Neurodiversity

[Loop]

Are ASD's disorders and disfunctions that should be corrected? Or, as Neurodiversity ideology and increasing awareness says, are they simply human variation? Should we embrace neurodiversity, its equality, and establish neurodiverse cultural values, or should we see it merely as a disfunction and try to correct it? Or even look to eliminate it before birth?

 

Personally I'm a happy aspie and I have no interest in a 'cure' or corrective treatment. I think that many with ASD's feel tortured by the world more than they feel tortured by their own condition as a result of unacceptance, or even ignorance or intolerance. I understand, though, that that's a subjective opinion of my own. What do you think?

[KezT]

ASDs are a very wide spectrum. I would say there are sone autictics who are totally disfunctional and some who are totally productive members of society. Trying to have a "one size fits all" decision about what to "do" about ASDs is impossible and pointless.

[Loop]

ASDs are a very wide spectrum. I would say there are sone autictics who are totally disfunctional and some who are totally productive members of society. Trying to have a "one size fits all" decision about what to "do" about ASDs is impossible and pointless.

 

That's exactly the point. Recognising neurodiversity.

[Tally]

Anyone who's condition causes them no difficulties does not meet the diagnostic criteria for ASD. So it is inherent in the diagnosis that you will have difficulties if you have ASD.

 

The condition means that we think differently to the rest of the world. I don't think it's fair to blame the world for not understanding us. It's not NTs' fault that they don't understand us any more than we understand them. Nor is it their fault that people with ASD are in the minority and that the world does not revolve around our way of thinking.

 

I have met with groups of people with ASD. WHile many of those people were very tolerant of my difficulties, the difficulties did not go away. So it is not intolerance that causes my difficulties, since they do not go away around tolerant people. (And actually, some of them were very intolerant, so it's not just the NTs who are intolerant!)

 

I think anything that helps a person to communicate their needs more clearly is a good thing, so I support anyone who wants to help autistic people in that. I would like to cope better in this world and make some friends, so I would like to learn better skills for communicating with NTs.

[Loop]

The condition means that we think differently to the rest of the world. I don't think it's fair to blame the world for not understanding us. It's not NTs' fault that they don't understand us any more than we understand them. Nor is it their fault that people with ASD are in the minority and that the world does not revolve around our way of thinking.

 

You've taken something of a negative approach there by thinking in terms of 'blame'. Challenging preconceptions and misconceptions is not a negative thing, it's a positive step that enriches any society and should always be ongoing and evolutionary. The aim is not to point a finger but mainly to clarify a minority identity and even cultural values that will that give that minority better representation within their society.

 

Here are some articles that were sourced on wiki:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinre...html?sec=health

 

http://www.nationalreviewofmedicine.com/is...actice05_8.html

 

http://nymag.com/news/features/47225/

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199809u/neurodiversity

Edited December 13, 2009 by Loop

[Tally]

You were the one who talked about people with ASDs feeling tortured by the world's unacceptance, ignorance or intolerance. And now you think I have a negative approach because I don't think the world is that bad.

[Loop]

You were the one who talked about people with ASDs feeling tortured by the world's unacceptance, ignorance or intolerance. And now you think I have a negative approach because I don't think the world is that bad.

 

And many do feel that way, yet only you have mentioned 'blame'. That's not a concept I considered at all. Like I said, challenging preconceptions or misconceptions is not a negative thing, nor a matter of 'blame'. As you said yourself in your previous post, the world does not understand us. Given what I've said in a post on another thread about the tendency for democratic concensus to overlook poorly represented minorities and work purely in the interests of the majority, Is this something we should leave unchallenged?

 

Leaving my own experiences aside, I hear much about lack of support networks, lack of support in employment, and problems with commonly held misconceptions elsewhere. Personally I think that needs to be addressed with much more than a shrug, and that has nothing to do with 'blame'.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Loop

[baddad]

I think that many with ASD's feel tortured by the world more than they feel tortured by their own condition as a result of unacceptance, or even ignorance or intolerance. I understand, though, that that's a subjective opinion of my own. What do you think?

