Detentions

[av16]

Feeling a bit cheesed off - son (AS) now in yr 8 after a very tricky year last year. Things are slowly starting to go wrong again. He is now out of assembly every day (he lasted til the end of November last year), he's out of Spanish - he can't handle listening for any length of time which is of course what you need to do when listening a new language and also has to miss a maths lesson when his class are taken by a teacher he doesn't seem to get on with. I have also worked out that detentions are running at an average of 2 a week. They range from being late to class - probably his fault, to talking in class and once for swearing which I know he shouldn't do but he just can't seem to help himself. He has written in his planner that he has a detention tomorrow and he doesn't know why. What is the point?

I have told them that he just doesn't respond to this sort of punishment; if he had to miss play time it might register a bit. What he does respond to is positive rewards even stickers, I'm not sure if they've all taken this on board yet. He has 25 hrs support so I still can't see how he gets into trouble in class when someone is with him. I dread my mobile ringing as I have had calls from several teachers, one complaining he hadn't turned up for detention when he was playing an away football match for his school (he was the captain!).

 

They were ready to exclude him again last week but the wrong message was passed to his head of year so he was just given a detention. They just seem to focus on punishment as a way to get him to change how he is. He also seems to be in with the 'wrong' type as he's so desperate to appear 'normal' and of course he follows what they do but doesn't know when to stop; he seems to be the one that is always caught.

 

Sorry moan over but I'm feeling quite worried.

[Daisydot]

Oh dear av16, I think you and I have very similar DS's.

 

I was at the school just this week having meetings with the SENCO about a really similar scenario. I have agreed with the school that if detentions are given the teachers should ensure they are for a really specific reason, and that the specific reason is explained clearly to my son, otherwise - yes - the detentions are a waste of time because he is not learning from them. We had a detenion given last week, for which my son got in a right state about and when I wrote a note in the contact diary, it turned out the teacher had given it for doing badly in a test, and not the reason my son thought, which was that he had forgotten a piece of homework. My son doesnt have a 1-1 at all, but if yours has 25 hours pw 1-1 and is still getting detentions, then I think you need an urgent meeting with the SENCO to discuss the whole issue because clearly the support he is getting isnt addressing his behaviour needs.

 

 

 

 

[julie1]

We have the same problem. my dd2 is always in trouble, she just seems to switch off and not listen to anyone. Things usually end in detension for her only problem is she does not no what she has done wrong. things are never explained well enough for her. The teachers said to me that when you talk to her she only seems to get part of the conversation, Thats part of the reason why she has had a MRI today. But if they know she only gets part of the conversation isnt it there job to make sure she nos when and why she is in trouble. The school has said there is not enough time to manage this problem and removing her from the class seems to be the answer. She is happy out the class but is so confussed.

[Daisydot]

The teachers said to me that when you talk to her she only seems to get part of the conversation, Thats part of the reason why she has had a MRI today. But if they know she only gets part of the conversation isnt it there job to make sure she nos when and why she is in trouble. The school has said there is not enough time to manage this problem and removing her from the class seems to be the answer. She is happy out the class but is so confussed.

 

 

If the teachers say she is not "getting" part of the conversation then maybe she has receptive language problems - my other DS has that DX and seriously doesnt get most conversations. Also, if she is happy out of the class, then maybe she is misbehaving in order to get out of the class where she feels safer.

I work with a really fantastic teacher who teaches children with severe behaviour problems - and is very successful at it. She actually said that she rarely gives detentions but, if she ever did she would use the detention time to explain specifically which behaviour she was giving the detention for PLUS ask if there was anything she could do to help the child.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2009 by Daisydot

[Karen A]

We have the same problem. my dd2 is always in trouble, she just seems to switch off and not listen to anyone. Things usually end in detension for her only problem is she does not no what she has done wrong. things are never explained well enough for her. The teachers said to me that when you talk to her she only seems to get part of the conversation, Thats part of the reason why she has had a MRI today. But if they know she only gets part of the conversation isnt it there job to make sure she nos when and why she is in trouble. The school has said there is not enough time to manage this problem and removing her from the class seems to be the answer. She is happy out the class but is so confussed.

 

Hi.If she is happy out of class when being sent out is intended to be a sanction it certainly won't work.

We had the situation where Ben was sent out of class as a sanction.He then decided he would rather be outside than in the class with that specific teacher.He refused to return to class and was then given a C2 [written warning] for refusing to return to class....work that one out.

