Anger & Violence in Autism

[Mumble]

A question and a concern really. I know this issue has been touched on before but only in terms of people saying anger etc. are not part of the diagnostic criteria of ASDs. I think I may have said that actually...

 

The question I have, therefore, is why is this link so commonly made? It's not just a public perception thing either but in legal documents, and I'm sure that in such cases such an erroneous link must be illegal?

 

As an example, I'm currently (without much success) trying to get travel insurance which will cover my complex medical condition (nowt to do with Autism). However, every pre-existing thingywhatsit has to be declared otherwise the policy isn't valid. One of the things you have to declare is an ASD. So far OK, but then when you select ASD, the first thing you get is a list of 'associated conditions' which includes: behaviour issues, behavioural disturbances, aggressive behaviours. Even when saying 'no' to all of these, the first screening question they ask is: 'How many times in the last 6 months have you exhibited violent and/or aggressive behaviours?' This isn't just one insurance company - all the specialist insurers (which are apparently sensitive to all disabilities ) ask the same (although it's probably a standard list).

 

So, where does this assumption and therefore this assumed need to ask this question come from? Where did the linkage of anger/aggression and Autism originate, what perpetuated it and how can it be allowed, without medical evidence, in legal documents like insurance policies. They don't ask if you have been aggressive if you declare eczema but that is no more associated with anger in the diagnostic/medical literature than Autism.

 

[baddad]

God - that is scary... travel insurance?

Can't answer your question, but I'm damn sure the fact that over the past few years a number of barristers have presented it as an explanation for their clients behaviours hasn't helped. And when you get the 'profeshunals' leaping in to back that up in a misguided attempt to highlight the difficulties of autism and/or to promote themselves as 'expert witnesses' or 'experts generally' or even just because the pay's pretty good it aint gonna help, is it?

And then you've got years of speculation about ASD's being related to all sorts of other things that have been associated with violence (mental health generally, 'Childhood Schizophrenia', ADHD Dyslexia etc etc etc etc including all the 'new' ones) and all sorts of 'profeshunals' willing to speculate that mass murderers were 'probably' because they didn't have many friends or go out much, and then there's just the fact that autistic people are 'different' and that's suspect straight away, ennit?

Sadly, it's the same profeshunals who do the dissin' that are also quoted by the NAS when they say there is no link - so who wants to pick the peanuts out of that particular pile of poop?

 

Any pub on a Friday night. How many autistic are glassing each other? Now perhaps insurance company's should be asking 'do you go drinking on Friday nights' rather than 'are you autistic'...

Edited April 28, 2010 by baddad

[call me jaded]

How many people express anger when their attempts at communication are not understood? Just about all of them. It's an intensely frustrating position to be in. Either that or not bother to communicate at all. Few smile happily through it all.

 

For that stunning bit of analysis I'd say the anger is directly related to autism in as much as autism is defined by communication impairment. The entire Early Bird programme is focussed on understanding and doing what you can to minimise such difficulties. Anger was a very, very prominent part of my young son's life. He was intensely angry that I failed to read his mind, he did lash out and was extremely challenging. That diagnosis has not gone away, I have equipped myself to deal with it. Should he go into a setting where they are not equipped to deal with it he will become exceedingly angry. I see it as a perfectly valid question.

 

BTW my insurers (Co-op) accepted autism without any questions.

[Mumble]

God - that is scary... travel insurance?

Yep. Though, to be fair, it only costs £4.72 more to be Autistic...

 

[baddad]

How many people express anger when their attempts at communication are not understood? Just about all of them. It's an intensely frustrating position to be in. Either that or not bother to communicate at all. Few smile happily through it all.

 

For that stunning bit of analysis I'd say the anger is directly related to autism in as much as autism is defined by communication impairment. The entire Early Bird programme is focussed on understanding and doing what you can to minimise such difficulties. Anger was a very, very prominent part of my young son's life. He was intensely angry that I failed to read his mind, he did lash out and was extremely challenging. That diagnosis has not gone away, I have equipped myself to deal with it. Should he go into a setting where they are not equipped to deal with it he will become exceedingly angry. I see it as a perfectly valid question.

 

BTW my insurers (Co-op) accepted autism without any questions.