 

Yes, I think that is a very subjective opinion. I think that what Kes has said about never trying to find a 'one size fits all' solution is very true (though I'm less comfortable about 'productive members of society' because I think that's another sort of subjective judgement), and that 'happy aspies' should never assume to have any additional insight into the feelings of other people on the spectrum than (i.e.) NT's should.

I think the biggest problem with clarifying a minority identity in this case is that there is no common minority identity. With issues of race, sexuality, gender etc there are specific 'differences' that can be identified and spoken about regardless of other (subjective) factors, but the huge spectrum that exists in Autism/ASD/AS means all bets are off in terms of one 'group' (i.e. those with 'high functioning' - excuse the terminology - Aspergers) being a realistic or accurate voice for other people with an Umbrella diagnosis but a completely different set of needs and (excuse the terminology again) symptoms...

And I'd agree that challenging preconceptions or misconceptions is not a negative thing, but I'd qualify that by saying unless your starting point is another set of purely arbitrary and subjective preconceptions and misconceptions...

L&P

 

BD

[Loop]

I think the biggest problem with clarifying a minority identity in this case is that there is no common minority identity.

 

Can't you see the faulty logic in that statement as clearly as I can? It's faulty because you havn't proven the latter part of the statement. It's an arbitrary and subjective preconception.

 

With issues of race, sexuality, gender etc there are specific 'differences' that can be identified and spoken about regardless of other (subjective) factors, but the huge spectrum that exists in Autism/ASD/AS means all bets are off in terms of one 'group'

 

And you think there wasn't and always has been a vast spectrum of differences as far as race, sexuality, and gender are concerned? Could it not be that we recognise those differences better now simply because of increased awareness and acceptance of differeing cultural values? Are you stating that such inreased comprehension and awareness that has facilitated the acceptance of the 'rainbow' of multi-culturalism and gender/sexual preference cannot be applied to nerodiversity? Where's your argument that substantiates that? I don't see one. The growing awareness of multi-culturalism etc didn't start out from a 'purely objective set of arbitraty and subjective preconceptions' did it? The starting point was actually in challenging those things that were already present. Can you see the difference?

 

The mistake you're making is the assumption that I'm subjectively proposing a set of cultural values. I'm not. I'm advocating the objective discovery of the ones that I know are very definitely already there but aren't generally recognised.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Loop

[baddad]

Can't you see the faulty logic in that statement as clearly as I can? It's faulty because you havn't proven the latter part of the statement. It's an arbitrary and subjective preconception.

 

No - you'll have to help me . Can you prove/have you 'proven' there is evidence of a common minority identity? I've said why I don't think there can be, given the huge spectrum of 'symptoms' falling under a single umbrella term. If you have any convincing evidence that I'm wrong I'm happy to read it, but asking me for 'proof' is nothing more than gainsaying when you've offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your own theory, which you've freely admitted is 'subjective opinion'.

 

 

And you think there wasn't and always has been a vast spectrum of differences as far as race, sexuality, and gender are concerned? Could it not be that we recognise those differences better now simply because of increased awareness and acceptance of differeing cultural values? Are you stating that such inreased comprehension and awareness that has facilitated the acceptance of the 'rainbow' of multi-culturalism and gender/sexual preference cannot be applied to nerodiversity? Where's your argument that substantiates that? I don't see one. The growing awareness of multi-culturalism etc didn't start out from a 'purely objective set of arbitraty and subjective preconceptions' did it? The starting point was actually in challenging those things that were already present. Can you see the difference?

 

Of course I agree there is a huge spectrum of difference within any minority group - but there are also fundamental 'samenesses'. That's not the case with autism. Autism is an umbrella term in the same way that (i.e.) 'disability' is an umbrella term. While I think a disabled person is perfectly capable of talking about 'disability' with some degree of authority I do not think that (i.e.) a person born blind could talk with any authority about the effects of being deaf (or the experience of being deaf) or visa versa. Similarly, I do not believe that a happy, high functioning aspie has any more insight into autism as it effects someone who cannot speak, cannot sign, can communicate their needs only at a most basic level and who appears to live daily with levels of stress that most of us find impossible to imagine. I do not believe that anyone who managed to achieve adulthood relatively unscathed without any sort of formal support can really assume any sort of 'collective' identity with those who couldn't. That's not to say that HFA or AS is 'easier' or anything like that ( though I do believe that diagnosis today has become so wide that it's effectively becoming unrealistic as a 'model'), just that it is too different for sweeping generalisations.

