Newbie: F, 24, NT, in relationship with M, 23, AS

[Hairspray Queen]

Hello all,

 

I joined this group because I wanted to speak to others in my position and maybe make friends! I'll give a brief introduction. I'm 24-yr-old female, currently living in the South of England (although my family are from the Midlands). I have been in a relationship with a man with clinically diagnosed Aspergers Syndrome for four years. We met at uni and just clicked. He was diagnosed with AS a few months after we got together, so I've pretty much always known, however, over the past year or so, difficulties have come to light.

 

I was first attracted to him because he was so attentive, caring, honest and faithful, not to mention gorgeous! I absolutely adore him, but after the initial euphoria I started to have doubts, which mounted up. After nearly splitting with him last year, I decided to confront the doubts head on, be open and honest with him and have a damn good go at making things work. I realised that, although for the most part we get along fine, I do find that the relationship can be hard work, and it's taken its toll on me. Like most men with AS, he has difficulty managing his emotions, communication and social difficulties and some times struggles with empathy. At times I feel happy with him, but at others I get some quite negative and uncomfortable emotions, such as guilt and resentment.

 

I've read up a lot about these sorts of relationships and joined other online support groups. I've heard a lot of negative stuff, so am really looking for some positive support! I'm looking to speak to young people in similar positions to me, for positive emotional support and to share and swap coping strategies.

 

Thanks for reading this.

 

X

[baddad]

Hi hairspray queen...

Are you sure it's not just that the honeymoon period is over and you're seeing things without rose coloured glasses? You've said 'like most men with AS', but the list of 'faults' you've offered are exactly the same faults most women list in their boyfriends/partners whether AS or not. Has he stopped being caring, attentive, honest faithful and - not to mention - gorgeous, and if so is that to a greater degree than most people (men) would do after the initial six-twelve month 'euphoric' period that epitomises the chemistry of most relationships?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that his AS couldn't have anything to do with how you are feeling, but from how you've presented it it does sound more like you're projecting 'blame' onto his autism when there could be many, many other factors that apply, and the roots of those problems could lie with either, neither or both of you...If his behaviour has changed dramatically in the period you've been together then you need to talk to him about why, and you also need to consider if the 'new' relationship is what you want. If he's been fairly consistent but your own feelings/expectations have changed then you need to be honest with yourself about that too, and if he's not 'mr right' then his diagnosis is purely academic.

If you think about it, you're kind of saying 'it's not me - it's you', which makes a refreshing change from the usual but is a hell of a blow to someone's self esteem, and is particularly harsh if 'you' is offering pretty much what was always on offer and it's actually a shift in your own expectations that has led to the negative feelings you are experiencing...

I'm always cautious about using 'physical' disabilities as examples because they are always flawed, but:

Imagine you met a guy with a wooden leg four years ago, fell in love and started a relationship with him. If nothing else changed, but you now found yourself constantly 'challenged' by the implications of his wooden leg that wouldn't be the fault of his wooden leg. It wouldn't be yours either, or his, but the fact that no one is to blame doesn't solve the problem...

Sorry if I seem a bit blunt, but some of the language you use like 'I do find that the relationship can be hard work and it's taking it's toll on me', and 'having a damn good go at making it work' do sound quite patronising - almost as though you've done something heroic or done him a favour by taking on such a handful...

If I've misunderstood, please accept my apologies - I'm only going by what's written here. At the very least I hope the above offers some positive 'food for thought'.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Hi Hairspray Queen,

 

Welcome to the forum. If you pop over to "Beyond adolescence" you'll see plently of threads about relationships where one person has AS, so have a browse and you'll see what other experiences are.

 

One thing strikes me - you're only 24 - I'm (perhaps wrongly!) assuming you're healthy, solvent and have no kids, therefore a lot of freedom to do your own separate thing if you need to - and you're still finding the relationship hard going. Do you think it is strong enough to survive the inevitable challenges and problems that life will throw at you? Or will the resentment you feel now just grow even bigger if you feel that you're always the one having to make an effort? If you're looking to others for coping strategies and emotional support, and you're unable to talk to your partner about this, maybe it's time to cut loose, for both your sakes, while you (presumably) still can without too much fallout?

 

Sorry, that wasn't very positive was it (!). I'm not judging the quality of your relationship as I don't know you, it's just that you don't sound very certain about it yourself.

 

K x

[bid]

Hi Hairspray Queen

 

To be completely honest, no relationship, whether NT/NT, NT/AS or AS/AS or any other combination under the sun should be 'hard work'. Of course there are times when things can be tough, but as Kathryn very wisely says, if at your age with no kids, etc, you are finding things such a burden, then maybe it's just not the relationship for you, quite irrespective of your bf's AS? Overall, any relationship should be fun and make you feel good about yourself, otherwise what's the point?

 

Bid

 

 

 

[Hairspray Queen]

Hi BD and Kathryn,

 

Yes I do wonder to an extent if it is just that the honeymoon period has worn off. I know that I adore him, but sometimes I wish I just felt a bit more emotional towards him, e.g., (at risk of sounding cheesy), the "melting" feeling. *Shrugs*. I dunno, I'm not sure if you're *supposed* to feel that later on in a relationship or not. Maybe I focus too much on what I'm *supposed* to have and not so much on what I *do* have.

 

I am uncertain about the relationship and he knows this. I know I've put him through a lot of stress lately. I'm turning to others for emotional support in addition to speaking to him. I am open and honest with him, in fact I think he'll be joining this forum too soon. There may be things that I don't want to say in front of him, in which case I'd try to message people off the forum or ask them to message me off the forum. I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing, just maybe I want support working things out for myself.

 

He hasn't changed during the course of the relationship, he's still attentive, kind, caring, loyal, gorgeous etc. So yeah, maybe it is me. Some days I feel positive, happy and loving towards him, other times I wonder if we're really right for each other. At the moment I am uncertain and confused.

 

I'll check out the "Beyond Adolescence" section. Thanks.

 

X

[smiley1590]

have u read books on partners with AS?? Hope these web links help you get some information and advice:

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=126&a=2212

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=126&a=2222

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=126&a=14051

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=127&a=3619

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=545&a=5081

 

do you and him get much help and support from an ASD adult team?

 

good luck with everything!

take care

XKLX

[bid]

Just another thought...