 

[purplehaze]

WOW-it seems that there seems to be a lot of schools particularly secondary that just don't seem to understand behaviour is displayed for a lot of different reasons and they need to be trying to understand the behaviour and why it is happening. Yes there should be consequences but there also needs to be support and understanding which doesn't seem to be happening in some schools.

 

My 15 yr old son (ASD) was in a mainstream secondary school with a 22hr funded statement-he was given detentions all the time and never understood what they were for. He never achieved any of his objectives on his statement, he was excluded loads of time, a lot of staff never seemed to understand hisd behaviour and thats all they seemed to see and I trhink thats the problem you can't see anxiety, stress, sensory issues etc you can only see how people display them.

 

I gave up in the end trying to change the way the school dealt with different situations and moved my son with to a SEN school with lots of support from outside professionals who also thought the school didn't have a clue. My son now has different role models and peer groups of children that are similar to him and he has had NO unwanted behaviour since being there.

 

 

Have you any outside professionals, autism team, parent partnership, EP etc that can offer the school advice and new ways to deal with difficult or situations they don't understand.

 

In the end I asked teachers to inform me of any detentions and reasons so I could explain it to my son and on a few occasions I actually told them if he hadn't had any support in the lesson he would not be punished with a detention. They and you need to look into what, why, when, where etc of the causes. Good luckxxx

[Karen A]

Hi av16.

I think there is a strange double standard sometimes.

Detention can be given on the day.Action is taken on the day with little debate.School do not feel any need to justify their actions.

However when a situation requires a Formal complaint on the part of parents school feel it is fine to take time to consider all of the issues before coming to any premature decision.

Not very helpful I know but pretty cheesed off myself on several fronts.

 

Edited October 21, 2009 by Karen A

[Daisydot]

This is an issue which seems to affect many ASD pupils who are in mainstream schools.

 

Does anyone know if there are any guidelines or similar which advise teachers on positive behaviour strategies for pupils with ASD in mainstream. Perhaps I will have a rummage on the NAS website. If I find any I will post a link.

My first words to DS teacher was - DS needs consistent boundaries - to which said teacher said - oh thats interesting, because I do vary the boundaries from lesson to lesson.

[Sally44]

If your son is 8 he is in junior school, and I presume that is mainstream??

My son is also 8 with a diagnosis of an ASD. We managed to get him Statemented and moved to a mixed mainstream and enhanced resource school that has a specialism in ASDs. So he has an SEN place there. We had to go to tribunal to get it. We also secured alot of professional input, especially from a SALT who now goes into school every week to carry out a programme that is practised daily in school in both the classroom and playground.

If your son has problems with processing language in real time in whole class environments then he would benefit from being taught in smaller groups with a dedicated TA to oversee him. But you need evidence of that. Has your child been assessed by a SALT that has experience of ASDs and speech disorders and auditory processing problems etc. If not then have a read around the above mentioned problems. Also look up Semantic Pragmatic Speech Disorder and Auditory Processing Disorder and Executive Function Disorder (a good for EFD website is www.schoolbehavior.com). Also what specific speech or speech retrieval problems does he have. Can he easily find the words to convey information or does he need alot of time and frequently give up. Is his expressive speech at the same level as his receptive speech. My sons are very different. Does or did your son every use echolalia or delayed echolalia? All these things will have an affect on how your child can assess learning in the classroom. A good SALT should assess all this skills - as well as social interaction/communication and social use of language skills.

If your child cannot sit through a lesson listening to verbal information then they are not meeting his needs. But it sounds like those needs have not been identified yet.

So find out about the above and list how you think your son is affected and put that in writing to the school and ask them to contact the SALT for them to come and assess your child. Then write a letter to the SALT department with a copy of your letter to school and ask for a SALT that is experienced in ASDs and Speech Disorders. Then wait and see what happens.

On the Education part of this forum at the top of the page you can get a copy of the SEN Code of Practice. There is also a 'Guidance for Speech Therapists' document on the education forum if you search for it you should find it. That makes interesting reading.

Many times our childrens' understanding of language is not understood or catered for in school. It maybe that this mainstream school may become more experienced. However, your son is now 8 and in 2 years you will be looking for a secondary school that will be suitable. If he is struggling at age 8 it will be much harder at 11+ when so much more is expected of them. And his lack of social skills will be much more obvious and other children are less forgiving.

So much can be done, but you do need to start putting things in writing and documenting everything. If you do end up going for a Statement and end up at tribunal you will need all this written evidence. Anything verbal cannot be proved.