So, in a nutshell, I'm not questioning your 'right' to propose or advocate anything - I'm just questioning the authority with which you assume to do so.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited December 14, 2009 by baddad

[justine1]

Anyone who's condition causes them no difficulties does not meet the diagnostic criteria for ASD. So it is inherent in the diagnosis that you will have difficulties if you have ASD.

 

The condition means that we think differently to the rest of the world. I don't think it's fair to blame the world for not understanding us. It's not NTs' fault that they don't understand us any more than we understand them. Nor is it their fault that people with ASD are in the minority and that the world does not revolve around our way of thinking.

 

I have met with groups of people with ASD. WHile many of those people were very tolerant of my difficulties, the difficulties did not go away. So it is not intolerance that causes my difficulties, since they do not go away around tolerant people. (And actually, some of them were very intolerant, so it's not just the NTs who are intolerant!)

 

I think anything that helps a person to communicate their needs more clearly is a good thing, so I support anyone who wants to help autistic people in that. I would like to cope better in this world and make some friends, so I would like to learn better skills for communicating with NTs.

 

I agree 100% with Tally!I remember watching a documentry about dwarfism("little people") a man on the programme was asked about how his daughter will be when she left home,how will she reach things in a supermarket etc. His reply was that this is a "big people" world and therefore as "little people" we cant expect everything to change for us we need to adjust to the outside world.I now use this statement with regards to my sons AS i.e.this is an NT world and he needs to make adjustments.HOWEVER,this does not mean people should disrespect him,undermine him or not support him as and when needed.It does mean that he should not expect special treatment for AS.He is six and when he does something wrong at school he says its because of my Aspergers and that is what I need to dis courage.As for abortion,I dont think its an easy question to deal with as every situation is different and there are different levels of ASD,one never knows how a child will turn out wether they have ASD or are NT,it also depends on how the parent is supported,I cant imagine how I would cope with any of my four boys if I was completely alone,even though I am single mum and do most of the hard work alone I do have emotional support from my family and my ex's family.

[Loop]

No - you'll have to help me . Can you prove/have you 'proven' there is evidence of a common minority identity? I've said why I don't think there can be, given the huge spectrum of 'symptoms' falling under a single umbrella term. If you have any convincing evidence that I'm wrong I'm happy to read it, but asking me for 'proof' is nothing more than gainsaying when you've offered no evidence whatsoever to back up your own theory, which you've freely admitted is 'subjective opinion'.

 

You've made the basic error of circular reasoning - that because such an identity isn't apparent means that it must not be present. It's also a basic logical error to suppose that absence of evidence is evidence of absence and that no further enquiry is necessary. My argument is to challenge precisely that faulty sort of thinking. As for your argument about a 'huge spectrum', we already exploded that particular myth - I repeat, the 'huge spectrum' of multiculturalism and gender/sexuality choice was, at one point, marginalised within our society and without identity, yet the challenging of preconceptions has led to subcultures that are now celebrated.

 

Of course I agree there is a huge spectrum of difference within any minority group - but there are also fundamental 'samenesses'.

 

That's subjective to the point of obscurity. I have no idea what you mean. Are you generalising? That's another logical fallacy when not substantiated.

 

Similarly, I do not believe that a happy, high functioning aspie has any more insight into autism as it effects someone who cannot speak, cannot sign, can communicate their needs only at a most basic level...I'm just questioning the authority with which you assume to do so.

 

Where does a 'high-functioning aspie' communicating such ideas come into this? Have I missed something about neurodiversity ideology? Or is this a basic ad hominem? I wasn't aware that I'd been solely responsible for the articles printed in publications such as the New York Times, some of which I've sourced above.

 

Ultimately we seem to be proving my point beautifully here - that people are willing to resort to previously held preconceptions and argue from entrenched positions against that which they know little about.