 

As someone with AS myself, there is actually nothing worse than feeling as though another person finds you 'difficult' or has to 'work hard' to be in a friendship/relationship with you. Just makes you feel absolutely rubbish about yourself.

 

It's taken me a very long time to find friends who accept me unconditionally and I would do anything for them because they have never made me feel bad about who I am (which is not to say they patronise me either; to them I'm just 'Bid' who happens to have AS).

 

Hope you can sort things out

 

Bid

[Hairspray Queen]

Hi,

 

Smiley, 1590 - Yeah I have to say I've looked at all those links before. But thanks anyway, I appreciate you looking them up for me. I do want to read The Asperger Marriage book, but at the moment I have a few other AS relationship books to get through. I've done so much reading yet have so much to still do!

 

Bid - I'm truly sorry if I sounded out of line with what I said about the relationship being hard work. I have to admit, I disagree that no relationship should be hard work, in fact, quite the opposite, I think that the majority of relationships *are* hard work at times. They require a lot of compromise. I'm not saying they are all hard work and nothing else, no-one wants that. But I think that in loving someone, you accept that it can be hard work at times, but you're prepared to do that.

 

I don't mean it to sound like I've completely sacraficed myself in the relationship. I know I've focussed on the negative points a lot, because that's what I need support with. And they're what I'm dwelling on at the moment. Possibly too much - I analyse *everything*.

 

I've heard a lot of women say that men with AS are selfish, immature and that a relationship with them won't work. I disagree. Strongly. That's kind of why I joined this group really. I guess I wanted to speak to other women in a relationship with a man with AS who *don't* think that. Who *do* find the relationship hard work but are *happy*,or at least, getting there.

 

I think that having AS must be a struggle enough, without all the negative press there is. I attended one of Maxine Aston's workshops about Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder, in the hope it would help me understand and express my negative feelings, learn from them and feel stronger in my relationship. Unfortunately, it didn't. All of the other women in the workshop were older than me and advising me to "leave him while you still can". If I really can't see hope for the relationship, then I will leave, but as it stands, I really really want to make a go of it. I think I must love him, but I just sometimes wish there were more emotions there.

 

Anyway, sorry if I digressed a bit there. The point is, I'm sorry for sounding negative about AS relationships. Everyone can be hard work - I know I can - so I didn't mean to point the finger at people with AS.

 

Hope I've made myself a bit clearer.

 

X

 

[bid]

Bid - I'm truly sorry if I sounded out of line with what I said about the relationship being hard work. I have to admit, I disagree that no relationship should be hard work, in fact, quite the opposite, I think that the majority of relationships *are* hard work at times. They require a lot of compromise. I'm not saying they are all hard work and nothing else, no-one wants that. But I think that in loving someone, you accept that it can be hard work at times, but you're prepared to do that.

 

I've been married for 16 years

 

I was only going on your opening post, where you talked about feelings of resentment, guilt, that the relationship is taking it's toll on you. You shouldn't be feeling like this at the beginning of any relationship...that's not 'working' at a relationship or compromising.

 

I would agree that all relationships need to be 'worked at' and a good dollop of compromise, but they shouldn't be 'hard work', especially not at your age with no kids and so on.

 

Bid

Edited August 6, 2009 by bid

[dee23]

Hi Hairspray Queen, i started using this forum when, earlier this year, i began to learn about AS and realise that my partner almost certainly has aspergers. There is a thread in Beyond Adolescence about us, where i have been given such good advice and wonderful support. He suffers badly with anxiety and has been having a terrible time this year, feeling suicidal and having sometimes continual meltdowns. His gp has just agreed to refer him for an asperger assessment. He has finally read alex's medical records, back to childhood, (so he at least sat up and took notice of the suicidal behaviour....), and realised that there is a developmental issue, for want of a better way to put it, rather than purely a mental health problem, or "learned behaviour". This has been a particularly hurtful and unhelpful accusation levelled at him by professionals in the past. Although..... in the last year or two, i had begun to believe it myself, until i began to learn about AS. We are in our 13th year of knowing each other, and at the moment i am wondering a lot how different things might have been had we learnt about AS earlier, or even had he had a diagnosis in childhood. (His medical records show there was ample opportunity for any number of professionals to have realised there was something more than a naughty or traumatised boy). Our relationship was always turbulent, from both sides!, and there was always a large element of me "running" things, but i had a 1 year old when we met so i was in that role anyway. Also, i had to do a lot of coping and caring as a child, and experienced a lot of unpredicatable and what today would be called challenging behaviour around me, so a relationship that always appeared "difficult" to others was just my comfort zone! Whenever i have slid into feeling he has been damaging for me (and at times he has physically hurt me, fuelled by his blind panic), i have to remind myself of that co-dependency. Part of my attraction to him was that he made me feel needed, and he sorely needed and appreciated my ability to remain calm - and i cannot deny that was a boost to my ego. It takes two to make any relationship, and that, i now think, was my major contribution to our dysfunction. (Bet you are recognising the signs of a fellow compulsive analyser here ) Having said all that, a huge amount of our relationship was brilliant.... i am no martyr. I saw him as someone with a rough childhood who just needed to find the right help. Beyond that he was my totally unconventional, funny, original, completely honest best mate. In some ways he still is that, even though the Relationship is no longer there. Over time though, we both got busier, he started a business, and i retrained into a completely new career. I also had lots of housing problems for a couple of years that caused me huge stress, and things got more difficult between us. They got flatter somehow, we lost the humour a lot, a lot of my tolerance went - but then look at the stresses i just mentioned - they would try any relationship. He also went through a period of heavy drinking, which does not sit well with chronic anxiety. In the last couple of years me and daughter, and sometimes alex, have been sharing a house with my landlady, and have watched her, a very, very NT person, start a relationship with another very NT man, both of them lovely well adjusted products of good childhoods. That really made me look at things anew. I began to see alex as incapable of give and take, just needing to take, as emotionally cold, hugely selfish - all the things in fact that are usually used to describe AS men. I became very very angry, began to see the relationship as having taken a huge toll on me. And by this point our co-dependency had become very unhealthy. Everytime he had a work/business/anxiety problem he turned to me, yet he knew i was tired of handling it and that made him feel worse (as Bid so rightly pointed out). It was back in about February i stumbled across a reference to AS and began to read about it. To be honest i knew straight away that that was him, and so did he when he read about it. It completely took the wind out of my anger. A lot of his behaviour had a reason. It was no longer about him being selfish etc.... but just the way he is made. Learning about AS has helped him to stop feeling a failure, it has turned everything on its head. Now he, actually we, can look at how WELL he has coped in life, at his successes and his qualities. I am not saying everything is rosy, but... And he is not selfish, far from it. He just doesn't get the expectation in a lot of situations, can't read what the appropriate response is, needs reminding to respond at all etc etc!!! The thing is, you already have knowledge about AS that you can draw on to look at your boyfriends behaviour, i didn't have that for over 12 years, neither did he ever for that matter. It may be better to describe relationships as needing just work sometimes, rather than hard work, as i understand exactly where Bid is coming from. A good relationship should have a "flow", i think. There is a difference between work and thankless grind too, and only you know where that difference is for you. I also agree with everyone who has pointed out that you are young, and that maybe this is not the relationship for you. Maybe you do not recognise that, and the issue of his AS is simply clouding things for you. There will be lots of things about him, and your relationship, that will not be due to AS, and you need to work out what they are. Are they positives or negatives? He is much more than his diagnosis. Imagine if you did not know he had AS, how would you feel about him then? Knowing he does may give you some idea of coping mechanisms for certain situations, but it does not change who he is, or how you feel when you are together, if you see what i mean. Imagine if he had a couple of kids and an ex-wife in tow; that would make harder work in the relationship, and maybe cause you resentment, guilt etc. How would you feel about things then?

