Tribunal advice please

[emmasmum]

DD (14) was diagnosed with Aspergers last year despite the LEA EP telling us last summer that she would be highly unlikely to have Aspergers.

 

She was assessed at age 6 as being on 73rd centile cognitively, which we were told was high average.

 

Primary school had her on school action but didn't really do anything to help and refused to accept she had social problems.

 

At the end of primary school we found out she had auditory neuropathy - a hearing problem. She transferred to secondary school with a hearing device (similar to radio transmitted hearing aid). Moved onto school action plus.

 

Secondary school focused on the hearing problem, though they did put in place E-LSA and backed me up when I decided to try for assessment for Aspergers. EP (before the diagnosis) recommended Em have weekly emotional literacy sessions, social skills work and circle of friends. The emotional literacy stuff took a long time to get started but she was finally referred to school counsellor in February and that is now happening. Social skills training hasn't happened and nor has circle of friends.

 

Em dropped a GCSE for "study skills" where they help her with her homework and coursework.

 

Her target grades are 4 Cs and 3 Ds - her progress is below expectations in 3 subjects. We have been told the D target for Maths is challenging.

 

LEA evidence due in today - they have emailed it to me. They say Emma's cognitive scores are within the average range and so is her attainment. They say she is having 10 hours of support per week provided by the school. They say a statement won't add anything and by the time it is in place she will be leaving school. They say do an inclusion partnership agreement which school have already said is a waste of time. School say they're doing all they can. They don't support our request for a statement.

 

Emma's science teacher commented the other day that cognitive tests done when a child is young often don't hold true as they get older - this is the first time anyone has said this. The basis of my frustration has been that she scored high average cognitively so should be achieving Bs and Cs not Cs and Ds. She is also depressed and having CBT due to her very low confidence and self esteem and has low attendance levels because of this.

 

Will I be laughed out of tribunal. They way they've put it makes perfect sense - have I been misguided?

 

I spoke to IPSEA before the LEA sent me their reply but to be honest the person I spoke to was quite wishy washy and didn't really help.

 

Thanks

 

Carol

 

[Suze]

There is a definite element of truth in what the school say, 10 hrs is quite good going on SA plus, and a statement may not glean you much more if you managed to get one.There is also some truth in the fact that cognitive tests done when young don,t really hold up as they get older.If your daughter has been missing some school you would also expect her grades to suffer aswell.I would push school again to put in place the circle of friend/social group.However the CBT will hopefully benefit her aswell.Its a very tough age for kids my son is the same age.He has a very high IQ and on this basis should be scoring A,s, however he fares badly in exam conditions , won,t do any expressive writing in english unless its about helicopters and is dyslexic to boot.Wish I could be more helpful but wish you all the best , suzex

[Sally44]

The Statementing process takes 26 weeks in total. At that point you may wish to go to tribunal which would take longer. If the Statement contained everything your daughter needs then she would be 14.5 years old (hardly school leaving age). Add on another 6 months if you go to tribunal.

Can you be more precise about what her difficulties are and what professional input she needs.

Statements are to provide anything over and above what a school can typically provide. For example if she has a need for a Speech Therapist to be involved (which could be part of a Social Skills programme), then you would be looking for a SALT report that stated she needs this programme which would equate to xxx hours per term (which would equate to weekly sessions of 30 mins). Typical NHS provision of SALT is via termly reviews of a programme that is carried out by a TA. So for SALT to be included in a Statement you are looking for over and above that.

In my case it was proven that under that SALT programme delivery the gap between my son and his peers was widening. We argued a need for direct 1:1 therapy from a therapist and not a TA because my son is capable and can learn quickly so the person deliverying the programme needed to be specialised and able to quickly adapt the programme. His difficulties are also complex and therefore the programme needed to be delivered by a therapist because they would quickly identify if my son could not achieve the SALT target and why and could alter it accordingly. A TA is not qualified to do that. However a TA does sit in and observe every session and then carry it out in school on a daily basis. Under that programme delivery my son moved into average/advanced scores on the areas targetted.

But that SALT programme had to be recommended by a private SALT.

What reports do you have and what needs do they identify and how do those professionals state those needs should be met in school in terms of hours and staffing provision (which member of staff/professional will be putting those hours of work in with your daughter?)

 

I don't know about cognitive ability lessening as a child gets older. What I would be more likely to expect would be that because the child does not have some skills - or some skills are very poor that they may find it harder and harder to achieve to the same level as their peers. In that scenario they would need more accommodation in school which may require more staff input.

For example what are her diffiuclties in maths? Does she have dyscalculia. Should she have access to a specialist teacher? Should a specialist teacher be differentiating her work, or providing school with certain software to help improve skills. Would she do better if she had a scribe? All the above are things that would be included in a Statement if that was what your daughter needed.

And it is also worth mentioning that if she needs extra time for exams that you need to get the ball rolling with arranging that now.

Does she have problems with organisation, planning, sequencing work, etc. These are all difficulties that supports can be put in place to help her achieve more.

