Uncooperative and manipulative

[KarenT]

Any tips on how to motivate an uncooperative and (potentially) manipulative pre-teen? I say 'potentially' because in reality I'm not half as thick as he'd like to think I am so he doesn't wind me round his finger as much as he'd like, but I suspect his efforts will continue.

 

J is 11 with AS, has in the past always responded well to reward and consequence strategies, but lately is fighting off any attempt to support him. He is desperate to be independent, acknowledges that he'll gain that independence faster if he lets someone help him achieve it but finds it hard in practice to accept that help. It's getting very frustrating, because all the things I'm trying to help him with I know he's capable of but I just can't get him to cooperate. There are aspects that are genuine problems eg distraction, focus, forgetfulness, fidgetiness and disorganisation etc, but we try to work around these things and use aids to help him. Medication has helped a lot to calm some of these things down.

 

I feel that part of the problem is hormonal changes, but that doesn't give him the excuse to take charge of situations me as he seems to think he can. He knows I am here to support and guide him in any way necessary but that I can't wave a magic wand and make his problems go away - he has to be the one who takes that guidance and does the work himself. Without working in partnership my efforts are pointless.

 

I have to add that he's not always like this. Some days we have a lovely time with J going out of his way to help himself and make positive choices, with pleasing results for all cocnerned. This is what I find so frustrating. We both agree that it's nicer this way but on the days/times when he's acting up I can't get him to realise the mess he's making 'in the moment' and rethink his choices. We get stuck in a rut till the next time he decides to behave well again.

 

Any thoughts, o wise ones?

 

Karen

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[JsMum]

Defo hormones, Im having similair issues, my son is 12, so I am kinda going throw the same, as with your son could it be his medication needs reviewing, is he actually taking them as well, sometimes they make us believe they are when there not.

 

Im going a couple of courses from NAS soon would anything like that help, what about NAS too, there maybe spersific programmes for Teens.

 

Is there anything worrying your lad, school issues, expectations, pressure, mood swings ect...

 

I always look at routines too, are they eating enough, sleeping regularly, have enough to challenge them at the same time time to chill out and relax so they get a ballance.

 

My son only takes control when he feels he hasnt got any, he manipulates too as to avoid a situation he is going to struggle in, its an aviodance techneque.

 

Maybe a sit down and chat toghether use a whiteboard of all your concerns and his concerns and see if there similair.

 

Otherwise its back to consequences and taking away thier privlidges.

 

JsMumxxx

 

[KarenT]

Hi Jsmum

 

I agree, most likely hormones. Haven't noticed any courses doing the rounds for teens and am on all the mailing lists, but will keep a look out.

 

Nothing seems to be worrying him - we talk regularly and he tells me if there is. He's home educated so nothing going on in school (or elsewhere) that I wouldn't know about.

 

He is due for a meds review in March so will talk about it then, though I doubt it's that if the problems aren't consistent iykwim - I'd expect he'd be uncooperative more (if not all) of the time if it were the drugs.

 

Routines are good, plus he's getting more used to handling changes and spontaneity. We have a good balance between work and leisure too, with lots of social stuff. Generally he's a happy chappy these days

 

I take what you say about your son manipulating when he feels he hasn't any. Not sure this applies here; we negotiate and agree most things in advance but lately J will go back on the agreement and try to change the existing plan. Avoidance seems to have become an intermittent bad habit, and he'll avoid just for the sake of it, to have control over a decision he perceives to have been made by me.

 

Desire for independence is at the root of it, tbh. He craves it and can see that he'll get it quicker if he cooperates with adults helping him to become independent, but he's determined he can do everything on on his own. But in reality he can't, and causes a lot of problems for himself by attempting to tackle situations that are beyond him before he's ready.

 

Reward and consequence is a daily feature of our lives! He's currently delighted that the Gadget Show is back on tv but has already lost Monday's programme due to behaviour earlier in the week, though I've given him the opportunity to earn it back. But he's still avoiding and manipulating and not cooperating with everyday requests. His need to be in control seems greater than his need for Gadget Show. At times like this I feel like I'm taking everything away from him but without any change, which leaves me feeling a bit helpless.

 

Thanks for your advice. Will see what else I can do but I think this might be one of those that I have to ride through and come out the other side.

 

Karen

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[Tally]

You might need the consequences to be more instant than a few days away, especially if he thinks he can earn it back later. A lot of people with ASD find it hard to think about the consequences of their actions, and if the consequences are a few days away it might not feel like a powerful disinsentive at the time.

 

Have you tried talking to him about his need for support at a relaxed time? It's difficult because it sounds like he does have a good understanding of it, but maybe it's something that needs to be reiterated over and over again until he is able to remember it even at the difficult times.

[KarenT]

Yes, all of the above!

