AS and lack of empathy

[scoops]

I was just wanting to guage opinion on AS and the perceived lack of empathy. From my own personal experience, I often don't really know what to do when someone is upset, probably because I haven't seen that they are getting upset. Often my initial reaction can be frustration or even anger, totally inappropriate I know. However, after I have thought about the situation for some time, usually a few hours later, I can see why the person is / has been upset. So my point is that for me, there is empathy there, it just doesn't work in "real time". Does any one else have a view on this? or is it just me

[Sally44]

I have an 8 year old autistic son, and I would agree with what you are saying.

I think there can be a number of things that might make it difficult for someone on the spectrum to understand a situation or be able to express empathy in a way that others would recognise. But I don't necessarily think that 'empathy' is missings in those with an ASD. As you say, it might take much longer to process the information to understand the situation the other person is in. Or there might be difficulties with understanding the outcomes of certain situations and therefore they cannot 'see' the end situation and what that might mean for the other person. For my own son, if he does not understand a situation and I explain it to him he is then perfectly capable of expressing empathy.

Or there can be problems or difficulties with 'connections' or generalisation ie. they cannot apply something learnt (eg. they felt empathy for a certain person in a certain situation) into a similar but different situation.

As you have, they may struggle to read voice tone or facial expression in others, and in return their own voice tone or facial expression might not 'fit' empathy from an NT's point of view.

[scoops]

I have an 8 year old autistic son, and I would agree with what you are saying.

I think there can be a number of things that might make it difficult for someone on the spectrum to understand a situation or be able to express empathy in a way that others would recognise. But I don't necessarily think that 'empathy' is missings in those with an ASD. As you say, it might take much longer to process the information to understand the situation the other person is in. Or there might be difficulties with understanding the outcomes of certain situations and therefore they cannot 'see' the end situation and what that might mean for the other person. For my own son, if he does not understand a situation and I explain it to him he is then perfectly capable of expressing empathy.

Or there can be problems or difficulties with 'connections' or generalisation ie. they cannot apply something learnt (eg. they felt empathy for a certain person in a certain situation) into a similar but different situation.

As you have, they may struggle to read voice tone or facial expression in others, and in return their own voice tone or facial expression might not 'fit' empathy from an NT's point of view.

 

Thanks for the affirmation, I genuinely do feel upset for things I've done or said that have upset people, but the time delay that is involved, makes for a difficult situation, whereby, I might want to atone for what I've done, but the other person has moved on, and doesn't want the situation raked up again. Their opinion of me is that certainly at the time I was an uncaring unsympathetic **** Hmmm, it's an awkward one.

[Tally]

Hi Scoops,

 

I am an adult with AS, and I have a lot of similar experiences where I realise later what was expected of me or think of things I could have said or done to help.

 

It does make me look like I don't care or want to help. I only hope that people who know me well will try to see me in a positive light and not jump to the worst conclusions all of the time.

 

But people with AS don't necessarily have a complete absence of empathy, what we have is an impairment.

 

We are also working it out in a different way, through logical/intellectual thinking rather than intuitive thought. It is understandable that it would take longer to work it out when using the 'wrong' type of thinking pattern.

[Mumble]

We are also working it out in a different way, through logical/intellectual thinking rather than intuitive thought.

 

For my own son, if he does not understand a situation and I explain it to him he is then perfectly capable of expressing empathy.

 

In 'having to work it out' (I agree with Tally on this) are we actually expressing empathy or expressing an expression of empathy?

 

Empathy, by its very definition, is an intuitive/subconscious and fairly instant process. Time delay and logical/rational thinking would therefore suggest that what we are doing is not actually 'true' empathy at all. Perhaps some clever person needs to research a theory of primary empathy (the more 'normal' type) and secondary empathy (the more 'logical' type) - and we could all have elements of both as I'm sure there are NTs who have been empathetic and later wished they hadn't or wish they had done things differently or been able to cover up or not give an intuitive facial-expression reaction maybe?