 

Social skills/interaction skills and life skills are all things that she is going to need to be taught. You say she does not have a social skills group. That can be included in a Statement. That would usually involve a speech therapist.

 

I think you need to make a list of needs and see if you can cross reference them to recommendations on how those needs should be met. If there is nothing on paper then speak to the professionals and ask their opinion, and then follow it up with a clarification letter.

 

I'm not sure from your post if your daughter has been assessed towards a Statement?? If so then everyone should have assessed her and you should have received their reports. Then the LEA will send you a proposed statement.

 

I think at this stage there is nothing to lose by proceeding and seeing what the Proposed Statement contains.

 

Statements do contain more that what school can provide. That is the whole point of them. I was told exactly the same thing. Yet my son now gets weekly speech therapist from a therapist. That is more than is usually provided. I was also told there were no places at a school experienced with children on the spectrum. Yet my son got a place at that school and it is identified in his Statement.

[emmasmum]

mmm - I'd dispute that she gets 10 hrs of support. There might be LSAs in her lessons but that's because she is in lower/mid sets so they've got quite a caseload. However, I know it's not going to help at tribunal to criticise what the school are providing.

 

I do know what you're saying though - Em does badly in exams too and you're right - her low attendance (coupled with zero motivation) probably don't help any.

 

I'm just so angry that she went so long without things being identified and put in place. If they had been (socially I mean) maybe she wouldn't be having such a hard time now.

 

I would have also liked EP to assess her again and give us some strategies around her memory problems and confirm that she doesn't have dyslexia/dyscalcula

[Kazzen161]

If she did get a Statement it would open up the option of a specialist placement at 16+. Will she cope with a mainstream college?

 

If you try to get her a Statement and don't suceed, at least you will know that you tried.

[zenemu]

Typically kids with Aspergers do tend to excel early on and then struggle as they get a little older. This is often due to social pressure at school and more focus on things they are actually interested in, leading to other subjects and topics becoming less of a priority. Once a child with Aspergers is switched off from a topic or subject it is very difficult to get them to focus on it again, so school work often suffers as do test scores if she isn't interested in them. I would imagine the initial tests were correct and still stand true today (IQ only increases with age), but it really is luck of the draw. The Aspies who tend to excel academically are the ones who just happen to have a broad learning obsession.

 

Zen

Edited June 4, 2010 by zenemu

[Grace]

Hi,

 

You could get a second opinion in the form of a tribunal experienced Ed Psych, specialised in autism.

 

They should be able to observe your DD at school in lessons/free time and either do updated cognitive tests or, if they have been done fairly recently, give a view on the test results that you already have.

 

An independent view with a discussion on options post 16 education, might give you a clearer view as to whether to pursue a statement. A tribunal experienced Ed Psych should also be able to give an opinion on your chance of success at tribunal. I think many parents have gone through the statementing process as late in their child'a education in order to secure the right provision post 16.

 

For an initial report, you might be looking at £500+ but if your mother's instinct is saying you need to pursue this, it might bring you peace of mind one way or the other, if you get an independent view.

 

Best of luck

 

Grace/x

[Sally44]

The benefit of getting an independent EP report (if the LEA one does not contain anything substantial in it) would be that you may get a dx of a SPLD. If the EP recognises the following as needs your daughter has she may specify in her report that your daughter will need the following:

xxx hours support from a dedicated TA (for your daughter and no-one else).

xxx hours specialist teacher support per term equating to xxx mins per week with a TA carrying out a daily programme in school.

Social skills group with skills generalised into the classroom and playground with a SALT overseeing the group.

She might recommend that your daughter needs to be taught in small groups if she cannot learn or cope in whole class environments.

A high level of visual structure for memory difficulties or organisation problems with her being provided with a worksheet for each lesson which details the topic, what she needs (equipment), and which lists the sequence she needs to carry out the classroom based tasks.

ETC.

 

If you get a report like that then you can go to tribunal with that report as evidence. Otherwise anything you are asking for is what you 'feel' or 'believe' she needs, but you may have little evidence of that.

 

Try to get as much specific information from the professionals involved via school. They should specify and quantify provision because that is what the Code of Practice says, but usually they don't.

 

You can ask her current school how she is being supported now so that you are very clear when/if you go to tribunal. As you say 10 hours support is very open ended. If she needs 10 hours 1:1 then it should state that in a Statement. The support she receives now maybe general support that is available by a TA being present in the classroom. That is totally different to your daughter being assigned a dedicated TA who spends xx hours a day with your daughter in maths and english lessons (or throughout the day), and whose job it is to ensure your daughter understands the aim of the lesson before the lesson begins, ensure she has a printed worksheet for each lesson, etc etc. That makes it very precise so that both you and school know what she needs in school.