 

Read the articles.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Loop

[baddad]

You've made the basic error of circular reasoning - that because such an identity isn't apparent means that it must not be present. It's also a basic logical error to suppose that absence of evidence is evidence of absence and that no further enquiry is necessary. My argument is to challenge precisely that faulty sort of thinking. As for your argument about a 'huge spectrum', we already exploded that particular myth - I repeat, the 'huge spectrum' of multiculturalism and gender/sexuality choice was, at one point, marginalised within our society and without identity, yet the challenging of preconceptions has led to subcultures that are now celebrated.

 

 

 

That's subjective to the point of obscurity. I have no idea what you mean. Are you generalising? That's another logical fallacy when not substantiated.

 

 

 

Where does a 'high-functioning aspie' communicating such ideas come into this? Have I missed something about neurodiversity ideology? Or is this a basic ad hominem? I wasn't aware that I'd been solely responsible for the articles printed in publications such as the New York Times, some of which I've sourced above.

 

Ultimately we seem to be proving my point beautifully here - that people are willing to resort to previously held preconceptions and argue from entrenched positions against that which they know little about.

 

Read the articles.

 

Hi loop - I couldn't be bothered reading to the end of your post, let alone the articles!

Circular reasoning? Tut! I arsk ya!

 

L&P

 

BD

[Martin Howe]

These are matters that I have considered for some time and really want to thrash out and come to a comprehensive viewpoint; that will inevitably take time and the best I can do to answer the original question for now is "the jury is still out" and this.

FWIW

 

[kinky j]

Hi Loop,

 

I have often considered this myself, not just about ASD's but also anything that classes as a learning difficulty or disability such as dyslexia, dyspraxia, adhd etc.

However, I don't think it will ever be simply a case of all different neurotypes learning to accept and tolerate each other in the same way that other sociological groups have gained acceptance and equality because, as others have pointed out above, some neurological traits do cause significant difficulties in the lives of both those affected and their families.

 

Personally, I believe that the only way for there to be genuine equality for all different neurotypes is for society to accept that people can't be pigeon-holed. That this one-size-fits-all approach to things such as education, employment support, health care and social/support services doesn't really fit all and is so full of holes that many are falling through the gaps. Unfortunately, we live in capitalistic times where success is measured not by the most positive outcome for all, but by the most cost effective way to achieve a positive outcome for the majority. More so now we are in financial recession.

 

The most successful way to combat this would be to find a cost effective way of implementing an tailor-made system for every individual rather than just for those whose needs are most evident. I believe that every parent on this board who has experienced it will testify to the massive improvement that individualised education and support makes to their child's progress and quality of life, I know I can. My son's placement in a special school has already made a huge difference! If similar personalised systems were in place for all, throughout life, catered specifically to the individual rather than being allocated to those who have already spent a substantial amount of time under-achieving due to lack of support, there would be no gaps to fall through. This would not only benefit those with ASD's and other minority neurotypes but also those who under-achieve due to social or behavioural issues.

 

The most difficult part is finding a way of implementing such a system in a way that any costs incurred would be offset by the revenue generated by having a higher percentage of the overall population reaching their full potential and becoming productive members of society.

 

Sorry for the massive post

 

KJ

[Sally44]

I think there is a case for neurodiversity in the same way as any other group comes together. The idea behind any kind of grouping is to make that groups strengths and weakness more 'known' and recognised. With those on the spectrum that must be a good thing. Just think of all the 'disability' legislation and awareness there has been because disabled people formed groups and lobbyed parliament. And 'disability' covers a much wider spectrum that even the autistic spectrum in my opinion.

Although there are many differences and sameness within the ASD group, there are the core difficulties which fall under the criteria that has to be met to get a diagnosis.

 

Should ASD be seen as a disorder to be fixed? I think those that are on the spectrum need the opportunities and help from professionals to develop some skills that will be useful for them in everyday life. Yet I am frequently frustrated by the fact that the one size fits all tends to apply to input from professionals as well. I often feel that social niceities are being taught rather than functional skills that will help my son. Maybe we need HFAs to be the very professionals delivering the therapies to our children. But that starts to smack of almost apartheid. The increase in adults on the spectrum giving seminars and professionals with ASD talking about how it presents in themselves is very helpful. I find it interesting that adults with autism have talked about things like sensory difficulties for decades, and yet it isn't in the diagnostic criteria yet. So professionals have told us what 'autism is' and have not listened to the autistics themselves.