 

[tjw]

hi scoops

i have a 6 yr old asd child and he has no understanding at all to do with people being upset or empathy, example; we have just been to our local postoffice where one of the mums from school works and she was telling him about her dd who is in the same class she broke both her arms on friday and all ds son could say was can i have that sponge bob card to her, if he see people crying he will ask me why water is coming from their eyes, if his friend crys he say what a baby, he just dosnt get it.

theresa

[scoops]

hi scoops

i have a 6 yr old asd child and he has no understanding at all to do with people being upset or empathy, example; we have just been to our local postoffice where one of the mums from school works and she was telling him about her dd who is in the same class she broke both her arms on friday and all ds son could say was can i have that sponge bob card to her, if he see people crying he will ask me why water is coming from their eyes, if his friend crys he say what a baby, he just dosnt get it.

theresa

 

 

Hmm, yes, I used to be like that, I would not be bothered by other people hurting themselves, or going through emotional pain when I was young. However, now I'm older, I do eventually see others distress, but sadly not in the right timescale. I don't know, as I'm certainly no expert, but I think your son will eventually recognise these things.

 

Thing is your son gets entire and unequivocal love from yourself, but the transition from child to adult often brings on massive problems. Absolutely no fault of your own I hasten to add. Can't really express what I mean. Take care.

 

( I think thaqt a dreadful reply BTW.....)

 

[darky]

Hi Scoops,

 

I am an adult with AS, and I have a lot of similar experiences where I realise later what was expected of me or think of things I could have said or done to help.

 

It does make me look like I don't care or want to help. I only hope that people who know me well will try to see me in a positive light and not jump to the worst conclusions all of the time.

 

But people with AS don't necessarily have a complete absence of empathy, what we have is an impairment.

 

We are also working it out in a different way, through logical/intellectual thinking rather than intuitive thought. It is understandable that it would take longer to work it out when using the 'wrong' type of thinking pattern.

 

I 100% agree with what you say Tally. I know they say lack of Empathy, but I do not agree with that statement at all, just show it different. I know in my case, it's been exactly the same. People hint and huff and I have absolutely no idea why at the time. Later on, after my head has whizzed at 100 miles an hour after processing everything, the penny might drop, but often it's too late. For me, it's not knowing what to say or how to say it because so many times people have been offended by what I say, and that gets frustrating because they huff and it causes me so much anxiety and energy to work out why. Sometimes I feel like I speak another language and others do too. Sometimes I think people expect a reaction or compliment from me, or want me to do something for them by hinting, and I might think about it, but I don't think to to say it unless I am asked directly, despite thinking next time I will. It just doesn't come natural to me.

 

I end up getting frustrated and I get cross with people as well scoops, as I find that people have expectations of me being a mind reader and I am not! The one thing I hate more than anything is when people second guess my intentions or thoughts as more often than not they are wrong. I do get really upset about this, because if only they DID know what goes on in my head, they might think differently. I have lost many friends and even family that think I don't care or have empathy, but the truth is, I do care, and I do empathise, I just don't show it the same.

 

Empathy is an emotion that's all. Some people can show it immediately and know what to say and how to say it. For some, the Empathy is there but it's just not shown the same, and people assume no empathy. It is like a smile but no lips

 

I like the film Adams Family Values. I relate to Wednesday Adams when her and her brother are sent to summer camp and forced to join in. Wednesday is encouraged to give a smile and she does try but under force and it doesn't look real or sincere. I feel that society feels like that summer camp and I am Wednesday being forced to fit, and doing it awkwardly because it doesn't come natural. I am 36 years old and still learning. All this pressure on people like us, the accusations and the arguments, half the time I think it's an empathy problem with them because people should understand that everyone is different!!

[scoops]

I 100% agree with what you say Tally. I know they say lack of Empathy, but I do not agree with that statement at all, just show it different. I know in my case, it's been exactly the same. People hint and huff and I have absolutely no idea why at the time. Later on, after my head has whizzed at 100 miles an hour after processing everything, the penny might drop, but often it's too late. For me, it's not knowing what to say or how to say it because so many times people have been offended by what I say, and that gets frustrating because they huff and it causes me so much anxiety and energy to work out why. Sometimes I feel like I speak another language and others do too. Sometimes I think people expect a reaction or compliment from me, or want me to do something for them by hinting, and I might think about it, but I don't think to to say it unless I am asked directly, despite thinking next time I will. It just doesn't come natural to me.

