Part time-back to biting

[skye]

Well my DD has just been moved to 3 half days a week at school. She has decided after over 6months of being bite free to start biting again. Actually a lot of her behaviours have regressed lately. I truly think this is due to her not wanting to attend school anymore. She would bite and then say, "can I go home now?" Somewhere down the line someone said to her that if she continued biting that she would be excluded so her being clever has put 2 and 2 together. I feel like the school have rewarded her for her bad behaviour which may cause more in the future. She had a huge smile on her face when I explained she was going part time now. You gotta hand it to her though. She problem solved that one pretty good. I am still thinking about homeschool and have a couple of days a week to try it now.

[jordansmum33ok]

hi Skye,

my son 12 behaviours always rotate..

he will stop for a while but they always comeback.. biting spitting, kicking.. few months break then back again.

 

Also he was told from early age by school if you carry on you will have to go home.. yea thanks

 

i just continue telling him that its wrong to have these behaviours..

he is currently home tutored by school 2hrs a week..

 

hope things get better for you

 

 

[Sally44]

Yes, my son is quick on the uptake as well.

But his trick is to vomit so he gets sent home for 48 hours!!

It is so frustrating because our children are not bothered about peer pressure, and don't have that need to please their teacher or parents. They hate school, and are given explanations by school staff (inadvertently of course) of what they have to do to get out of it.

I would talk to school about it (as I am preparing to talk to my son's school about it). As you say, it is reinforcing bad behaviour. Not quite sure how i'm going to put it yet though.

Is there any other professional you can talk to who can give you and school some advice on this?

[jordansmum33ok]

lol i just told them straight "tell him what he wants to hear... great"

[skye]

Yeah husband said at the impromptu meeting that they were just giving her what she wanted. They basically said that she desperately needs one to one student support and until her statement comes through next school year that they cannot cope with her behaviour. I am happy to have her at home to be honest. I am going to deperately try to homeschool her the best I can. At least I have the opportunity to find out if I can cope without having to fully withdraw her from school. Next year promises to be better at school with one to one support and the SENCO is actually the year 1 teacher so that might help a lot!! Thanks for taking the time to reply. It's always nice to know you are not the only one and that there are people close by in the same boat.

Edited May 19, 2009 by skye

[Karen A]

Yeah husband said at the impromptu meeting that they were just giving her what she wanted. They basically said that she desperately needs one to one student support and until her statement comes through next school year that they cannot cope with her behaviour. I am happy to have her at home to be honest. I am going to deperately try to homeschool her the best I can. At least I have the opportunity to find out if I can cope without having to fully withdraw her from school. Next year promises to be better at school with one to one support and the SENCO is actually the year 1 teacher so that might help a lot!! Thanks for taking the time to reply. It's always nice to know you are not the only one and that there are people close by in the same boat.

 

Hi Skye.I am not sure if my understanding is correct so thought it worth making sure.

Are you planning to home educate until the Statement is sorted ?

If so do you have any gaurentee that the LA will go ahead with the Statement ?

Also can you be sure that a school place will be available ?

In my area once a child is deregistered the school place is given up.Although the school may have a place there is no gaurentee if someone else fills the place.

If I am understanding you I am not sure how you can homeschool and not withdraw your daughter from school and not risk difficulties with EWO ??

If school are saying that they cannot cope with your daughters behaviour then they need to exclude her and request alternative provision from the LA.That would be the only legal option open to them as far as I understand.I am confused and am concerned that the school or LA may not follow through on verbal suggestions leaving you in a difficult situation.

Edited to add.Are you talking about the next couple of days while your daughter is excluded ? If so then I do understand.

However do make sure that at least the exclusion is documented officially so that evideance is provided re why a Statement is needed.

Edited again it is late for me.

How are the school explaining the three and a half day week ? I am not sure they can do that legally either if your daughter is school age ?

They have a duty to provide a full time education unless a child is excluded or perhaps it is agreed that part time is needed for recognised medical reasons such as recovery from illness.

 

I don't intend to be negative if you feel things will work.I just don't want you to find that people leave you in a difficult situation.Karen.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Karen A

[skye]

Hi Karen, I am not exactly sure what is going on completely about home educating. I would like to home educate but have been back and forth about whether or not the school could provide a suitable provision for Libby until her statement is finalized and whether I should just ride it out as the statement should be done for October supposedly.