 

ASD is currently classed as a disorder. Many parents do go to extreme lengths in any attempt to 'cure' their children of the symptoms of ASD. Some children and adults are very severely affected and it is hard to even know what their experiences are. But having watched a video of Amanda Baggs it makes it even harder to 'judge' someone's ability on how they behave. I am sure there will be some kind of neurological 'test' for pregnant woman in the future. That will mean that abortions based on neurological factors will take place and which will certainly include autism.

 

We raise and breed a wide range of animals. Any farmer is always looking to improve his line of animals. Weakness in any shape or form is treated or weeded out. I often think about the differences between the animal and human world. For example the 'white middleclass male' is seen as the human category that tends to get the top jobs. In the animal world 'males' in general end up as meat and are not as prized as the female of any breed. Would I accept a cure for autism? Probably yes, depending on any risks involved because it would make it easier for my son to fit into the system. That sounds awful and makes me feel uncomfortable, but we all have to fit within the constraints of society.

 

Is autism 'useful to society'. There are many arguments that the strengths in autism have been behind some of the greatest inventions and discoveries. I am sure that my son's autism does not upset him as much as having to comply with demands made on him eg. go to school! I think a different approach (neurodiversity) to education would be amazing as so many parents post on this forum about problems with school. And a neurodiverse approach to work is needed otherwise why push our children through the educational system if there is nothing for them at the other end.

 

It is interesting that the first time I heard the word 'neurodiversity' was by an adviser for the Dyslexia Association - so maybe we can join forces with all the dyslexics as well.

[chris54]

I think a different approach (neurodiversity) to education would be amazing as so many parents post on this forum about problems with school. And a neurodiverse approach to work is needed otherwise why push our children through the educational system if there is nothing for them at the other end.

A neurodiverse approach to work, as I see it we have and are continuing to move away from that.

 

The idea that all job will be highly skilled highly trained leaves no room for those that cannot achieve these things.

I'm not saying that we should not strive to achieve as high a level of education (and development in other areas) as our young people can achieve only that if the highest levels are not achieved then they not labeled as failing. (I include all young people, I don't like this idea of dividing society up into "Communities". To me a community is to do with where you live and not, the colour of your skin, the religion, your sex orientation, or your neurological approach to life.)

 

I see adults (in my work) who spend their time "Playing", do nothing constructive, are very frustrated with life which often manifests itself as aggression , who given the right opportunities, the right setting could do some something constructive. We use to have such "employment" but it was seen as being "Exploitative" as it did not pay a proper wage. For this reason it was done away with. This has left nothing for these people to do with their lives. It wasn't perfect by any means but we need to make a place in society for people of all levels in work as well as play. Can you imagine living in a world were the high lights of your life are what staff are on next and whats for dinner.

 

I don't expect every one to agree with me, just a few thought of the top of my neuro-untypical head.

 

 

[Sally44]

I agree with what you say about work opportunities.

My sister works in a sheltered factory, yet she is the only one that has a neurological disability as opposed to a physical one. So even there the pressure has been to employ people who are deaf or with a limb amputated. Those with learning difficulties have gradually been gently pushed out the door. This is the only sheltered workplace in the whole of our city. If that factory closes she would remain unemployed until she received her pension.

And, as you say, alot of the work that could have been done by adults is now done by machines. But the positive side of work for those with these types of disabilities is obvious. And surely the cost of wages is offset by the cost of benefits and care within the home.

But the voice of one person is rarely heard. When those people group together and take on an agenda and lobby for it (as do lots of other groups and companies), you are putting your concerns infront of politicians and the media every day. And when many things do run on budgets, those that shout longest and loudest tend to get what they want. People group together all the time. Coming onto this forum is a kind of group. I go to a parent support group. We are all in groups whether we know it or not. A neurodiversity group could lobby about jobs and sheltered work places. That is something that is feasible and possible, by you need to have some 'weight' of people behind you and a face for the organisation. As she had such success with lobbying recently I would nominate that "Lumley" woman - can't for the life of me remember her first name!!