 

I end up getting frustrated and I get cross with people as well scoops, as I find that people have expectations of me being a mind reader and I am not! The one thing I hate more than anything is when people second guess my intentions or thoughts as more often than not they are wrong. I do get really upset about this, because if only they DID know what goes on in my head, they might think differently. I have lost many friends and even family that think I don't care or have empathy, but the truth is, I do care, and I do empathise, I just don't show it the same.

 

Empathy is an emotion that's all. Some people can show it immediately and know what to say and how to say it. For some, the Empathy is there but it's just not shown the same, and people assume no empathy. It is like a smile but no lips

 

I like the film Adams Family Values. I relate to Wednesday Adams when her and her brother are sent to summer camp and forced to join in. Wednesday is encouraged to give a smile and she does try but under force and it doesn't look real or sincere. I feel that society feels like that summer camp and I am Wednesday being forced to fit, and doing it awkwardly because it doesn't come natural. I am 36 years old and still learning. All this pressure on people like us, the accusations and the arguments, half the time I think it's an empathy problem with them because people should understand that everyone is different!!

 

 

 

To tjw, just read my reply I meant my reply was dreadful (as in dreadfully worded), not yours, doh! Can't even get electronic stuff right ... sorry!

Edited July 19, 2009 by scoops

[scoops]

I 100% agree with what you say Tally. I know they say lack of Empathy, but I do not agree with that statement at all, just show it different. I know in my case, it's been exactly the same. People hint and huff and I have absolutely no idea why at the time. Later on, after my head has whizzed at 100 miles an hour after processing everything, the penny might drop, but often it's too late. For me, it's not knowing what to say or how to say it because so many times people have been offended by what I say, and that gets frustrating because they huff and it causes me so much anxiety and energy to work out why. Sometimes I feel like I speak another language and others do too. Sometimes I think people expect a reaction or compliment from me, or want me to do something for them by hinting, and I might think about it, but I don't think to to say it unless I am asked directly, despite thinking next time I will. It just doesn't come natural to me.

 

I end up getting frustrated and I get cross with people as well scoops, as I find that people have expectations of me being a mind reader and I am not! The one thing I hate more than anything is when people second guess my intentions or thoughts as more often than not they are wrong. I do get really upset about this, because if only they DID know what goes on in my head, they might think differently. I have lost many friends and even family that think I don't care or have empathy, but the truth is, I do care, and I do empathise, I just don't show it the same.

 

Empathy is an emotion that's all. Some people can show it immediately and know what to say and how to say it. For some, the Empathy is there but it's just not shown the same, and people assume no empathy. It is like a smile but no lips

 

I like the film Adams Family Values. I relate to Wednesday Adams when her and her brother are sent to summer camp and forced to join in. Wednesday is encouraged to give a smile and she does try but under force and it doesn't look real or sincere. I feel that society feels like that summer camp and I am Wednesday being forced to fit, and doing it awkwardly because it doesn't come natural. I am 36 years old and still learning. All this pressure on people like us, the accusations and the arguments, half the time I think it's an empathy problem with them because people should understand that everyone is different!!

 

[tjw]

hi scoops

i no what you mean, lol and i must say not looking forward to the teenage transistion yrs but still got a long way to go, he is a bit stressed at momoent dreaded holidays,

takecare

theresa

ps it wasnt a dreadful reply it was a good reply

Edited July 19, 2009 by tjw

[scoops]

from my experience that's when it gets difficult. Personally I started to get interested in, well, you know, around 16, but then realised my social skills were pretty much non existant. That's when the coping strategies kick in. For me it was drinking too much and talking absolute carp for hours on end. A habit now thankfully discarded. I think rather than sugar it though, those are going to be difficult years, and I would guess help for your DS sooner rather than later would be beneficial. Anyhow, enough rot from me. Take care, and I really apologise if my earlier post caused offence, it was simply badly constructed.

[Sally44]

I don't think empathy is 'intuitive'. Surely it is about processing information in real time. Sometimes you have to work with a similar example you already have experienced to evoke the emotions in yourself. Someone who hasn't experienced a similar situation might try to show empathy, but if they have no real understanding of the depth of the emotions etc then they aren't really going to turely understand (and i'm talking about NTs or ASDs here). So if your parent dies, or your marriage breaks up, or you find out you are infertile etc, your friends 'try' to show empathy, but they don't really get it. That is why there are often support groups for people that have been through similar experiences because no-one else does really 'empathise'.