 

Consequences vary, most are instant but often the 'instant' ones aren't the most powerful, iykwim. He's very tv motivated so having work to earn Gadget Show, Top Gear and others has been effective in the past, though sometimes it isn't (it all sounds so familiar, doesn't it ).

 

He is pretty in tune with his AS and understands his difficulties well (more so since coming out of school and being sufficiently unstressed to process it all).

 

I think you're right about going over and over it repeatedly, which is what we do. We have a regular Sunday night slot (and sometimes at other times too) to talk about 'stuff' and how we can work together to support him. It's at these times that I see how well he understands the theory of working together but it's hard for him to achieve 'in the moment'. At the same time, he's made massive progress in the last year or so, so perhaps I'm expecting more from him than he can cope with at the moment, although I don't want to let him have more control than is acceptable for both of us.

 

I think all the strategies we use are appropriate but sometimes (as we all know) it can take months if not years to see constent and concrete progress, and sometimes there can be several backward steps for no explicable reason. I guess I'll just have to keep banging away on this one till the penny finally drops. And of course the hormone issue is going to get worse before it gets better, joy of joys

 

Thanks for your input Tally, much appreciated.

 

Karen

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[joybed]

Hi as you may have read ny my post lack of respect we are in a similar though much position to yoursef. Obcviously i am not tryimg to trivialise wehat you are going through but we were in your situatoion a few years ago didn,t really tackle the problem and now the problems are so much worse. I suppose what I am trying to say is try really hard to work at it now and don,t let it escalate. Marcus attempts to manipulate the whole family and now is using the I don,t belong with this family anymore tactic. We are now in the horrible situation of having to be really tough at a time when he and we feel very vulnerable and this isn,t how i imagined parenting to be. Hope you find a way around it, if so let me know.

What meds is J on we were seeing CAMHS a while back Marcus was self harming, depressed and very destructive but they said they wouldn,t consider meds unless he actually attempted suicide. I know nothing about Meds but am wondering if they would help, we are getting no help, CAMHS have discharged us, we have been on the waiting list for art therapy for a year and everyone the paed consultant refers us to turns us down as M doesn,t have learning difficulties.

Sorry if this sounds negative.

[KarenT]

Thanks for replying joybed. Not negative at all, just realistic about the support available, and I'm very sorry you've had such a difficult time accessing it for your son.

 

Totally take what you're saying about tackling it sooner rather than later, which is why I was asking for advice now. We are dealing with it, on a day to day, plugging away basis, but it's incredibly hard work (as I'm sure you'll agree). J may attempt to manipulate us but he doesn't manage it - we are very firm with him and as the adults in the household what we say goes, whether he likes that or not. Hopefully in the long term that will bring benefits, it's just a bit of a pain while it's happening. I was hoping that other parents who'd gone through similar stages with their pre-teens might have something to suggest that I'm not already doing so I'll be grateful for any suggestions. We need all the options we can get so that I can have a few things up my sleeve for the future.

 

J is taking Equasym (methylphenidate), another brand of Ritalin. Like your son, J was refused medication by our CAMHS and we had to go private for a thorough assessment. CAMHS haven't contacted us for 15 months although we're supposed to have yearly reviews. They never attended school review meetings (though to be fair, the schools always 'forgot' to invite them) and I have reason to believe that J has been discharged without formal notification. Can't say I'm that bothered as they've been particularly useless in our case - we manage far better since we've been out of the system than we ever did in it. The stress of dealing with inept professionals was incredibly wearing.

 

J's private consultant has been involved in research which suggests that many children with ASDs also have considerable symptoms of ADHD, which could be helped by medication but isn't being prescribed without a formal ADHD dx. This would account for CAMHS refusal to medicate J or even consider a trial. Knowing the lengths we've gone to with behaviour management strategies over the years I've always known that there was a limit to what J could achieve on management alone, and medication has proved to be highly beneficial for him. Of course there are still issues - it's not a magic bullet - but his concentration and focus for example are much improved. Even his cooperation is better than it was, in some ways such as academic work.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to respond and I hope you manage to access some support for your son soon.

 

Karen

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[Sally44]

My son is like this too.

It is hard to get through to him as his emotions are escalating to try to tell him that he will feel so much better if he just steps back and calms down a bit rather than errupting like a volcano and becoming abusive. Afterwards he is so upset and angry with himself, but at the time it is just like venom directed at anyone within earshot.

 

So I always try not to take anything he says personally. It is his only way of venting and I know he does not mean the things he says. But he always has to apologise and now he is becoming older I don't let him continue spouting abuse. He has asked me "will I ever be able to control it". And I've told him honestly that we all have times when we want to say bad things but we stop ourselves, and that is what he has to try to do.