The school now have moved Lib down to 3/ half days per week. As in 3 mornings and that is it. We have discussed it with the school who seem to agree with me that Lib and the current teacher are not on the same page and have a lot of misunderstandings. Due to Lib's recent regression into biting and attacking other students everyone involved including Ed. Psych feel that a part-time timetable until the end of this school year would be suitable. They have said that starting next year they would like to have her back at full time from the start. I am very weary as to whether they will ever be able to "cope" or bend to Lib's way of thinking. Unfortunately for Lib people seem to have a very set idea on what they want from 5 year old children. Personally all I want to see is my daughter with a big smile on her face and less negativity being thrown her way!

**I just read my previous message and understand why I am so confusing!. Yes I am going to attempt to home school Lib for the 3 afternoons and 2 full days that she will not be attending regular class. I have been so concerned and worried about what it might be like. I am almost thankful to have this chance to get a taste of doing it at a part-time level to see how I feel about possibly doing it full time in the future. School are planning to have Lib back in September so if she is missing the social aspect or if I feel I can't cope on my own then we just start school as planned in September. Hope that clears it all up. I am half asleep too!!

[Mum of 3]

Hi Skye,

 

Just wanted to agree with Karen really. I read your latest post earlier this evening and I've been thinking about it ever since. It seems as if school is meeting you halfway and giving you the opportunity to 'practice' homeschooling before making the decision. Unfortunately, I have several concerns:

1. The school has a legal obligation to provide full time education for all pupils of school age.

2. If your DD is away from school for partof the week, the school will not have to deal with her difficulties full-time. This may seem like a good idea for them (and of course, it sounds good to you-your DD isn't going to be under stress at school for that time!), but in reality they are just putting off the inevitable-that it must be dealt with.

3. You are legally oblidged to ensure your child attends school full time. Without having it in writing that the school has asked you to take her out, they could blame her poor attendence on you in the future. Schools are 'judged' on their attendance figures, so unless they are intending to lie, and say she's attending school when she's at home with you, this will make a huge dint in their figures.

4. I think you need to think very hard about the message you're sending out to DD. Are you sure she won't just take this to mean that her biting has got her what she wants?

5. Will she cope with being at home for part of the week and at school some of the time? will her behaviour at school become so bad that they can't cope with her at all? will they then say she has to be excluded?

6. will she get confused about where she's going each morning? Will this make her more anxious and bring on more challenging behaviour?

 

In any case, I think I'd be inclined to make no decision until I'd taken advice, and had everything in writing from the school. Have you considered just keeping her off 'sick' until after the half term holiday? It would give you both some breathing space.

 

I would really strongly advise you to contact the Local Authority and speak to someone from the inclusion team. I have a name somewhere if you want to PM me tomorrow (going to bed now!).

 

Good luck Skye. Hang in there. xxx <'> <'>

[Cat]

 

If the school has agreed to the part time schooling the chances are that they will not be marking the child down as being absent. This is a similar situation to when a child is sent home for whatever reason and it is not put into writing. That is called an illegal exclusion. The school has probably talked this through with someone in the LA at least they should have done. If both parties are happy with the agreement, parent and school, then I suppose that there is not really an issue however wrong it may be. This could well be the school's way of trying to make sure that there as much support as possible written into the statement.

 

I am a home educator and have been for many years now. I removed my youngest from school because he developed something called Cyclical Vomiting Syndrome (they were not meeting his needs) and he was really quite ill with it requiring hospital treatment on several occasions. We were told by a consultant that stress and anxiety can trigger this illness and we were quite sure that it was something that our son had no control over. Had I at any point felt that he was using the vomiting simply because he did not want to attend school then I would of played things quite differently. I think what I am trying to say is that if you decided to home educate your daughter do so because it is something you want to do. (Even if the reason behind that choice is because the system is not meeting her needs) If your daughter goes into home education thinking that it is a battle that she has won with both school and yourself you could be in for a very rough ride. I am someone who truly does believe that children should not continue to attend a school that is not meeting their needs and that they are suffering as a result of this. But I also know how difficult it is to regain the power from an autistic child who believes that they can win battles by simply engaging in some unacceptable behaviour. Been there and done that with my eldest autistic son and take the power base off him was not an easy task.

 

Cat

 

 

[connieruff]

I find this quite upsetting, when a child exhibits such a strong reaction to school, like biting and vomiting, this can only mean they are under severe stress. What on earth is going on in these schools? I would be tempted to ask to help out in the classroom, or help out at lunchtimes. Also now the summer holidays are coming up see how you get on with the schooling at home.

In my experience bullying goes on under the teachers nose day in and day out and they don't notice. The bullying started for my son at playgroup, and was noticed by the experienced lovely Class 1 teacher when they started school, and she said it was quite bad. It restarted in Class 2.

C

[Karen A]

Morning Skye.I am a bit more awake now.