 

I am not the young person you wanted to talk to , i am 41, and it probably would help you to talk to people your own age, as i really don't know what i would have done in your situation at your age. I am fairly certain now though, that the thing that has caused the most damage in our relationship, outside of external stresses, has been alex's anxiety. It is quite possibly the thing that has caused him the most difficulty throughout life too. I know that anxiety can be very closely associated with AS, but alex suffers to a degree that makes it a separate mental health issue. This is what i meant by working out exactly, if you can, in what ways and where the AS has a direct impact on your relationship. Alex's anxiety has been like a third person in our relationship - always there, always interfering! I can't help but feel that if he "just" had AS, and not the chronic, crushing anxiety too (and do forgive any flippancy in the "just AS" remark, i am not downplaying it), that we might just still have our funny, unusual "us against the world" partnership.....

 

I do know what you mean about needing support with the negatives. It is easy sometimes, especially on a forum, to only acknowledge the negatives, so i don't for one moment think that is the whole picture of your feelings. This is a good forum, not drowning in negativity or self-pity. You also get the chance here to communicate with people who also have AS, which i have found invaluable. Do you know what though.... even if you were blissfully happy i would probably still be saying you are far too young to be "settling down"! (not at all patronising there, was i...... ) I do hope these, lengthy ramblings make some sense to you!!

Edited August 6, 2009 by dee23

[Hairspray Queen]

Hi Dee 23,

 

Firstly, if you have work to do then don't let this distract you. I'm really grateful for your post and it's calmed me down a lot. So only read further when you have time....

 

Since my earlier posts I went to have a swim and some lunch, so feeling a bit more settled into the day now.

 

About the work/hard work thing... the relationship *can* be *hard work* at *times*. Not often, though, and most of the time we get on and communicate well. It's not hard work *all* the time, by any means.

 

I can totally relate to what attracted you to your partner. I felt needed and wanted too and got an ego boost from that. I have also had a bit of a troubled upbringing. My parents are unhappily married and my Dad is an alcoholic, so I've had that burden to carry. I guess we both support the statistics that women who go out with men with AS have usually come from dysfunctional backgrounds. There is the theory that we are with them to "fix" them as a result of our upbringings. It makes sense to me, but I'd like to think that it's more than that. I make an effort not to *fix* my boyfriend, but to *help* him. He is always going to find some things difficult, and I know I have to accept that if I want to stay with him. I'm emotionally in quite deep with my boyfriend. I genuinely care about him and I guess one of the things I've been working on is boundaries. He's emotionally quite stable at the moment, he's a lot calmer than he used to be. When we first met he was drinking heavily and was quite depressed. As you said, you get an ego boost knowing that you can help someone. And in my case, I work in a caring profession (at a special needs school) and am interested in counselling/therapy as a career.

 

I've heard theories that it's quite unhealthy to be attracted to AS men because of our own dysfunctional family upbringings. We need to "heal ourselves" and get out of these "unhealthy" relationships with "emotionally unavailable" men. For some women, this may be true. But I wouldn't describe my boyfriend as "emotionally unavailable". He's still very caring and attentive and always tries his best to look after me. I think that what the resentment stems from is that I still feel lonely at times (common in AS/NT relationships apparently) and distant from him. He doesn't get anxious so much any more, but he did used to, and of course, it could come back. I think, at times, that he's needed me so much that I've felt that my needs haven't been met. It's difficult to explain, because he's not really a needy person. He doesn't really demand anything of me as such. So it's a bit of a grey area of uncertainty for me at the moment. I just used to feel that I couldn't tell him when I was unhappy because he would be unable to manage his own emotions. We did have one conversation in the beginning of our relationship where I was pointing out that I was unhappy with something (I can't even remember what) and he got extremely anxious. He started stammering and was unable to talk. We ended up wripping a tissue box open, finding a pen from somewhere and him writing down his side of the conversation. He's also had meltdowns where he's had temper tantrums and hit walls. These have been scary. I know he'd never hit me or intentionally hurt me in any way, but I just found it so frightening when you watch someone lose control...

 

He is so much calmer now, but I think those early experiences made me shy away from confronting him about issues. I was so scared to upset him. I just worried that he'd freak out and get suicidal, like I know he has been in the past. It's becoming clearer to me as I write this, actually. Sometimes it's not so much been that there have been issues that I've felt scared to talk about with him. It's been that I've often felt that I haven't had the *option* of speaking to him, if I wanted to, for fear of upsetting him. It's put pressure on me to keep things together and not demand too much of him. I have that pressure from my family too. Well, the pressure is in my head really, I guess. Every member of my nuclear family has suffered or is suffering from depression, to an extent. My mum once said to me, due to my family's depressive tendencies, "I'm glad you're happy... At least one of us is." I remember turning away, stifling tears, wanting to scream "HOW CAN I BE HAPPY WHEN NONE OF YOU ARE?". I've just felt that I've had to always be the stable one, the one who keeps things together. I realise now that I need to just look after myself and not my family. There's nothing I can do for them apart from be there when they need me. But even that's difficult when every phone conversation is a reminder of their unhappiness.