 

But how many people with those kinds of anger issues are going to be filling in insurance forms to travel alone? And how is it any different to someone expressing anger on a plane because they are incoherently drunk on in flight booze or off their t!ts from all the stuff they dropped before boarding the plane home from Ibiza?

yes, frustration does equate to anger, but I think that applies equally to NT's, and proportionally, among HFA adults I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say probably less

 

L&P

 

BD

[baddad]

Yep. Though, to be fair, it only costs £4.72 more to be Autistic...

 

Oi Vay! A bargain already!

[Mumble]

How many people express anger when their attempts at communication are not understood? Just about all of them.

But that doesn't make it right, does it? I'm also in the little bit that means you have to say 'just about' rather than 'all'. Yes, I get frustrated, but I don't get angry. I have never been violent towards another person (might have thought about it!! ).

 

But how many people with those kinds of anger issues are going to be filling in insurance forms to travel alone?

Ah, well that's the next question they asked - was I travelling alone. I don't know how much they'd add to the premium if I said yes to that or even if they'd agree to insure me, because I am going with a carer (not for ASD).

 

[av16]

I think that frustration plays a part but do you not think personality type does as well? I would say my son (AS) would probably had a bit of a temper even if he didn't have AS (of course it's hard to say and I'll never know) whereas one of my daughters (both NT) is a very calm person, the other is far more fiery.

 

What I will say is DS is now much calmer and it has been really hard work to get him to this position. He still gets angry but is now able to deal with it more appropriately and episodes of violence now far less frequent - he can actually say why he's angry now sometimes.

 

I hope now I've written this it's not tempting fate

 

[darky]

I think anger relates to Autism as much as it relates to everyone. I think it's proportionate. An example was given about frustration due to communication difficulties. NT people get frustrated and angry if their points are not heard or understood, but we can assume that as Autistics have a communication difficulty they may get frustrated in a different way, but couldn't it be said that with difficulties understanding sarcasm for example, they would be less likely to react angrilly than a NT person would? Frustration and anger are different emotions, and I think that does become confused. There is a big mix of personalities in Autism. Some are very quiet and avoid confrontation. Yes they may feel anger, because that is normal for anyone, but it's down to how they express it that decides whether anger is actually an issue, but couldn't that be said for everyone? If they were to swear and threaten, they could be expressing the anger the same way most people I see every day to be fair!

[justine1]

That is really annoying

I agree anyone can have anger issues,in fact I reckon if you go to an airport and find someone screaming and shouting at a manager its likely to be an NT person,often intoxicated(as mentioned above.)

 

Sam is aggressive at school and not at home,so I believe this is down to the school not being consistent and not helping him when he needs it,luckily they dont say its down to his AS,because I would be the first to say no its not.At home my 9yr old and 20mth old have alot more anger than my other two,and generally they are very similar in character and very NT!!!!

 

Recently we went to have lunch somewhere and we were meant to go somewhere after that but we never had time,I thought Sam would throw a tantrum but he didnt.It happened again yesterday he wanted to show his friends his newly decorated room(spongebob) I said no cause the house was in a mess,he just said "okay" and went back out to play,my eldest was like this he said "wow he didnt complain."So I definatley think as he is getting older he is learning to accept things/dissapointment more,its quite reassuring.

Edited April 28, 2010 by justine1

[baddad]

Been thinking about this some more...

 

Thought the first: 'Frustrated' 'angry' 'aggressive' and 'violent' aren't the same things - though they are of course potentially connnected. Yes, i'd agree that frustration is a factor in every autistic person's life (and everyone elses, of course, but I think most folks would agree moreso in autism), and often that frustration will turn to 'anger'... but the next phases - the aggression and violence - are inappropriate responses to the first two, and that has far more to do with conditioning than being an inherent 'feature' of autism.