 

I can fully understand why you feel the way that you do.I am just worried that in taking your daughter out of school for some of the week you are allowing the school to avoid their legal obligations.

 

I have experience of various strategies taken by school with both of my sons.My elder son [NT] has always been very well behaved.However he started having panic attacks in year 6.We would either not be able to persuade J to leave the house or he would get to school only to be too anxious and be sent home again.School provided no support at all.We were the ones having to struggle every day.The school teacher at the time then reminded me of my obligation to secure school attendance.We had no evidence that we had been attempting to get J to school.Fortunately we were known to CAMHS who supported us.J is fine now.However I learned that school can and will ensure that they do not get in trouble with the LA .

 

The bottom line is that school have a legal obligation to provide a full time education for your daughter unless you decide to home educate.

There are only two options that the LA have available to legally not provide a full time education.

One is that your daughter is mentally or physically too unwell to attend school.

The second is that your daughter is excluded for behaviour which could include biting.However each exclusion would need to be documented and would need to be in response to a specific incident.

There is no third category under the label SEN provision is not adequate for school to cope or the teacher cannot manage.If school cannot manage which they may not be able to then they need to document each exclusion and build up evidence for more support.

 

I am just worried that you may be unwittingly becoming involved in a behaviour modification programme where your daughter learns that by biting she can be rewarded.

Like CAT I have had experiences of unwittingly handing over control.

 

When Ben was three or four it was not too much of a problem.Now Ben is 10 and the tallest in the school.It is extremely difficult to manage Ben when he decides to ignore me or refuses to do what I ask.Fortunately Ben is much less challenging at school now.If he wished he could cause havock.

I look back and knowing what I know now I would have been much firmer much sooner.

Regardless of anything else we ended up needing to protect our elder son who has always been very supportive of Ben.Once Ben learned that if he was challenging enough he could get his own way he quickly used the same approach with his brother.Things are much better now.However it was very difficult having to express concerns about the wellbeing of our elder son because we could not manage Ben.

Karen.

 

[skye]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I believe the best thing for me to do is contact the Parent Partnership about this matter. I didn't realize that the school were obligated and that by making this outside agreement with me that it could drop them in it. I fully believe that the school will have to appear to be following the rules and would not hesitate to turn the decision around to being my idea. The Educational Psychologist was actually the one who recommended this be the case. I am in agreement about the reinforcement of bad behaviour, luckily as of yet this has not started with me. I think she understands exactly where I am coming from and wouldn't chance it. I can take away Club Penguin and TV in a shot and she doesn't like that! The school however now, I really think that they are going to have to watch their backs because she has got their number and they have just reinforced this behaviour. The only thing I can do is try to manage it from my end and hope that it doesn't continue at school. Maybe they are hoping for full exclusion. They have turned that little phrase to me a couple of times now. I really wish they would put 2 and 2 together and realize that I am not the one to be messed with, but they will learn soon enough! Off to the Orthopedist today to pick up day splints, poor thing. When the Doctor said she would have to wear them to school she just looked and said OH NO!!!! Now they will have more things to make fun of. I hate school too!!!!!

[Karen A]

Hi again Skye.

I will find the ACE link on exclusion for you.It may well be worth reading through it so that you are aware of your rights.

ACE also operate an excellent exclusion advice line.It may well be worth phoning them for some individual advice.

NAS and IPSEA are also very good.

If school did decide to go through with full formal exclusion then you would have a right to appeal.The LA would also be involved and would have to support you in finding alternative provision.It would reflect very badly on the school if they permanently excluded a five year old with SEN .

To put it bluntly the school may be very happy to make threats,use illegal exclusion,encourage you to offer some alternative provision,hope that you will decide to home educate or hope that you decide to move your child [which is what I was told to do. ] rather than exclude your child permanently.

It is actually quite difficult for schools to permanently exclude pupils now especially those with SEN.Parents also have a lot of rights.

However short term exclusions and illegal exclusions are increasing because there are fewer controls regarding exclusions of less than five days.

There was an interesting article in the paper that I posted a link to.I will find it.

As far as I can see you are being invited to allow school to illegally exclude your daughter for a significant proportion of every week for the remainder of the school year....whilst not making any alternative provision.

Sounds like a very good deal for school to me. Karen.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Karen A

[Karen A]

The link for ACE and also for IPSEA and NAS are all on this thread on the first page.

The ACE information on PDF is on there too and is very good.

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=21112

[Karen A]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educatio...on-1684039.html

This is the Newspaper article that I mentioned.It may be interesting reading.Karen.

[skye]

Thanks a lot Karen. Will check out the links.