 

I know I digressed there. I just wanted you to understand where the resentment comes from. And no, it's not fair to direct it all at my boyfriend, and I try not to. I try not to feel any resentment towards him, but I guess you can't help your feelings, even if you know they're unjustified. I feel resentment towards my family too. I guess that I just come into more contact with my boyfriend, so maybe, although I know it's unfair, I unconsciously direct most of it at him.

 

In all fairness, my boyfriend has coped brilliantly with things recently. Last year we nearly broke up, because all of these bottled up doubts I was having came to a head and I suddenly decided that I didn't love him and we weren't meant to be together. I panicked, to be honest. I couldn't deal with the uncomfortable feelings. Every time he was nice to me I felt guilty for feeling this resentment, this distance, this unappreciation. We had some space for a couple of weeks and then got together to discuss things. He was remarkably calm, had written things down that he thought he could work on to make things better, we talked for hours and we got back together. Since that evening I've decided to be as open and honest with myself and him as possible, and he's worked with me. We're reading books together and reading books seperately (which we'll probably swap at some point) and I think we have got closer.

 

As you said about in your relationship, I think there's co-dependency in mine too. I used to think that he was too dependent on me, but I've also realised I'm quite dependent on him. As you say, in a sense, he's my comfort zone. I think that's why "people like us" (a sweeping generalisation, I know) go for "men like them" (another sweeping generalisaton). For me, I don't feel that either my family or my boyfriend are emotionally unavailable, they *will* try to take care of me as much as possible, but what I sometimes feel is that it's too much to ask. But I feel that with, "men like them", they're more accepting than the NT men I've dated or been close to. There's no pressure to fit into a social circle... I don't know, it's hard to explain, but in a way I feel that they're "safe" relationships. That they need us, so they will be loyal and faithful. I realise that that sounds, almost big-headed, and patronising towards AS men, but it's just the impression I get. Maybe I didn't word it as well as I should've. And I know I've made sweeping generalisations there, but I've been informed that that's the general trend. I'm not saying that every NT/AS relationship is like that.

 

I know that it's too soon to be settling down with a man. My boyfriend and I don't live together. We may move in next year but it really depends on how I'm feeling at the time. I know that he'd be happy to move in with me, but I think he understands my feelings and isn't putting pressure on me. Certainly marriage and kids are something I'm not even remotely ready to think about yet.

 

Wow, writing all that really helped. Thank you. Now it may be time for a cup of tea...

 

 

[baddad]

I realise that that sounds, almost big-headed, and patronising towards AS men, but it's just the impression I get. Maybe I didn't word it as well as I should've. And I know I've made sweeping generalisations there, but I've been informed that that's the general trend. I'm not saying that every NT/AS relationship is like that.

 

Yes, I'm sorry but it really, really does sound very patronising, and acknowledging the the fact that you've been informed that 'sweeping generalisations' are the general trend really doesn't justify doing the same thing

 

I've not heard the theories you mention about women who go out with AS men coming from dysfunctional backgrounds or about theories that it's quite unhealthy to be attracted to AS men, but i'll certainly endorse the suggestion that people's reasons for being with other people can be very complex psychologically. I think it's projection, though, when the other party for whatever reason can't fulfill those needs and is subsequently 'blamed' for the first persons disillusion/disappointment. From everything you've written you have many, many issues in your own background that seem far more pertinent to the feelings you are now experiencing than your boyfriend's AS. On the one hand you seem to acknowledge that, but ultimately you seem to come back to AS - either as an explanation for your own unhappiness/unease or as a justification for choosing him as a partner - as the 'root' of the problem when the roots were clearly there long before you met him. Effectively that's still blaming him for something which he hasn't done - you're just blaming him by a far more circuitous (and self protective?) route. At the risk of being blunt, you've said that your father was an alcoholic and that all of your family suffer depression. You also say that when you first met your boyfriend he was drinking heavily and depressed... I think there's a connection there that can't be overlooked, and it's certainly got nothing to do with his AS.

 

Coming back briefly to the theory that 'women from dysfunctional backgrounds are attracted to AS men' - you can look at that from several angles. It may well be that AS men attract women from dysfunctional backgrounds or women who are themselves dysfunctional, but the 'need' or 'flaw' in that equation does not lie with the AS man, and it's completely unfair to project the blame onto him [NB: i will add 'or her' here too, because i'm sure the 'theory' could be equally applied to some male NT/Female AS relationships]...

 

The simple fact is that relationships evolve and devolve over time: he once was what you wanted, now you're not so sure. That's fine, and you can't be 'blamed' for evolving. But it is also completely unfair to 'blame' him for not being what you wanted after you evolved, and it's completely unfair to blame it on his 'AS' which was part of who he was from the day you met him. I hope you can resolve your problems and make things work, but if you can't I think it could be really damaging for him to feel that the breakdown of your relationship centred on his AS, and from everything you've written completely unfair and unjustified too.

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

Hi again, Hairspray

 

I think you have been very open about yourself and your relationship, and I really hope you find a way forwards that makes you both happy.

 

Your posts have highlighted something that has made me feel uncomfortable for quite a time now; that is, the whole 'business' of Relationships and AS...and it has become a business, with books, workshops, talks, etc.

 

As far as I can make out, the majority of this 'expert' advice comes from people who have studied AS, rather than people with AS. There are undoubtedly people who are unhappily married to someone with AS...but equally, I think there are probably plenty of AS/NT couples who are perfectly happy, but who see no reason to talk to relationship experts. So I do wonder just how representative the AS Relationship business really is...

 

My honest thoughts are that if your relationship with your bf is making you feel all the negative things you have described, let him go so that you can both find people who are a better match. Nobody should feel that they are constantly being judged and found wanting within a relationship, especially if this is because of their AS.

 

Good luck.

 

Bid

[Tally]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

 

I would strongly recommend you encourage your boyfriend to join a different forum. It is going to be very difficult for you to speak openly about the things you are struggling with if you know he is reading it all. The same applies to him too, and it is unlikely to be helpful to either of you for that reason. Relationships and internet forums are not a good mix!

