have received from the professionals involved with your child regarding placement? What do you think the issues were that caused your child to be excluded? And how do you think his current placement meets those needs? As his previous school are threatening permanent exclusion, that again is evidence that that type of school environment is not working for your son, so if the LA try to name another similar type of school that is not going to solve the problem.

I'm sure others on the forum will give you lots of links to follow up. But do speak with the agencies mentioned above because they are dealing with these types of issues all day long.

[Kathryn]

Sorry to hear this Josie. Unbelievable that you've had to wait this long for a rejection and are still in limbo. For the information of others, there are no schools in Herts which cater for AS/HFA. It's a scandal. Which leaves one looking out of county, but there are few schools within daily travelling distance and I think you said you didn't want your son to go residential. Do you still feel that way?

 

K x

 

 

 

 

[Sally44]

That is awful.

What schooling options are there in situations like this?

[Karen A]

Sorry to hear this Josie. Unbelievable that you've had to wait this long for a rejection and are still in limbo. For the information of others, there are no schools in Herts which cater for AS/HFA. It's a scandal. Which leaves one looking out of county, but there are few schools within daily travelling distance and I think you said you didn't want your son to go residential. Do you still feel that way?

 

K x

 

Thanks for the information re Herts Kathryn.It is a scandal . Karen.

 

[Karen A]

That is awful.

What schooling options are there in situations like this?

 

Hi.I obviously do not have personal experience....just knowledge from hanging out here for a while. :whistle

Some on the Forum have been able to obtain a placement in Specialist provision.Some out of county.There are schools that offer specialist provision for teenagers with HFA/Asperger's syndrome.Some are independent.However most if not all places are funded through a Statement by LAs.

It is frequently an option that parents need to fight for,usually at tribunal.There has to be a case that that specific placement would be the only one that would meet the SEN documented in the Statement.

Some of the provision is residential.To access this sort of provision there needs to be a strong case to support the need for a twenty-four hour curricullum.That is the need for significant support and provision relating to ASD throughout the 24hour period.

If I have made any mistakes in my information please do correct me those with personal experience. Karen.

 

[Sally44]

Josie, i'm not sure i've understood your post correctly.

Are you saying that the unit he goes to in Cambs is ASD specific, and Herts have named as a placement a school with social and emotional difficulties and not ASD specific and therefore he cannot remain in Cambs? And is that type of school named by Herts in the Statement? And as you've just had an emergency review have you signed the revised Statement?

[josie h]

Josie, i'm not sure i've understood your post correctly.

Are you saying that the unit he goes to in Cambs is ASD specific, and Herts have named as a placement a school with social and emotional difficulties and not ASD specific and therefore he cannot remain in Cambs? And is that type of school named by Herts in the Statement? And as you've just had an emergency review have you signed the revised Statement?

 

Hi Sally, sorry I know this is quite ard to explain. We had a statement review at the end of November where C was in a mainstream school in Cambs. We still did not have a decision in early Feb and school called another review meeting where they requested change of provision. LA felt they were not able to find another school quickly for C and school in Cambs felt that they needed an immediate solution due to some serious behavioural probs. Herts LA then moved C into the respite unit in Herts. This is a unit for any child at risk of exclusion from school. The unit have told me that he is not the type of child they usually have there. At the moment I don't know what is on the statement. I have still not had a revised statement since December, I guess they were waiting to put a named school on it. I have not seen or signed any statement since May last year. School in Cambs have consistently asked Herts LA for support for C and stated that they did not feel they were meeting his needs.

 

I have heard nothing from Herts, they just sent me a copy of the letter from Cambs saying that the school they had applied for had been declined. They didn't even put a note in with the letter!! I have left a message but not received a reply yet either. So at the moment I really don't know what's happening. The unit C is in in Herts feel that he should be in a mainstrem school but that it would have to be one that can manage his needs correctly as they feel his difficulties were made worse at the previuos school due to miss management. He is really enjoying being in the unit but again, I feel this is because it is very small, lots of good, positive attention and little distraction for him. The only school with a specialist unit attached that is near me is in Beds, but they only have 6 places and they are full!!!!!

 

There must be other people out there that face this problem as well. Just because he is an able child who finds socialising difficult, means that there is no specialist provision for him and that he could end up with no proper education as he will be so stressed out at school again that we will be back to square one again!!!

 

It is extremely frustrationg and there seems to be no one out there who can give me any advice or even suggest a school that would suit him. I guess I'll have to keep fighting, but there's only so much fight left in me, I have my eldest duaghter doing her GCSE's at the moment.