 

You have mentioned about missing school. Have you been to the GP/paediatrician that diagnosed your daughter about this? You should talk about her difficulties in school and see if they think she needs to be referred to a clinical psychologist or CAHMS. The use of this is that if your daughter is missing school due to associated anxiety/stress because she is not coping in school or is struggling with difficulties in school associated with her diagnosis of Aspergers then that is further evidence that all is not well.

 

I have a daughter who is 11 and who is going through a bad patch at school because of friendships failing, being excluded, low level bullying etc. She is NT. I am going to talk to her teacher about it because we have tried a number of things that haven't worked. She is very upset about it all and she is now saying she does not want to go into school. But to a certain extent this is typical of her age and school scenario and she does have the 'social skills' to make new friends if this current circle of friends does not work out. My son who is on the spectrum also has social difficulties but they are totally different to the ones my daughter has, although he may come across those same difficulties himself as well. My son struggles with basic language meaning, facial expression, gestures. He has literal interpretation of language, less imagination and theory of mind. He does not know how to initiate and sustain conversation etc. So he doesn't have the basic skills. But he is also very aware of his difference and that he underachieves compared with his peers. This causes alot of low self esteem.

 

I think you have nothing to lose by getting as much information as evidence as you can and seeing what provision you can secure for your daughter. And go to tribunal if you need to with whatever information you have. The panel will look at all the information and will make a decision on that.

[emmasmum]

Thanks everyone. I see that NAS now have a tribunal helpline so I might see if they can suggest some private EPs.

 

£500+ is manageable - but one I was told about was £2000+ which is beyond our means, even though if she got a placement at an independent school/college it would be worth it. I have grave concerns about how she will cope with leaving school and moving on to college as at the moment she only feels secure at school if her best friend (only friend) is there. It took her ages to find her way around the school and every year she struggles to get used to new teachers/new expectations etc.

 

IPSEA advised not to shell out for reports now, but to wait to see if they have to do the assessment and get them for that, which is why I've not done anything. IPSEA also said the LEA would likely approach me to reach agreement before their evidence had to be in but they haven't so they either think they have a really strong case or are trying to call my bluff.

 

Emma is already seeing CAMHS - the Aspergers diagnosis was via them and the phsychologist referred her on for CBT following the diagnosis as she has very low self esteem and confidence. The GP said she was suffering from depression but we haven't had that diagnosis confirmed by CAMHS, although they are fully aware of her difficulties. The Aspergers diagnosis said she would benefit from being educated by someone experienced in ASDs but I suspect that's far too woolly to mean anything.

 

I have to have my form confirming who will be attending in by 22 June - I suspect I'm too late to engage an EP and add their details to the form, but a written report would probably be better than nothing.

[Sally44]

What is the 22nd June deadline for?

Usually the LEA would produce a Proposed Statement, and the wording of that would thrashed out between parents/LEA. If the LEA do not produce a Statement that complies with the requirement of the Code of Practise, then the LEA will finalise the Statement and parents can appeal to tribunal.

At that point you would get any private reports and submit them to tribunal.

At any point before tribunal date the LEA may agree to what you are asking for, or you may need to go to tribunal with all the reports and evidence you have accumulated over the years.

[emmasmum]

sorry I didn't make myself clear - we are appealing against refusal to assess.

 

I think the 22nd is when I have to let them know who will be attending the tribunal. LEA haven't told them yet as they said they can't confirm because it's half term.

[Grace]

sorry I didn't make myself clear - we are appealing against refusal to assess.

 

I think the 22nd is when I have to let them know who will be attending the tribunal. LEA haven't told them yet as they said they can't confirm because it's half term.

 

Hi emmasmum,

 

The NAS also have a list of Ed Psych's online in their Autism Services Directory - click on 'education' and it will bring up 'independent educational psychologists' and you can then click on England and then your part of the Uk. Some Ed Psych's will travel, so don't be afraid to look outside your area, as the travel costs are not always as bad as you might think. I think they give an indication of their costs on the website.

 

I'd hope a quick chat with an Independent Ed Psych might also help to decide if to wait or go ahead now.

 

Best Of luck!

 

Grace/x

[Sally44]

You can ask the private EP if she can attend the tribunal as an expert witness. Some do do this, but they charge extra ontop of any private report fees to do this.

So the deadline for 'who' will be at the appeal does not have to include anyone other than yourself. But you could phone and check to see IF you have the option of inviting a private professional at a later date when they have assessed your daughter.

If you feel you have enough evidence that your daughter needs a statement then you can go to appeal without a private report. If the tribunal agree with you that will mean they will instruct the LEA to assess and issue a Statement.

At that stage you may find that the Statement the LEA produces does not contain everything you feel needs to go into it and at that point you may want to appoint a private EP to assess your daughter. Alternatively you could appoint a private EP now to assess your daughter and use that report as part of your evidence that she needs a Statement and what that statement should contain.

The private report should contain all her needs with recommendations on how those needs should be met in school.

Generally those needs and recommendations can simply but 'cut and pasted' into the Statement.

Some EPs can also visit her current school to give advice on whether they feel she is in an appropriate placement. Again that is an additional expense.