Also typically mainstream schools tend to 'run with the system they use for all the other kids'. But a child has to learn and understand what they have done wrong to even grasp the concept of punishment. If he has such a problem with processing language that is like putting you in a Japanese classroom and expecting you to be quiet and pay attention all day long. How long do you think you would manage that before you started daydreaming or figiting because you did not understand what was going on. Would you learn anything, would you be able to ask for assistance, would you become anxious at the fact that everyone knew what to do and you didn't?

[Portia]

AAAARRGGHHH!!! If you have a statement for all this support then where is it?? I only know primary schools so can't speak for this but surely there is ONE TA there constantly;I know they go on about independence but that's obviously not working and support is needed bigtime. I would call a meeting with senco,head of year and TA.If you had a constant effective TA who had the freedom and backup to support properly,NO wholeschool punishments should be needed...he would have his own separate reward/sanction system. Sounds like you need to get a little bossy with them!! GOOD LUCK.xx

[av16]

Hi Sally44, he is in yr 8 so at secondary school. He was diagnosed AS when he was 9 and surprisingly has never had a SLT assessment. I mentioned to his school last year that I know he has difficulties understanding and asked if he could be assessed. Like many others he appears normal and has a good vocabulary and academically is at least average if not better so I don't think it was seen as a priority. I kept reminding school and in Sept was given a referral form, had a letter this week telling me 3 month waiting list.

 

I will attempt to speak to someone at school after half term (INSET today & tomorrow - have been told they are having a session led by the local ASD school). I spoke to DS last night whilst I was driving him to my sister's ( she's having him to stay for first time on his own) and he really doesn't like teachers who shout. Some of them seem to think he'll understand more if they shout and some are still saying things that he finds difficult like ' I'm going to be in your pocket' which as he takes things so literally he is never going to get.

 

I may be going to see another school tomorrow, outside of London, just to see what else is on offer as I have spent so much time and effort trying to educate the teachers - of course he has a whole new set now and some are worse than others at dealing with him.

 

Thanks for reading.(and of course your support)

AV

[Karen A]

Hi Sally44, he is in yr 8 so at secondary school. He was diagnosed AS when he was 9 and surprisingly has never had a SLT assessment. I mentioned to his school last year that I know he has difficulties understanding and asked if he could be assessed. Like many others he appears normal and has a good vocabulary and academically is at least average if not better so I don't think it was seen as a priority. I kept reminding school and in Sept was given a referral form, had a letter this week telling me 3 month waiting list.

 

I will attempt to speak to someone at school after half term (INSET today & tomorrow - have been told they are having a session led by the local ASD school). I spoke to DS last night whilst I was driving him to my sister's ( she's having him to stay for first time on his own) and he really doesn't like teachers who shout. Some of them seem to think he'll understand more if they shout and some are still saying things that he finds difficult like ' I'm going to be in your pocket' which as he takes things so literally he is never going to get.

 

I may be going to see another school tomorrow, outside of London, just to see what else is on offer as I have spent so much time and effort trying to educate the teachers - of course he has a whole new set now and some are worse than others at dealing with him.

 

Thanks for reading.(and of course your support)

AV

 

Oh dear.

That does not sound good.

I have pmd you. <'> <'> <'>

 

[av16]

A few more weeks on - and a few more detentions, he's now in more trouble. I am going to ring the LA tomorrow for their advice but the problem I think is with the support he has (or doesn't have). A discussion with a teacher last week was enlightening - 'his support is for learning' well yes but if he is being constantly disruptive (their words) shouldn't the support be for his behaviour?

 

There have been a couple of things over the last few days which resulted in me getting an answerphone message today saying he is to have an internal exclusion nex t week. . He was sent out of class twice this afternoon after he'd been told about this new development and was then told his attitude wasn't good

 

One thing he told me was the TA wasn't with him yesterday, today and he thinks Tuesday. He was in trouble for doing a handstand and cartwheel in class- I asked him why - because he'd finished his work and was bored. I'm not excusing his behaviour but their response makes me mad.

Needless to say he doesn't want to go in tomorrow

 

I've had a really bad day at work - mess up with the diary met the valuable EPs time wasn't used as efficiently as I'd like so sorry for ranting!

 

[trekster]

Hello

 

Request that they see you and take along a copy of "asperger syndrome practical strategies for the classroom", underline all of his difficulties and he can underline what could help him in that situation. i did this with grans copy one year for college and it worked because we could clearly explain what the problem was.

 

He certainly needs support for his behaviour, i think also hes getting lost or distracted when moving from class to class. i had that problem myself and something like the support assistant meeting him at the end of the previous class to walk with him to the next can resolve the being late issue.

 

If they are going to spring punishments on him in class then how else is he expected to react? (rhet).