I may be lucky, but i've met very very few aggressive and violent autistic adults in my life - and i've probably met more autistic adults than your average type bear - wherever those people have been 'on the spectrum'. Certainly the ones with learning difficulties or who are non-verbal etc have been no more violent than non-autistic people with profound learning disabilities or who are non-verbal because of those difficulties, and when not being 'challenged' probably less likely to put themselves in situations that would frustrate them. At the other end, the HF autistic people i know/care for have generally been much more passive than their non-autistic peers, and have spent so many years having 'appropriate' responses drummed into them that they view things like this in a very 'black and white' manner. That's not to say, of course, that an undercontrolled autistic person will be inherently less likely to be violent than an undercontrolled NT person, just that 'undercontrolled' has nothing to do with autism. Think about the young adults on the BBC documentary the other night and ask yourself, 'do you think these people are less or more likely to go out and have a fight for fun on a saturday night?' I know what I think... On the other documentary currently running we see a group of autistic people spanning all 'levels' of the spectrum. For the most part, they all seem to avoid confrontation and to run away rather than become aggressive. The exceptions to that appear to be the most able and the most verbal (and therefore the least likely to be frustrated) but also the ones who seem to be affected by poor parenting/control techniques. So again, the autism hasn't got anything to do with the violence and aggression whether it arises from 'frustration' or not. It appears to be related to exactly the same thing it is related to in the NT population: control & manipulation, and environmental factors that do not address those issues.

 

Thought the 2nd - I forgot! Might remember later!

 

L&P

 

BD

[Tally]

I know there are times I have been told I have been verbally aggressive - so many that I think this genuinely must be the way I come across sometimes when I get upset. Maybe someone taller, more muscly and more expressive with the arms might be seen as physically threatening in a similar situation.

 

From the point of view of the insurance company, maybe they simply have to cover every possibility in order to make sure you are fully insured for every eventuality.

 

"Behavioural issues" may not necessarily just mean "bad" behaviour, but also things like risk-taking or other behaviours that might put you at risk of injury. It could be more about how you appear to others than the intent behind it.

[darky]

The other thing is that fear coming from phobias that may lead to violence shouldn't be linked to anger. None of my three are violent, and they all avoid confrontation. The only exception to "violence" was my daughter, who's intense fear made her lash out. That certainly wasn't due to "anger" and her lashing out was undoubtably fight or flight response to her being restrained to stop her running away from her fear. As soon as the "danger" was out the way, she stopped and was extremely upset to have lashed out. She only physically lashed out 3 times I think, but those times she was like a cornered rat, and there wasn't anything much I could do to get rid of what she was afraid of. One time was a fireworks display she wanted to go to. (we just used to take the boys) She had been afraid of them, but come on so much at school, and the school were hosting a display, so she really wanted to go. She coped well with the fireworks that were going off before the display started, she took in the atmosphere, she seemed happy and relaxed. There were 100's of people there, and we were stood surrounded by people. She counted down with the crowd, and when the first firework went off, so did she, but I couldn't do anything else other than restrain her because I couldn't move out. 20 minutes I had her under my coat swaddled so she couldn't run off, whilst she bit me, pinched me and kicked my shins. As soon as the fireworks stopped, so did she, but she was mortified at kicking off, really mortified, not only for kicking off, but because she didn't handle seeing the fireworks, she really wanted to. That was 4 years ago, and shes not wanted to go back, yet!

[Mumble]

Going here (but I'm allowed cause I'm autistic it's my thread)

 

The exceptions to that appear to be the most able and the most verbal (and therefore the least likely to be frustrated)

I disagree with the assumption here generally. I suspect that the more aware one is of being different and of the intricate communicative difficulties they have the more frustrated they may become at feeling a failure to be able to communicate 'normally'. If you're unaware of any other way, and I think importantly that 'normal' communication isn't expected of you, you're less likely to be frustrated (just conjecture obviously, as I can't experience both). I do know from my experience that I find it more frustrating when I almost get communication right or am attempting to do things normally and it doesn't work than where I accept from the outset that something's going to be an issue and find another way, usually written, to express myself.

 

[call me jaded]

Let's just remember insurers are not interested in cause and effect. They are statisticians and know/observe that autism and expressions of anger are linked. After all 'meltdown' is a fairly common phrase.

 

There are some assumptions here about low-functioning autism that are very wide of the mark of the kind of autism I live with - it's nothing to do with lack of awareness, more to do with being completely unconcerned about other people and being unmotivated to communicate.

[baranigirl]

could some of the 'frustration' or 'anger' apparently apparent in 'autistics' come from a lack of tone in the voice? As in inappropriate levels / expression which is part of AS? Therefore it is actually being misunderstood?