[Hairspray Queen]

Just quickly as i'm in a bit of a rush but just to make one thing straight.

 

I'm not saying I support the theories that AS/NT relationships are unhealthy. And the bit about women from dysfunctional backgrounds... I meant going out with "emotionally unavailable" men, not AS men. Basically, relationships where they might be unhappy. That's only a theory. (I'll reference here the book: Women Who Love Too Much, by Robin Norwood).

 

It was at Maxine Aston's Healing of Cassandra workshop that I heard that women are attracted to, or stay in relationships with "emotionally unavailable" men, such as some AS men, because they're unhappy. She talks about Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder http://www.maxineaston.co.uk/, a form of depression some women *may* get in relationships with men with AS, because of the difficulties with empathy and communication. In my relationships, these aren't *that* bad but they *can* be an issue. Sometimes I feel I recognise some of the symptoms of CADD within myself and other times I don't.

 

I am sick of hearing all that negative press too. That's why I joined this forum. To meet people who were a bit more positive! To be honest, all the negative press is getting me down, more so than the relationship. I have my own issues too. More my own issues, to be honest, than issues in the relationship, I think. Generally there are good days and bad days in the relationship. Generally I think we're happier now we're being open and honest with each other. We had a lovely evening last night. He took me out for a Thai meal and we had a great time, effortless conversation, was wonderful.

 

I *know* that there are happy AS/NT couples out there. I'd like to hear about them! That's why I'm here. Positive coping strategies and emotional support with the bad stuff. That's all. And yes I know all relationships can be hard work, regardless of AS, but there are some issues that are a little more pronounced in AS relationships.

 

I really don't want to let my boyfriend go. I love him. But there are just some aspects of the relationship that make me unhappy. I want to deal with these *before* the bigger committments, the marriage, the kids, in case I *do* end up like many of the depressed women I've spoken to and heard about. I have major, major fears about ending in a bad relationship, partly 'cuz of all the negative press and partly cuz of my family issues. At the moment it's not that bad at all, but I guess I'm aware that there are issues which are *threatening* to get worse. Yes I have a lot of issues myself, but I'm honest about that.

 

I really hope I've made myself clearer.

 

X

 

[dee23]

ooh hun you remind me of me I am glad i'm not young anymore i'm a much more sage old bird now, don't think half as much as i used to!!! (Oh and i edited out my comment about work - I went away and started feeling it sounded ###### rude! It's nobody elses fault it takes me so long to write my posts.....! )

 

I have to say, i am also very uncomfortable with the AS/NT relationship "business", (and it is nearly all centred around AS men and NT women). It sounds, Hairspray Queen, that you took a similar route to me in your learning about AS. I think we have both looked at the same relationship forums, and i think it is to your credit that you have kept looking and ended up here, you will find much more balanced opinions and advice. If someone is feeling unhappy, confused, unsure how to go forward in life and they find something that resonates with them, the natural thing is to dive right in and embrace it, whether it be a book, a forum, a theory. I went rapidly through a lot of those stages when i began to learn about AS, and part of that was looking at Maxine Astons work and theorys. I never went on a workshop, but we did think about paying for private assessment from her. That was when i was identifying very heavily with her theorys and placing a lot of store on the characteristics of our relationship being symptomatic of AS. Bluntly, i'm glad i got over myself, and quick. If, as does seem very likely, alex does have AS, it is him who has it and has to deal with it daily, not me. I may have to deal with him, but not with AS, if you see what i mean. I don't aim that comment at you personally HQ, it is just where i am at now with things. I am glad i stopped using certain forums, and didn't get drawn in to negativity. I think a lot of the relationship stuff that is around now represents a stage in understanding, which i hope will be passed through and moved on from, rather than becoming accepted psychological theory. Back in the sixties the psychiatrist RD Laing was developing his theories about schizophrenia, and spent a lot of time analysing family dynamics. From this he came up with the theory of the schizophrenogenic family, and more specifically - mother. Basically saying that mothering and family dynamics are responsible for schizophrenia. That became a wildly popular model of that illness for a while, causing, as is easy to imagine, some enormous harm to familys and mothers. I find Laing and his theories fascinating, and he did try to reach out to his patients in a way that had never been done before, but his theories have since been pretty discredited. It is accepted that there are much more subtle and complex reasons for mental ill health, and that genetics, environment and chemical factors all have their role. (bear with me - not calling AS a mental illness....) What has made me think of that is that i recently came across the term "aspergated", to describe how someones AS will dominate a relationship/family, and skew the whole dynamic towards AS traits. I unfortunately can't remember where i read that, and i have no idea how that is percieved in the medical world - but that whole attitude in the "relationship business" reminds me of Laing. And as i said, i hope its a phase, and that in future the idea that there is intrinsic dysfunction in an AS/NT relationship because of the AS will also be discredited.

 

If i were involved with a frenchman, but didn't realise, and kept speaking italian, we would have huge communication difficultys and probably both end up pretty lonely.... Is that a fair way of looking at this. Upon discovering he was french, however, and speaking the correct language, we would suddenly find a whole lot of common ground - or find we were actually really unsuited after all. If you look at language as a "coping mechanism", is that part of what we are talking about when we talk of dysfunctional relationships? Would it be more positive to think of people in AS/NT relationships as having cultural differences? I think it's fairly accepted that there is probably a lot of undiagnosed AS about, and if so, there will be a lot of people in relationships with partners with AS, or with it themselves, that do not know. Some of them will be unhappy and wanting to know why, and they may well "blame" the AS, and at the moment there is a big old self-help business out there to help them do that. I began to swing to that extreme, but i was caught up in suddenly having this rush of information and made it all about me for a while. As i said, glad i calmed down.

 

To be fair baddad, i don't think it sounds patronising as much as it sounds like the words of a 24 year old (there i go again.... ), and to be fair to HQ i was the one who brought up the issue of co-dependency and ego in a relationship, admitting i had been there done that, and i got off unscathed from saying it!

 

HQ i read a lot of self-help books in my 20s (and was also in a rubbish relationship for too much of that time!), had lots of counselling etc. I changed a lot in that time, as did what i thought i wanted from life. I think that is what your 20s is for - doing proper growing up! I think your biggest issues in the relationship come from your age, both of you. Can it survive the changes and the growing that will happen for both of you? Should it? Mine didn't, but my relationship with alex survived much more change, he was much more open to growing than my previous (resolutely NT!) partner. But... we were both older.