The cartwheeling in class due to being bored i can understand. i started doing homework in DT class as i had finished my work. i then shouted at the supply tutor for writing in my book without permission. i didn't get detention but i was undiagnosed throughout my school years.

 

You are entitled to be angry at the attitude of your sons school. They are messing up his education not you!

http://www.autism.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly....=143&a=9995 NAS advocacy for education service link.

 

Good luck and dont give up!

 

Alexis

[trekster]

Oh dear av16, I think you and I have very similar DS's.

 

I was at the school just this week having meetings with the SENCO about a really similar scenario. I have agreed with the school that if detentions are given the teachers should ensure they are for a really specific reason, and that the specific reason is explained clearly to my son, otherwise - yes - the detentions are a waste of time because he is not learning from them. We had a detenion given last week, for which my son got in a right state about and when I wrote a note in the contact diary, it turned out the teacher had given it for doing badly in a test, and not the reason my son thought, which was that he had forgotten a piece of homework. My son doesnt have a 1-1 at all, but if yours has 25 hours pw 1-1 and is still getting detentions, then I think you need an urgent meeting with the SENCO to discuss the whole issue because clearly the support he is getting isnt addressing his behaviour needs.

 

Hang on doing badly in a test? Sounds harsh for a detention, we never got detentions based on our performance.

[trekster]

If the teachers say she is not "getting" part of the conversation then maybe she has receptive language problems - my other DS has that DX and seriously doesnt get most conversations. Also, if she is happy out of the class, then maybe she is misbehaving in order to get out of the class where she feels safer.

I work with a really fantastic teacher who teaches children with severe behaviour problems - and is very successful at it. She actually said that she rarely gives detentions but, if she ever did she would use the detention time to explain specifically which behaviour she was giving the detention for PLUS ask if there was anything she could do to help the child.

 

i agree and it sounds like she needs a full educational psychology assessment to find out what her needs are. im guessing she isn't statemented? (not accusing you of not attempting to statment her btw there is a parent down the road who took months to get her son into a special school).

[trekster]

Hi.If she is happy out of class when being sent out is intended to be a sanction it certainly won't work.

We had the situation where Ben was sent out of class as a sanction.He then decided he would rather be outside than in the class with that specific teacher.He refused to return to class and was then given a C2 [written warning] for refusing to return to class....work that one out.

 

Sounds like the classroom is so overloading for him that he prefers a more predictable environment.

 

Alexis

[trekster]

This is an issue which seems to affect many ASD pupils who are in mainstream schools.

 

Does anyone know if there are any guidelines or similar which advise teachers on positive behaviour strategies for pupils with ASD in mainstream. Perhaps I will have a rummage on the NAS website. If I find any I will post a link.

My first words to DS teacher was - DS needs consistent boundaries - to which said teacher said - oh thats interesting, because I do vary the boundaries from lesson to lesson.

 

Start with the "makes schools make sense" campaign part as that should mention what was lacking in schools for autistic kids.

[trekster]

Hi Sally44, he is in yr 8 so at secondary school. He was diagnosed AS when he was 9 and surprisingly has never had a SLT assessment. I mentioned to his school last year that I know he has difficulties understanding and asked if he could be assessed. Like many others he appears normal and has a good vocabulary and academically is at least average if not better so I don't think it was seen as a priority. I kept reminding school and in Sept was given a referral form, had a letter this week telling me 3 month waiting list.

 

I will attempt to speak to someone at school after half term (INSET today & tomorrow - have been told they are having a session led by the local ASD school). I spoke to DS last night whilst I was driving him to my sister's ( she's having him to stay for first time on his own) and he really doesn't like teachers who shout. Some of them seem to think he'll understand more if they shout and some are still saying things that he finds difficult like ' I'm going to be in your pocket' which as he takes things so literally he is never going to get.

 

I may be going to see another school tomorrow, outside of London, just to see what else is on offer as I have spent so much time and effort trying to educate the teachers - of course he has a whole new set now and some are worse than others at dealing with him.

 

Thanks for reading.(and of course your support)

AV

 

"what did you say, what did you mean?" is an excellent idioms book. Another is out today on amazon. i also got one in the "english for non native speakers" section of waterstones listing all sayings and idioms. Students in my class used to say to me if i didnt understand "look it up in your book". So i learnt that "all over the shop" meant "messy and disorganised".

 

Alexis

[av16]

Thanks Trekster for your comments and support. I'm waiting for the phone call at the moment but I have just arranged to visit another school next Friday - should have done it before but have been unwell (always on my days off!).

 

He's starting to get really fed-up again and feels like he's always in trouble.

AV