[trekster]

A question and a concern really. I know this issue has been touched on before but only in terms of people saying anger etc. are not part of the diagnostic criteria of ASDs. I think I may have said that actually...

 

The question I have, therefore, is why is this link so commonly made? It's not just a public perception thing either but in legal documents, and I'm sure that in such cases such an erroneous link must be illegal?

 

i know one aspie who was told by the DVLA he could drive with his recent diagnosis. This guy had been driving for about 40 years and suddenly declaring his aspergers on his driving insurance prevented him from driving. After 6 months of very upset phone calls he finally was told "we told you that driving was ok with your disability all along". im sure that sort of situation for a guy with no history of driving or other offences was illegal?

 

People believing the press and taking it too literally (not just the autistics reading the press), think about it the press is mainly about bad news. So the case of the kid who 'stole' their parents car at age 4 and drove it down the road (cant remember if he hit a tree). Also Darren Harkin escaping from the Hayes (medium security place that previously sectioned autistics were permitted to use for rehabilitative purposes).

 

Another reason could be due to someone grabbing a self harming autisitc (eg someone banging their head on the floor) and this action is perceived as an attack. The autistic doesn't realise the interceptor (cant think of a better word) is attempting to help them.

 

The sort of simmering volcano analogy could apply here, where they take so much abuse (physical, mental or emotional) before hitting out at the last straw ie the final thing that caused their anger to become violence. ive done this once at college, it was about a year post diagnosis and i was severely depressed and in constant pain from the undiagnosed fibromyalgia. Some twits were throwing paper at me and i was so scared i couldn't get up and run away i sort of shutdown. Then one of them came and hit me on the head with the newspaper i lashed out at him and his accomplice who was now trying to stop me attacking this wind up merchant. Only a year earlier i would have just burst into tears instead which is what happens most times (or i tell them where to go).

As an example, I'm currently (without much success) trying to get travel insurance which will cover my complex medical condition (nowt to do with Autism). However, every pre-existing thingywhatsit has to be declared otherwise the policy isn't valid. One of the things you have to declare is an ASD. So far OK, but then when you select ASD, the first thing you get is a list of 'associated conditions' which includes: behaviour issues, behavioural disturbances, aggressive behaviours. Even when saying 'no' to all of these, the first screening question they ask is: 'How many times in the last 6 months have you exhibited violent and/or aggressive behaviours?' This isn't just one insurance company - all the specialist insurers (which are apparently sensitive to all disabilities ) ask the same (although it's probably a standard list).

 

i haven't come across this problem with the Post Office. ive been asked about mental health problems but been told not to mention them since they didn't seriously affect me or prevent me from flying.

So, where does this assumption and therefore this assumed need to ask this question come from? Where did the linkage of anger/aggression and Autism originate, what perpetuated it and how can it be allowed, without medical evidence, in legal documents like insurance policies. They don't ask if you have been aggressive if you declare eczema but that is no more associated with anger in the diagnostic/medical literature than Autism.

 

Could be due to the "challenging behaviour" link (if it helps i don't particularly like this term either)? One parent was thrown off an aeroplane in Chicago because her son would not calm down. She sued and UK companies are probably worried about this happening to them.

 

[trekster]

How many people express anger when their attempts at communication are not understood? Just about all of them. It's an intensely frustrating position to be in. Either that or not bother to communicate at all. Few smile happily through it all.

 

For that stunning bit of analysis I'd say the anger is directly related to autism in as much as autism is defined by communication impairment. The entire Early Bird programme is focussed on understanding and doing what you can to minimise such difficulties. Anger was a very, very prominent part of my young son's life. He was intensely angry that I failed to read his mind, he did lash out and was extremely challenging. That diagnosis has not gone away, I have equipped myself to deal with it. Should he go into a setting where they are not equipped to deal with it he will become exceedingly angry. I see it as a perfectly valid question.

 

BTW my insurers (Co-op) accepted autism without any questions.

 

Im pleased your insurers did this so you can travel.