And for those with an ASD, it is probably, like most skills, on a sliding scale ie. from a mild to a severe impairment. But if someone with an ASD has information processing delays, or sensory integration problems etc, then although they might get the information, they cannot process it in real time. Or if they can process it in real time, but don't have the language or social interaction skills, or cannot demonstrate an appropriate voice tone or facial expression to 'match' to the 'situation', then they too are not going to appear to have much empathy, when infact they may have just as much as the next person.

Someone who is blind or deaf might not be able to show empathy in the moment because they cannot get the same information as everyone else is. But when it is explained to them, they can feel empathy. And I do think that in some ways those with an ASD are infact blind or deaf.

Maybe anyone's ability to 'feel' empathy is tied to their 'imagination' skills.

I don't know that the interpretation of empathy is that it has to be an immediate, automatic response to something you see or hear. And for those that don't show empathy because they have processing problems or difficulties predicting outcomes etc, I don't see that the 'difficulty' is not being able to show empathy. Surely the 'difficulty' is not being able to gather and process all the information or not having the cognitive or imaginative skills to follow that process through to see what the outcome is for those people we are supposed to have empathy for. Therefore it maybe more likely to be a 'cognitive' or 'processing' difficulty rather than an 'emotional' difficulty.

I have noticed with my own son that when he watches a film he gets the emotions etc 100% correct all of the time. I think that is because in a film all the information is presented to you. However, in a situation where he is in a group of people etc, then he definately does not get all the information because he frequently 'appears deaf', zones out, becomes distracted by things in the environment has sensory issues etc. So it is not surprising that in those situations he frequently has no idea what is going on around him or even who is in his immediate environment.

[baddad]

I think the only myth bigger than 'all autistic people lack empathy' is 'all neurotypical people have empathy'.

If you think about 'NT' behaviour a great deal of it is based on knowing what's expected in any given situation and responding accordingly - that kind of 'empathy' is not going to be something that comes naturally to many autistic people. Other kinds of behaviour are instinctive or 'emotional' and those kinds of response behaviours (IMO) come as naturally to autistic people as they do to anyone else, although the responses might be 'different' because the processing is different...

Another aspect of 'empathy' would include value judgemments and personal moral/ethical codes of behaviour, and in this I think there would be huge differences in functioning depending on conceptual understanding - it would be difficult for someone whose 'theory of mind' was severely compromised, for example, to understand the impact of their behaviour on a third party. At the 'lower' end of the spectrum (sorry to revert to higher/lower terminology which is incredibly flawed/inaccurate) that could be a huge issue, but at the 'HF/AS end of the spectrum I suspect less so. Additionally, 'moral' and 'ethical' responses (as opposed to emotional ones) are often very black and white, so depending on the information going in (i.e. the moral/ethical 'make-up' of those significant to the autistic person) the autistic person may be more likely to make a more balanced and considered evaluation than someone projecting their own values onto a situation in the guise of 'empathy' or 'instinct'...

If my son knows he's caused me (or anyone else) emotional distress his desire to 'fix' that is (IMO)probably more natural/instinctive/genuine and 'empathetic' than most 11 yr olds. He's just not as adept at reading the signals indicating distress (or, more usually, annoyance, irritation and exhaustion!) or conceptualising the triggers that culminate in those signals!

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

I think I have perfectly 'normal' emotional responses but it usually takes me longer to recognise which emotion I'm feeling, and the same goes for recognising emotions in others.

 

It's also easier and quicker for me to recognise very 'obvious' emotions in others, e.g. anger or great happiness. I struggle far more with more subtle emotions, so if someone appears 'neutral' to me I can't work out if they are pleased or cross with me, which in turn I find unsettling. I guess I need emotions in others to be very clearly 'signposted'.

 

I have also come to realise that I try to systematise human behaviour in an attempt to understand it, which works to a degree, but human behaviour being, er, human, it fails very often to follow established or recognised patterns!

 

I have also learned when an empathetic response is expected or appropriate (systematising again!), even though I may feel nothing inside. But then I have come to suspect this is also true for those who are NT.