 

Daughter has just looked over my shoulder, said "boy thats long!", and is now hassling to be dropped off somewhere.... she has a social life.... I will post this and will probably come back later and edit the wilder ramblings on the grounds of embarressment

[bid]

Dee <'>

 

Thank you do much for what you have written about the AS Relationship 'business' and Maxine Aston, etc. I sometimes think maybe it's just 'me'...such a relief that at least one other (NT?? ) person sees things from the same angle as me!

 

Best of luck to both of you in your relationships.

 

Bid

 

 

[dee23]

(NT?? )

 

 

LOVE the use of question marks there!!!

[baddad]

To be fair baddad, i don't think it sounds patronising as much as it sounds like the words of a 24 year old (there i go again.... :lol

 

Honestly, I'm not trying to be difficut or anything, and i do agree with heaps of what you say about people cashing in on the whole 'AS relationships' thing, but those comments do still seem patronising to me, and it seems to me to be equally patronising to suggest that being 24 means HQ is too emotionally niave to understand that.

Dunno, maybe I'm a bit oversensitive being a blerk (or is that an oxymoron?), but fundamentally i don't believe that things women perceive as negative traits in men are any more directly related to a generic stereotype of AS than they are to the previous stereotype that 'all men are b*stards'. If the same sweeping negative judgements were made by men about women there would be hell to pay - and certainly there would not be a 'growth industry' in counselling programmes to accommodate those beliefs without women's rights campaigners baying for blood! Having said that this is not only a male AS/female NT phenomenon, but it is (as has already been pointed out predominantly so, and it is a very recent development that when male partners are perceived as being (i.e.) 'thoughless, uncaring, inconsiderate, emotionless brutes' they've been labelled 'typical AS' rather than 'typical male'. The truth is that men and women are different and that neither way is intrinsically 'right', and it is equally true that an AS male can be any one (or none) of the above without it having anything whatsoever to do with his diagnosis...

 

Anyhoo - on closing will just add that I had a quick look at the website HQ gave a link to as i was interested in reading what 'cassandra' was. Strangely, the page wouldn't open... I just heard strange duck noises through my PC's speakers

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[dee23]

Hi baddad, my remark about HQ being 24 was more to do with how she may express herself than any niavety in how she feels, and my "here i go again" remark was precisely because i too feel i could easily be patronising her by mentioning her age all the time! I actually agreed with you in finding the original comments you highlighted patronising, but, looking back to myself as a younger woman, i did feel it was the expression that was largely responsible for that, which is why i posted about it. I am not a man, though, so the comments obviously had less personal impact for me.

 

I spoke to my boss about AS. He used to be a senior social worker, and i wondered if he could help us. One of the things that he was careful to say to me early on was about how it could be all too easy to see "typical male" behaviour in AS, or even to see AS itself as typical male behaviour taken to extremes. You are not being oversensitive. On the subject of men and women, i see no equality in the fact that men are now routinely portrayed as stereotypes, ie, in advertising, particularly for cleaning products, men are usually shown as a bit thick and/or lazy. I hate this, and so does my brother. You are absolutely right to point out that such sweeping generalisations about women would just not be allowed, and this makes me angry. I think there are some very serious issues that our society faces with regard to the loss of traditional male roles and the loss of traditionally male industries. I actually don't think of my partner as a typical male, i never have, even though he has at times behaved in ways that would definately be percieved as thoughtless and thuggish, to say the least. I have also always found him to be a better communicator than a lot of people i know, and more emotionally honest - his communication and expression of that emotion has always just been different. Often very difficult, for him and those around him, but just different, and i also never felt he "didn't feel". I did however, get briefly swept up in the AS/NT relationship world, and not in a good way, and i can all too easily see how blaming AS is becoming, as you say, a way of accommodating certain beliefs about men and relationships. My partner has talked lately of how he has since childhood found it difficult to understand people, especially sarcasm and stuff, how he would take people literally, and that he has taught himself, from a young age, not to do that or to hide it. I had genuinely never noticed that in him, it was one of the AS traits that i thought was not in him at first and it did make me wonder if he didn't have AS after all, but now he mentions it when it happens or brings up instances from the past. This, among other things, has led me to ask him how he has "put up with" me all these years, as i can be a highly sarcastic person (it was the one trait my dad seemed to admire, and therefore to encourage in his children - except he called it dry humour! ). To your comment that neither men or women are intrinsically right, just different, i would add that the neuro typical way of being is also not intrinsically right, (and that is something i have felt for a long time, long before AS and this whole relationship issue entered my life), just as AS is not intrinsically wrong.

 

I read something, i think on the site called Wrong Planet. Someone had basically written a set of diagnostic criteria for being neuro typical. It is worded just like a lot of the clinical things you would find about AS, and gives advice to parents who are afraid their children may be NT etc. It is one of the funniest things i have ever read, but also quite chilling. I was reading about myself as a case study, basically, my behaviour and personality pinned down to some basic traits, not all of which i shared, and not all of which i did or felt all the time. I will try and find the link, and i always meant to print off a copy as i think all NTs should read it. I am sure it is a feeling those of you with AS are familiar with, and any other illness/disorder/syndrome for that matter. It also highlighted how horrible a lot of what passes for "normal" behaviour actually is: the casual deciet, judging others, obsession with appearances and conformity, even the sarcasm .

 

Back to HQ. I actually logged on this morning to apologise for harping on about her age, i've been thinking about it and i do feel i have patronised her. I am projecting too many of the mistakes i feel i made at her age onto her, like staying in a relationship that probably took too much hard work, and concentrating too much on the relationship (and the business we ran together, more to the point), rather than having my own separate life, which HQ has already said she does not do. It has also made me uncomfortable looking back like that because that was the relationship that produced my daughter, so if i got the chance to go back and do it all again i wouldn't change a thing anyway. I have given myself a mental slap on the wrist overnight HQ, and i am sorry, i definately do not think you are immature - you wouldn't be here for a start if you were.

[baddad]

Hi again Dee 23. well said on all that stuff. (and said much more clearly/tactfully than I would have managed, but that's probably 'cos i'm a blerk )

Don't think I read the 'diagnostic criteria for neurotypicality' so if you find it post it here somewhere...