 

 

 

[Karen A]

Hi Sally, sorry I know this is quite ard to explain. We had a statement review at the end of November where C was in a mainstream school in Cambs. We still did not have a decision in early Feb and school called another review meeting where they requested change of provision. LA felt they were not able to find another school quickly for C and school in Cambs felt that they needed an immediate solution due to some serious behavioural probs. Herts LA then moved C into the respite unit in Herts. This is a unit for any child at risk of exclusion from school. The unit have told me that he is not the type of child they usually have there. At the moment I don't know what is on the statement. I have still not had a revised statement since December, I guess they were waiting to put a named school on it. I have not seen or signed any statement since May last year. School in Cambs have consistently asked Herts LA for support for C and stated that they did not feel they were meeting his needs.

 

I have heard nothing from Herts, they just sent me a copy of the letter from Cambs saying that the school they had applied for had been declined. They didn't even put a note in with the letter!! I have left a message but not received a reply yet either. So at the moment I really don't know what's happening. The unit C is in in Herts feel that he should be in a mainstrem school but that it would have to be one that can manage his needs correctly as they feel his difficulties were made worse at the previuos school due to miss management. He is really enjoying being in the unit but again, I feel this is because it is very small, lots of good, positive attention and little distraction for him. The only school with a specialist unit attached that is near me is in Beds, but they only have 6 places and they are full!!!!!

 

There must be other people out there that face this problem as well. Just because he is an able child who finds socialising difficult, means that there is no specialist provision for him and that he could end up with no proper education as he will be so stressed out at school again that we will be back to square one again!!!

 

It is extremely frustrationg and there seems to be no one out there who can give me any advice or even suggest a school that would suit him. I guess I'll have to keep fighting, but there's only so much fight left in me, I have my eldest duaghter doing her GCSE's at the moment.

 

 

 

<'> <'> <'> I have very little advice to offer.However I am sure that you are not the only one in this situation.I think it is fairly likely that we could end up in a similar situation at some point.Ben is very bright and accademically able.He would not be happy or able to recieve an education suited to his needs at the school within our area for 11-16 year olds with ASD.Specialist provision in our area is actually excellent.Teenagers from other boroughs have the school named on their Statements.

However all of the provision for 11-16s with AS or who would be able to sit GCSES is within huge mainstream comprehensives.There are no smaller units.

Fortunately some of the comprehensive schools do have experience in AS.They also benefit from some good support from ASD outreach teachers based at the specialist school.

However I still feel quite anxious about transition to secondary.Ben is currently in a one class entry primary with about 220 pupils.The comprehensive he will be attending has about the same number in each year group.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Karen A

[Flora]

To access this sort of provision there needs to be a strong case to support the need for a twenty-four hour curricullum.That is the need for significant support and provision relating to ASD throughout the 24hour period.

If I have made any mistakes in my information please do correct me those with personal experience. Karen.

 

Hi Karen, hope you don't mind me pointing out that there is a way round this. If you can't prove a need (or there isn't a need) for 24 hour curriculum but there is no other suitable provision within reasonable travelling distance, then that presents a practical need for a residential placement. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

Flo' XX

 

[Karen A]

Hi Karen, hope you don't mind me pointing out that there is a way round this. If you can't prove a need (or there isn't a need) for 24 hour curriculum but there is no other suitable provision within reasonable travelling distance, then that presents a practical need for a residential placement. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

Flo' XX

 

Thanks Flo. I don't mind at all.I thought that others like yourself with personal experience might need to help me out.Hence the request that you correct me if needed. Karen.

 

[Sally44]

What type of school did Cambs apply for that has been turned down?

It also sounds like the LA are not keeping to the timescale requirements in revising/amending the Statement??

Is a residential specialist ASD school completely out of the question?

Is moving house to an area that does have a suitable school completely out of the question?

Is home schooling an option?

The fact that your LA does not have anything suitable doesn't mean you have to take what is available.

Are there any private ASD schools in your area?

This is only my opinion, but I think concentrating on the Statement and making sure that it is as specific as possible regarding hours of support and staffing levels, and learning environment, and therapies that your child needs, and who does the therapies etc etc is a good way to go. For example, if your child 'needs' to be taught in small groups (of around 6-8 pupils), then that is what has to be provided, even if that is in a mainstream school. If he cannot cope with breaktimes and dinnertimes then he needs to have therapy and input from a SALT (if that is the professional they use in your LA) to improve their speech and social communication skills. The child would need to be taught social skills and those skills would have to be generalised into the classroom and playground, using an assessment system such as SCERTS.

If your child cannot cope with breaktimes, dinnertimes and assemblies as per mainstream school, then that is also a need and the school would have to have staffing provision so that he didn't have to take part in those activities and there would need to be a suitably qualified adult with him during those times. If that is what it takes to make a mainstream environment work then that is what has to be provided through funding by the LA. Sometimes, when the cost of all that is added up, it is actually a better use of resources to pay the fees of a private school who have all the extra professionals needed on site.