 

I also think people confuse sympathy and empathy.

 

Bid

Edited July 20, 2009 by bid

[darky]

I think I have perfectly 'normal' emotional responses but it usually takes me longer to recognise which emotion I'm feeling, and the same goes for recognising emotions in others.

 

It's also easier and quicker for me to recognise very 'obvious' emotions in others, e.g. anger or great happiness. I struggle far more with more subtle emotions, so if someone appears 'neutral' to me I can't work out if they are pleased or cross with me, which in turn I find unsettling. I guess I need emotions in others to be very clearly 'signposted'.

 

I have also come to realise that I try to systematise human behaviour in an attempt to understand it, which works to a degree, but human behaviour being, er, human, it fails very often to follow established or recognised patterns!

 

I have also learned when an empathetic response is expected or appropriate (systematising again!), even though I may feel nothing inside. But then I have come to suspect this is also true for those who are NT.

 

I also think people confuse sympathy and empathy.

 

Bid

 

You tick the boxes for me there as well Bid. I feel uneasy with nuetral emotion. I am learning that is human behaviour, but it is still frustrating for me and causes a huge amount of anxiety in trying to work out what they might be thinking or feeling. I deal with that by constantly checking with them if they are ok. I think it does annoy people when I do that, but I feel ever so uneasy if I'm not sure. I am always over anaylising human behaviour, I tend to over analyse mine as much if not more. I tend to see people in groups emotion wise, is that the same as systemising? The other problem I have is dealing with different reactions from different people in the same situation. For ex, my Dad used to go mad when a door was slammed, so if I go somewhere and a door is slammed I cringe, expecting other people to go mad as well. There seems to be responses from me emotion wise that are conditioned and I just can't change it, but I do try my hardest to improve it though. I'm pretty sure that would be the same for NT as well though do you think?

[bid]

You tick the boxes for me there as well Bid. I feel uneasy with nuetral emotion. I am learning that is human behaviour, but it is still frustrating for me and causes a huge amount of anxiety in trying to work out what they might be thinking or feeling. I deal with that by constantly checking with them if they are ok. I think it does annoy people when I do that, but I feel ever so uneasy if I'm not sure. I am always over anaylising human behaviour, I tend to over analyse mine as much if not more. I tend to see people in groups emotion wise, is that the same as systemising? The other problem I have is dealing with different reactions from different people in the same situation. For ex, my Dad used to go mad when a door was slammed, so if I go somewhere and a door is slammed I cringe, expecting other people to go mad as well. There seems to be responses from me emotion wise that are conditioned and I just can't change it, but I do try my hardest to improve it though. I'm pretty sure that would be the same for NT as well though do you think?

 

Ticking everything right back at ya!

 

I have what must be an annoying habit of constantly asking my DH if he's cross with me when he appears neutral, because I can't work out what emotion he's feeling. I guess that says someting a bit sad about me that I don't ask if he's happy

 

My DH and a couple of other good friends have the patience of Job as I tend to ask them in minute detail and over and over why people have behaved in particular ways. I think this analysing is part expanding my systematising data base, and part frustration when people, being human, don't react according to my data base (I do get pretty panicked when I over-analyse/systematise things as the permutations are endless )! I also have a brilliant mate whose response is always 'Oh, just ###### 'em!'...I think I need to strive for a balance between the two!

 

One thing I'm trying hard to move away from is the assumption I've carried all my life that if something goes wrong with social interaction, it must be my fault. I'm just starting to listen to the people in my life who are telling me that actually, sometimes it is the other person!

 

I think this whole discussion also highlights how vulnerable people on the spectrum can be within the context of social interaction as I feel we have to rely/trust very much on other people being genuine.

 

Bid

Edited July 20, 2009 by bid

[darky]

You are so right there Bid again! You really put it into better words than me, or perhaps I can just relate exactly to what you are saying. So nice to have someone who gets what I mean and I relate to everything you are saying. The systemising and the analysing is exausting don't you think?? My mind just does not stop thinking! Having said that, I do have a small collection of people who nick name me Oracle because I know a whole lot of useless information. I say useless, only because I have no qualifications, but have an amazing memory for obscure facts and inforamation I come across! There are benefits sometimes.