Years ago I wrote a 'sketch' on a similar theme (it may be somewhere in the now defunct 'batcave' area of the forum, but if not tis gone forever!) : two mums at a school gate, the first - mother of an autistic child - 'sympathising' with the second for all the horrid NT traits she must have to deal with...

On the subjects of home diagnosis, projection and the 'interactional paradigm' I posted this recently:

 

Hypothesis

 

Hi all -

I'm not sure where to start, really, but I hope you guys can help me because I'm really at the end of my tether and don't know where else to turn for help. I really love my girlfriend, and hoped that we could have a future together, but I'm finding it really hard to deal with some of her 'ways' and can't see any way forward. I was really glad to find this site - a friend of mine has an autistic cousin and I noticed that some of her behaviours seemed to match my girlfriends, so I typed autism into a search engine to get here. It was like a revelation reading through the posts - like a light bulb being switched on.

When we first met a couple of years ago my girlfriend was really sociable. She loved going out pubbing and clubbing and really enjoyed coming to watch me play football on Sunday mornings in the local league. She got on really well with all of my footy mates (could drink half of them under the table!) and loved nothing more than joining us on a lads night out for a curry.

She was always a bit obsessive about stuff - she hardly ever had money when we went out because she spent it all on makeup and clothes - but my mates all said some girls are like that, so I didn't really think anything of it at first. Then one day I opened her shoe cupboard and realised just how obsessed she was - she must have had at least a dozen pairs of shoes in there and three or four pairs of boots too. Crazy or what?

Over time she became less interested in going out and getting drunk. She started wanting to stay in more often - not just on weekdays, but even Friday and Saturday nights - and started to moan about my friends from football, who she felt were childish and a 'bad influence'. She hardly ever wanted to go out, and only seemed to be comfortable socialising with a very small group of mutual friends at quieter venues or at dinner parties and stuff. I think she always had issues with crowds, but 'pretended' to be normal so people would like her. She even disliked the nightclub we had originally met in, saying it was too loud and 'smokey'. She said the music hurt her ears and the smoke made her eyes sting - looking through the posts here, I guess she's hypersensitive to that kind of thing(?). I've said she doesn't have to come and that I don't mind going clubbing on my own, but she wasn't happy with that either. I can't do right for doing wrong in her eyes.

We got our own flat last year, and since then her OCD has got out of control. I'm quite happy with the furniture and stuff my mum gave us, but she's obsessed with buying everything new and wants us to spend all of our money on stuff for the flat rather than the things we used to enjoy together. She nags me constantly about the state of the flat too - she's cleaning all of the time; hoovering sometimes two or three times a week - and goes mental if i leave the toilet seat up.

Even something like renting a DVD has become an issue. When we first met she used to enjoy all of the action films we rented, but now she's into really weird stuff like 'Mama Mia' and 'Dirty Dancing'. At first I thought she was winding me up, but she really does seem to enjoy that kind of stuff. She likes soap operas and reality TV too. A friend of mine thinks maybe she's compensating for the things she's missing - that she can only 'feel' emotions if they are modelled for her and spelled out in black and white. She never cries, for example, at real events like Chelsea losing to Arsenal but can cry her eyes out at some over-the-top period drama or a character dying on Emmerdale. She also laughs at human tragedy - she watches Jeremy Kyle whenever she can and roars at the misfortunes of others.

I tried talking to her mum about this stuff, to see if she could help or offer advice, but she seems to think that it's all perfectly normal. I know that there's a hereditary link to autism, so suspect thats the root of all the problems. I know her dad left her mother when she was a kid, so presumably he couldn't cope with the weird stuff either.

As well as the obsessive stuff at home she's getting into difficulties at work too. She gets intimidated by some of the blokes when they try to have a laugh with her and takes everything to heart. Over the past couple of months she's been really depressed, and while I know that's part of autism too I really don't think I can help her with it. She feels that her manager has been sexually harrassing her, but from what she's told me it just sounds like he's having a bit of a joke and she's got the wrong end of the stick. I've tried to explain this, but I just meet with a wall of resistance - she won't listen to logic. She's now saying she wants to leave the job, but there's no way we can afford to keep the flat if she does.

About six months ago things started getting really difficult. She suddenly announced that she feels our relationship is 'stagnating' and said that she wants to feel like we're going somewhere. I've tried to reassure her, but nothing I can say or do is enough. She did mention marriage once, but I'm only thirty seven and I'm just not ready for that kind of commitment. She's even younger - thirty two - so it's not like we haven't got time on our side. She also mentioned kids, but I'm not sure I ever want those. I'm even more uncomfortable about that now, because if she is autistic doesn't that mean our kids would be likely to get it too?

Anyway, thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any advice you can give. As I said at the begining, I really love my girlfriend and want to support her in any way I can, but I also need to know that she can change with the right kind of support. Do you think she can meet me half way, or am I flogging a dead horse?

 

Thanks

 

Hypothetical

 

As far as advertising goes - stereotypical blerks a bit thick and lazy... Pity I've not got an equity card I could be making a fortune!

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

Just to expand the discussion a wee bit...

 

I wonder why one rarely sees an NT bloke writing negatively about his AS wife/partner?

 

Now, this could be because blerks don't usually go in for all this soul-baring stuff...

 

But then I started to think around the subject: could it be that certain AS behaviour that an NT woman might find 'difficult' in a man, can actually be seen as a positive by an NT man in a woman? For example, one positive my DH always cites about being married to an AS woman is that I don't want to talk about 'feelings' all the time

 

Again, maybe the anxiety often associated with AS can make an NT man feel protective, but leaves an NT woman feeling frustrated and not protected by her man?

 

Further more, I wonder if the disintegration of traditional gender roles has further highlighted some AS behaviour as 'negative'?

 

Apologies for these somewhat clumsy models, but I wonder if there is anything in this?

 

[You have 45 mins to write your answer. Please use both sides of the paper, putting your candidate number clearly on each sheet ]

 

Bid

Edited August 8, 2009 by bid

[Mumble]

Again, maybe the anxiety often associated with AS can make an NT man feel protective, but leaves an NT woman feeling frustrated and not protected by her man?

 

Further more, I wonder if the disintegration of traditional gender roles has further highlighted some AS behaviour as 'negative'?

 

Apologies for these somewhat clumsy models, but I wonder if there is anything in this?