[trekster]

I think anger relates to Autism as much as it relates to everyone. I think it's proportionate. An example was given about frustration due to communication difficulties. NT people get frustrated and angry if their points are not heard or understood, but we can assume that as Autistics have a communication difficulty they may get frustrated in a different way, but couldn't it be said that with difficulties understanding sarcasm for example, they would be less likely to react angrilly than a NT person would? Frustration and anger are different emotions, and I think that does become confused. There is a big mix of personalities in Autism. Some are very quiet and avoid confrontation. Yes they may feel anger, because that is normal for anyone, but it's down to how they express it that decides whether anger is actually an issue, but couldn't that be said for everyone? If they were to swear and threaten, they could be expressing the anger the same way most people I see every day to be fair!

 

i have problems recognising sarcasm in print unless i know the person. Sometimes this leads to all sorts of issues and asking why the person lied and what is their problem with me. i get easily frustrated but due to being a lady i think that will pass in a few days. The lines between anger, frustration and confusion seem to merge with me.

[trekster]

could some of the 'frustration' or 'anger' apparently apparent in 'autistics' come from a lack of tone in the voice? As in inappropriate levels / expression which is part of AS? Therefore it is actually being misunderstood?

 

 

Good point, autistics could seem angry, stressed, aggressive when it fact they're not.

[Mumble]

Let's just remember insurers are not interested in cause and effect. They are statisticians and know/observe that autism and expressions of anger are linked. After all 'meltdown' is a fairly common phrase.

 

There are some assumptions here about low-functioning autism that are very wide of the mark of the kind of autism I live with - it's nothing to do with lack of awareness, more to do with being completely unconcerned about other people and being unmotivated to communicate.

My apologies, I was simply writing from my own experience comparing how I perceive things and how my brother (low functioning) appears to possibly perceive (or not) the world. I wasn't making assumptions with no basis. If a person is unmotivated to communicate can they be frustrated by the experience? Does the frustration not come in when attempts to communicate do not work as envisaged?

 

I do disagree with the way you seem to be defining a meltdown and linking this with anger. I have meltdowns, but I don't act in an angry or aggressive way towards others. I've said before that I don't see meltdowns as a sign of anger (or the other way round as anger leading to meltdowns). Anger may lead to behaviours mimicking meltdown but I'm not convinced it is a 'true' meltdown when it is an expression of anger - a meltdown suggests the individual to have gone beyond the communicative phase (and expressing anything is about communicating).

 

The discussion sort of running through a few posts here about verbal anger and difficulty with using a appropriate tone is interesting and I think there might be something in that alongside a tendency towards bluntness and saying things as they are - I can see how a combination of these may be taken by others if the context is wrong as an angry response.

 

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Certainly when it comes to my son, aggression, behavioural issues, etc, I believe, are very much part and parcel of AS as a result of anxiety and an inability to identify and control his feelings (he's 8 btw). CAMHS, my son's consultant, school and myself all share that belief that R can become aggressive and volatile when he's anxious (changes in routine, not being allowed to be dictatorial, social situations, etc). Aggression and behavioural prooblems can be issues with NT people, so I'm not suggesting for a second that AS is to blame, but rather pointing out that is can provide an explanation as opposed to an excuse for bad behaviour, aggression, violence, etc.

 

Caroline.

Edited April 28, 2010 by cmuir

[trekster]

My apologies, I was simply writing from my own experience comparing how I perceive things and how my brother (low functioning) appears to possibly perceive (or not) the world. I wasn't making assumptions with no basis. If a person is unmotivated to communicate can they be frustrated by the experience? Does the frustration not come in when attempts to communicate do not work as envisaged?

 

Both valid points which im inclined to agree with here.

I do disagree with the way you seem to be defining a meltdown and linking this with anger. I have meltdowns, but I don't act in an angry or aggressive way towards others. I've said before that I don't see meltdowns as a sign of anger (or the other way round as anger leading to meltdowns). Anger may lead to behaviours mimicking meltdown but I'm not convinced it is a 'true' meltdown when it is an expression of anger - a meltdown suggests the individual to have gone beyond the communicative phase (and expressing anything is about communicating).

 

Some meltdowns are angry others can be crying meltdowns, unless you mean shutdowns where you shake and cannot communicate with others due to the overload you are experiencing?

The discussion sort of running through a few posts here about verbal anger and difficulty with using a appropriate tone is interesting and I think there might be something in that alongside a tendency towards bluntness and saying things as they are - I can see how a combination of these may be taken by others if the context is wrong as an angry response.