 

What tends to trigger him off is when he attempts something that 'he thinks he can do' and then finds he cannot. So I will suggest he attempts it in a certain way, or say I will help him and he will refuse and say he wants to do it himself. When he tries and discovers he cannot do it the frustration and anger just cause him to explode.

 

I think this is because he is of high average cognitive ability and can see his peers doing all the things he cannot. He can see 'how' it should be done, but when he attempts it himself all his difficulties compound on eachother and cause him huge difficulties with every aspect of his life.

 

This is one of the reasons that I tried him at cubs. And thankfully it is working. He will learn in that environment and it is highly supportive. Have you considered something like that to get him out the house and in a peer group he can cope with. There are cubs groups with SEN children. The leader has an autistic daughter and there is a ratio of 1 adult to 4 children which is really good.

 

When my son does explode, I remove him to his bedroom to calm down. I tell him to stop saying rude things and escort him upstairs. In his room he calms down on his own and then he comes down and we talk it through. I am very aware that I need to have all this structure in place before he becomes much bigger and starts adolescence.

[Kazzen161]

Have you tried splitting the tasks into very small steps, and using it like a tick list, so he can see the progress to independence? Maybe tie it in with backward chaining (where you aim for the last bit of the task to to be done independently, then the second to last, so he always gets the "reward" of finishing the task on his own).

 

so eg: if a task consists of steps x,y and z

 

do x with help, do y with help, do z with help (3 times)

" " do z on my own (3 times)

" , do y on my own, do z on my own (3 times)

do it all on my own.

 

Maybe add in a "minimal prompting" stage.

 

Re: TV - could you tape his programmes, so he can earn the right to see them (quickly or slowly depending on his behaviour), rather than losing the right to see them.

[KarenT]

Sorry for delay in replying - busy day yesterday and I didn't get on the computer.

 

Kazzen - yes, we break tasks down - sometimes it helps and sometimes not. And we plan in advance to introduce new ones and how he'll go about it, what the rewards and consequences will be etc, set SMART goals to help him manage. The problem at present is that he USED to work well with this but lately he appears to be setting out to scupper it for himself by non-cooperation and defiance. It's almost like his need for control in the situation is greater than his desire for the reward that goes with accomplishment, iykwim. Minimal prompting too. We use code words in public so that we don't have to get involved in a potentially embarrassing discussion about expectations but he's no longer responding (consistently) to that either.

 

Have tried recording tv programmes but it minimises the impact (in fact he tried to negotiate that for Gadget Show last night). To him that means there has been no consquence for his behaviour as the reward is still there for later. He grumbled mildly last night about Gadget Show then went off to bed at 8pm while we watched it - perfectly accepting of the fairness of it.

 

Actually, an outsider would probably think he's testing the boundaries and is unsure of them, hence he keeps pushing me to keep drawing that line. But the reality is that we've had consistent boundaries in place since he was very young, No has always meant No and I always carry out any threats I make if a behaviour persists. Realistically he should know by now, at 11, that the boundary is always there and isn't flexible, but he seems to have an unsatisfied need to keep challenging it. I really don't know how to tackle that other than keep on going and hope that one day (perhaps when he's 35 ) he'll get the message.

 

Thanks for your reply, Sally. J no longer has the explosive rages that used to go with not cooperating and failing to manipulate me to get his own way, and I sympathise that you're still going through this stage with your son - it's exhausting . We've done loads of anger management work over the years and coming out of school was the final piece in the jigsaw as far as that was concerned - with those massive stressors removed he could focus on managing his anger better and it's a good six months since he had a major blow-out. We don't even get any abuse any more, which is a blessing. But yes, that was part of the problem for many years.

 

Your cubs group sounds wonderful - you're very lucky to have it (J's karate club is similar, very supportive). J has lots of social groups and is doing much better at them (and can be involved in more of them) since coming out of school. At swimming for example he's no different to any of the other children, which is wonderful to see after all these years! Doing well at karate too, enjoys mixing with other children in both groups and manages it well. Interestingly, his worst experiences in clubs have been with those supposedly for SN children, where we've found staff (contrary to your own positive experiences) very ill-equipped to deal with the children in their care. I removed J from one such club around October last year after I caught the play leader literally screaming into J's face that he must take part in the unplanned but much hated activity they'd arranged for everyone (dance) because HE was in charge and J should do as he was told. Actually, J manages better in more mainstream settings these days, which is fortunate if that's all that's on offer around here as an alternative.

 

The current problem is definitely one of a battle of wills between J and me, though having reflected on Jsmum's reply I think medication may be an issue here too - thanks Jsmum! His dosage/brand changed in early January and I think he perhaps hasn't settled into it as well as he might have, so will contact the consultant and see what he suggests.

 

Very many thanks for input on this, always much appreciated.

 

Karen

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