But you would have to gather written evidence of this and that may involve private reports and a solicitor and that costs money. It is not impossible to do it yourself with support from the NAS, IPSEA or ACE. But if your aim is to get the Statement right so that it fits your child's needs, then whatever the placement, it is going to be better than a weak statement in a mainstream school.

I really don't know what is available in your area. But there must be HFA and AS children out there somewhere, and from past experience, through parental word of mouth, there tends to be one or two mainstream schools that have the majority of those pupils regardless of the fact that they are called mainstream. Is there a local parent support group? If there is, and you don't currently go to it, speak to the contact parent and find out about which schools those parents are sending their children to.

 

[josie h]

Thanks for all he advice everyone. I have done a bit of research and am now on the case. I am waiting for LA to get back to me because they were going to challenge Cambs about decision there. they told me they didn't specify a school, but asking for ASD provision in Cambs. If this doesn't get anywhere they are coming back into Herts and are now considering independant provision instead as they also feel mainstream will not work.

 

Josie.

 

What type of school did Cambs apply for that has been turned down?

It also sounds like the LA are not keeping to the timescale requirements in revising/amending the Statement??

Is a residential specialist ASD school completely out of the question?

Is moving house to an area that does have a suitable school completely out of the question?

Is home schooling an option?

The fact that your LA does not have anything suitable doesn't mean you have to take what is available.

Are there any private ASD schools in your area?

This is only my opinion, but I think concentrating on the Statement and making sure that it is as specific as possible regarding hours of support and staffing levels, and learning environment, and therapies that your child needs, and who does the therapies etc etc is a good way to go. For example, if your child 'needs' to be taught in small groups (of around 6-8 pupils), then that is what has to be provided, even if that is in a mainstream school. If he cannot cope with breaktimes and dinnertimes then he needs to have therapy and input from a SALT (if that is the professional they use in your LA) to improve their speech and social communication skills. The child would need to be taught social skills and those skills would have to be generalised into the classroom and playground, using an assessment system such as SCERTS.

If your child cannot cope with breaktimes, dinnertimes and assemblies as per mainstream school, then that is also a need and the school would have to have staffing provision so that he didn't have to take part in those activities and there would need to be a suitably qualified adult with him during those times. If that is what it takes to make a mainstream environment work then that is what has to be provided through funding by the LA. Sometimes, when the cost of all that is added up, it is actually a better use of resources to pay the fees of a private school who have all the extra professionals needed on site.

But you would have to gather written evidence of this and that may involve private reports and a solicitor and that costs money. It is not impossible to do it yourself with support from the NAS, IPSEA or ACE. But if your aim is to get the Statement right so that it fits your child's needs, then whatever the placement, it is going to be better than a weak statement in a mainstream school.

I really don't know what is available in your area. But there must be HFA and AS children out there somewhere, and from past experience, through parental word of mouth, there tends to be one or two mainstream schools that have the majority of those pupils regardless of the fact that they are called mainstream. Is there a local parent support group? If there is, and you don't currently go to it, speak to the contact parent and find out about which schools those parents are sending their children to.

 

[bid]

Just to let you know that we are Herts, and although it was 5 years ago now we did get a place at a residential special school for AS/HFA school run by the Priory Group down in Somerset.

 

So don't let them tell you they don't place children with ASD out of county, as I seem to remember they told Kathryn!

 

Good luck!

 

Bid

Edited May 17, 2009 by bid

[josie h]

Just to let you know that we are Herts, and although it was 5 years ago now we did get a place at a residential special school for AS/HFA school run by the Priory Group down in Somerset.

 

So don't let them tell you they don't place children with ASD out of county, as I seem to remember they told Kathryn!

 

Good luck!

 

Bid

 

 

I know that they always try to find the cheapest option. I think they are worrying now though because this has been going on since January and we still have had no school named. The unit C is in only usually take children for a maximum of 6 weeks. He has now been there for 6 weeks and I know they desperately need the place so I expect that they are putting the LA under pressure as well. I think they also realise that I won't just accept a place because I think its the only option available. I have put it in writing that I feel that the LA have let me son down already, so I'm guessing that they're watching their backs as I am sure I have a good reason to put in an official complaint against them. They are not meeting my sons needs at the moment because although he is in a placement, this is only a temporary arrangement and the unit has already told me that they wouldn't normally take a child with C's needs.

 

I will keep fighting this and I will not let them talk me into doing anything I'm not happy with. I will insist that everything goes on paper.

 

Thanks

Josie.

[bid]

Don't know if it's the same person these days, but we had a huge amount of help and support from the Out of County Placements Officer. She suggested schools for us to investigate, and came up with the school my son eventually attended.

 

PM me if you haven't already talked to her and I'll pass on her name. She was happy to help us even before the Statement was finalised and before his papers went to the provision and funding panels, etc.

 

Bid