 

Yeah i was told by a NAS worker that i was being blunt on the internet recently.

 

[trekster]

Hi

 

Certainly when it comes to my son, aggression, behavioural issues, etc, I believe, are very much part and parcel of AS as a result of anxiety and an inability to identify and control his feelings (he's 8 btw). CAMHS, my son's consultant, school and myself all share that belief that R can become aggressive and volatile when he's anxious (changes in routine, not being allowed to be dictatorial, social situations, etc). Aggression and behavioural prooblems can be issues with NT people, so I'm not suggesting for a second that AS is to blame, but rather pointing out that is can provide an explanation as opposed to an excuse for bad behaviour, aggression, violence, etc.

 

Caroline.

 

This is interesting and the strange part of it is in a way all points are right.

[baranigirl]

unless you mean shutdowns where you shake and cannot communicate with others due to the overload you are experiencing?

 

I never knew that, DP experienced this the same night he sat on a roof 3 storeys up and I had no idea what to do with him as I had never seen anything like it before

 

[trekster]

I never knew that, DP experienced this the same night he sat on a roof 3 storeys up and I had no idea what to do with him as I had never seen anything like it before

 

 

Shutdowns can be mistaken for catatonia but im not sure what can be done to bring them out of it. Maybe the same treatment as would happen for an absence seizure? The person literally ends up blocking out everything around them. i will ask my friend what can be done to help someone in shutdown and get back to this thread, excuse the going off topic part.

 

To go back to the anger and violence in autism..... i know 2 autistics who were playing with cushions, lad A eventually said "stop thats enough" then went into shutdown but lad B couldnt stop the activity, eventually lad b attempted to playfight with lad A jokingly strangling him. Lad A came out of shutdown to push lad b off, then lad b was pulled away. im trying to remember what happened so sorry if this is confusing, but a meltdown can lead to a shutdown during the recovery phase.

 

Sometimes the shutdown can be delayed as i almost passed out at a bus stop after my pushy neighbour (now moved on) raged at me. The guy reminds me of a permanently wound up norris cole.

[baddad]

Going here (but I'm allowed cause I'm autistic it's my thread)

 

 

I disagree with the assumption here generally. I suspect that the more aware one is of being different and of the intricate communicative difficulties they have the more frustrated they may become at feeling a failure to be able to communicate 'normally'. If you're unaware of any other way, and I think importantly that 'normal' communication isn't expected of you, you're less likely to be frustrated (just conjecture obviously, as I can't experience both). I do know from my experience that I find it more frustrating when I almost get communication right or am attempting to do things normally and it doesn't work than where I accept from the outset that something's going to be an issue and find another way, usually written, to express myself.

 

 

Sorry -

 

I used to take a similar view, but i don't any longer. It's a complex issue, certainly, and i'm not entirely sure how i feel (iykwim) on it - I remember Arthur C. Clarke saying of something he couldn't quite make up his mind about 'I'm a believer mondays wednesdays and fridays and a non believer the rest of the week - but I think I edge more to the view that HF autistics who can identify what is causing their stress have it somewhat easier than those who live in constant stress and cannot identify why...

Referring again to that 'other' documentary I mentioned, I see absolutly no reason (or evidence) why/that i.e. Mollie's or Ben's stress levels are/should be higher than those experienced by the other kids - in fact I would argue the opposite. Their 'anger', as I said, seems to have little to do with their degree of functioning, but everything to do with the way their anger has been responded to. Jonathon and Claire, the other ones who appear most HF, do not show stress at comparable levels to the other, more profoundly affected participants, but neither do they respond with the aggression shown by Ben/Mollie.

Touching on something 'Delia' said - Ros Blackburn suggests the major difference between AS and autism is that the AS people care what other people think, but Autistic people couldn't give a flyer. I think that's partially true, but I don't think - for that reason - you can bundle the 'types' or 'levels' of stress the different groups might suffer and call them 'like for like'. Anyhoo - just an opinion and more than happy to agree to differ (especially as I'm not entirely sure what i think on this one in the first place!)... but looked at in the context of my son's life I would 'judge' that the benefits of 'HF' outweigh the disadvantages in terms of general levels of stress/distress.

 

L&P

 

BD