 

[You have 45 mins to write your answer. Please use both sides of the paper, putting your candidate number clearly on each sheet ]

I don't understand the questions Miss. I would classify these as musings as none of them ask a direct question but address things you are wondering (in which case you should be answering them ). Can I have them re-written in direct literal language please?

 

Also, can I have them printed on blue paper and have a room of my own to complete them in?

 

And can I have some extra time please?

 

Oh, and I'm really sorry Miss, but I forgot my candidate number

 

:lol:

 

 

[bid]

I don't understand the questions Miss. I would classify these as musings as none of them ask a direct question but address things you are wondering (in which case you should be answering them ). Can I have them re-written in direct literal language please?

 

Also, can I have them printed on blue paper and have a room of my own to complete them in?

 

And can I have some extra time please?

 

Oh, and I'm really sorry Miss, but I forgot my candidate number

 

:lol:

 

No, you get to sit at the back with the raffia!!

 

Bid

[Mumble]

No, you get to sit at the back with the raffia!!

I'd prefer the matchsticks (or was it toothpicks? )

 

[dee23]

 

I think i need to see my doctor though, going by those criteria i am actually not a woman after all! Maybe i've really been a blerk all this time Thats why i never get invited on girlie nights out.....

 

It's all falling in to place

 

I do think you are onto something Bid, but i can't possibly answer in 45 minutes..... Takes me that long to write an average post. Discrimination against the Compulsive Over-Analyser that is

[baddad]

 

I think i need to see my doctor though, going by those criteria i am actually not a woman after all! Maybe i've really been a blerk all this time

 

There's an easy way of telling... i'm surprised no one's told you about it

 

I'm fairly convinced I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body, so perhaps you are the female equivalent of that?

 

(and for anyone who Lol'd at 'man's body' - shame on you )

 

[Hairspray Queen]

Hi Dee 23,

 

Thank you for your reply to my message.

 

I have to admit that I was a bit patronised by the comments about my age (I’ve had a lot of those from people from other forums, plus the Cassandra workshop), but you redeemed yourself by saying I’m not immature!

 

I realised I really could’ve worded myself better in my message about “general trends”, in fact I kinda cringed when I reread it a moment ago. Basically, I’m finding everything a bit confusing at the moment. I’m trying to work out what the issues are in the relationship and differentiating them from my own issues. I have been for counselling and it did help. In some ways I wish I could go for more counselling, but I can’t afford long-term counselling and to be honest I am finding that I am slowly working things out for myself.

 

Some times I do feel that I’ve had all hope sucked out of me, by all the negativity I’ve heard. But then other times I feel positive, energised and defiant toward all those who tell me that my relationship will just make me unhappy. It has *never* made me unhappy; but I *have* felt that there is something missing. Yes I did join a few online forums, and they all emphasised this choice that I have to make, can I put up with this relationship for the rest of my life, etc, etc. I don’t feel it’s a case of “putting up” with the relationship, just a case of whether it’s what I really want, regardless of AS. I went to the Cassandra workshop feeling hopeful and positive. Those hopes were completely sucked out of me. About four of the women told me I need to “get out of there, while you still can,”, “This is the best it will ever be, it’ll only get worse”, basically that even if I was completely happy now then it would all go horribly wrong after marriage… As if my bf was going to have a personality transplant. At the time I really didn’t know what to think any more. I had just committed to giving things another go with my bf, we were being open and honest and we were starting to work through things and get closer. I knew that a lot of what these women said was wrong, but at the same time could relate to some of what they were feeling and saw them as older and wiser than me. I guess at the time I was also feeling vulnerable, and being told by several “NT” women in AS relationships that it would all end in tears… I just can’t even begin to describe how utterly lost I was feeling. (I use the “” for the term “NT” because I dislike it, I mean what the Hell is typical?!).

 

During the 18 weeks I went for counselling, two things my counsellor said, that have stuck in my mind, were:-

 

“It sounds as though you love (insert my bf’s name here) to bits, but you also love yourself, and that’s a good thing.”

 

“It sounds as though you have three (insert bf’s name again)s in your mind. The one who drinks and will potentially end up like your dad. The one who has AS and will potentially end up like some of the husbands of those women you’ve talked to. And the one who will lie in the park with you, in the sun, and who you can plan holidays with. That’s the one you need to nurture, because that’s who he is.”

 

Dee23, would I be able to message you offline at some point?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

X

[dee23]

<'> <'> <'>

 

That was a lovely post Hairspray Queen! And i'm so glad i redeemed myself, i genuinely had started to worry .

 

I remembered back to how i felt when i was reading and posting a lot about relationship stuff, and it does become all consuming scarily quickly. I vividly remember the phrase "get out now, while you still can" being used on the forum a lot, particularly to new members. It is such a point of vulnerability too, to join a forum and talk about this stuff for the first time, especially when you actually can identify with some of what people are saying.

 

Hang on to feeling defiant too, that is a darn good way to feel! You keep saying you and your bf are being "open and honest" - you really can't do better than that hun. Thats one thing alex and i have mostly always managed to do, it's something i have always appreciated about him, right from the beginning. I'm fairly certain that in 13 years he hasn't lied to me, i don't actually think he knows how, he doesn't even tell "little white lies". That does mean he is prone to saying anything that goes through his head, which means i have often heard things that tend to be hidden in most relationships, but i have come to prize his openess. He is also not remotely possessive, not jealous or insecure of male friends, which i also hugely appreciate (and is an example i have learnt to follow....). I have had some terrible times with him, as he has had far worse times with himself, if you see what i mean, but i also know this relationship would be a very hard act to follow for anyone else in my life. I have been quite profoundly changed by being with him, but in my opinion it is very much for the better. I'm no saint here.... we had a lovely day together yesterday, then today was a little rough - some anxiety over stuff that would go unnoticed in most households, and i do struggle with that now. I mean, i don't go aggravating the situation obviously, that would just be cruel and stupid. But nor do i waft around spreading calm and soothing his fevered brow, not after this many years of it anyway! That is our particular vicious circle at the moment. He is on the waiting list for his gp counsellor, he saw her about 5 years ago, and she is the one professional in his life that he has been able to trust, and therefore get some benefit from. So we both have quite high hopes about that, for our different reasons.

 

Message me anytime hun, g'night <'>

 

Dee X