Exclusion number 4

[justine1]

Hi everyone

 

I need urgent advice,Sam has been excluded again today.He was shouting at everyone,throwing lego and threatening his LSA with a fly swot.

I believe this has happened as a result of something that happened with his father on the weekend,Sam has been 100% fine at school for 5 weeks or so now,in fact so much so that both the ed psych and autism outreach began to think he will be fine in mainstream with additional support.

 

It is not the first time he has had a bad week after such incident with his father,basically their father always asks/interrogates them about who has been at our house(he doesnt live here)especially my family as he doesnt want them near his kids.Anyway,on Friday my brother had come for a picnic while he was here Sam was pulling on me(he does this alot when I am talking to someone else)he then fell back and knocked his head on the corner of the TV stand.So when his dad came on Sunday he told him my brother was here,he then said that me and my brother were telling him to F'ing shutuo and then I threw him on the TV stand.My ex believed the story and I was begging Sam to tell the truth,then my ex was shouting at my eldest saying he is a liar and should be telling him whats going on in our house.I sent Sam upstairs so as to not upset him furthur.My ex eventually left saying he wont come again.So Sam was of course upset and is always made confused.I dont tell him to lie but I have said he doesnt have to tell his father everything,I havent been with him for over two yrs dont see how anything is his buisness.Two weeks ago he even said he shouldnt have a windowcleaner cause the guy is likely to be an ex con and its not safe

 

Like I say its not the first time,it happened at least four times in the past and then Sam has had a bad week in fact on other exclusion he had was after a very similar incident last NOvember.Now I am thinking surely its doing him more harm than good to see his dad,I know he loves his dad but then I am left to pick the pieces up when he has gone.His dad wont accept the diagnosis and has phoned the school complaining about all the exclusions etc,he is just undoing all the hard work all of us,incl Sam,are putting in.Is it possible to stop him seeing him,and my eldest,as my eldest is constantly being critisized by him,my ex says me and my family have destroyed him

 

Also do you think a permanent exclusion may push things a bit quicker with regards to his statement? The HT mentioned this before but now reluctant as she fears my ex may challenge it.I would go for it if it will help.

 

Thank you.

[baranigirl]

can only go on my experiences with my ex (who sounds VERY similar) and the girls see him regularly, always have done and probably will do until they are 94! However he has said nasty things to them about me and interrogeted them as well. I just ignored it all and EVENTUALLY he stopped.

 

2 yrs ago my then nearly 9 year old told me she wanted to live with her father, I knew this wasn't her talking, you know what I mean and it went on for several months. In the end I stood her on the doorstep (her father isn't allowed over it) and asked her outright where she wanted to live and she said with mum. It all stopped overnight as if it had never happened!

 

We have been separated for about 10 years now (I forget how long exactly) and the first 8 years were a blimming nightmare, my solicitor at the early stages said I could not prevent him seeing the girls unless he was causing them physical or emotional harm that could be proven in a court of law

 

It is obvious there is mental stress being inflicted on the boys as a way of getting back at you for leaving (my ex cheated and left me but still couldn't let go cos I kept the house) but proving it is a totally different ball game

 

Really hope he can see what he is doing to his kids and in the future they see him for the idiot he is (which my girls have, but they see him through their own sense of duty)

 

big hugs <'> ><

[justine1]

can only go on my experiences with my ex (who sounds VERY similar) and the girls see him regularly, always have done and probably will do until they are 94! However he has said nasty things to them about me and interrogeted them as well. I just ignored it all and EVENTUALLY he stopped.

 

2 yrs ago my then nearly 9 year old told me she wanted to live with her father, I knew this wasn't her talking, you know what I mean and it went on for several months. In the end I stood her on the doorstep (her father isn't allowed over it) and asked her outright where she wanted to live and she said with mum. It all stopped overnight as if it had never happened!

 

We have been separated for about 10 years now (I forget how long exactly) and the first 8 years were a blimming nightmare, my solicitor at the early stages said I could not prevent him seeing the girls unless he was causing them physical or emotional harm that could be proven in a court of law

 

It is obvious there is mental stress being inflicted on the boys as a way of getting back at you for leaving (my ex cheated and left me but still couldn't let go cos I kept the house) but proving it is a totally different ball game

 

Really hope he can see what he is doing to his kids and in the future they see him for the idiot he is (which my girls have, but they see him through their own sense of duty)

 

big hugs <'> ><

Thank you so much <'> I have alot of proof in that when I left I was in a womens refuge they have police statements from the boys,mostly my eldest.Social services were involved for 5mths and he wasnt allowed to see the kids at all.But they were missing him,especially Dan,so I actually went to a solicitor and asked for him to help get access for him.I now regret this.Eventually SS said they think all is well,but its because I didnt want my eldest to go to court I thought its too much for him to deal with,he was 8 at the time.

 

Sam has also told the school when his dad behaves this way and they making notes about this from last year.I have always thought he is causing damage and I have been told be many people that this is abuse but I just keep thinking it will be hard for them not to have their dad in their lives.My eldest doesnt want to see him,he has said so for the whole 2 yrs.Sam gets really worked up/anxious when his dad is coming,he says he doesnt want to see him but then changes but I believe its because he doesnt want to hurt his dads feeling or make his dad mad.Then Dan obviously is very close to him so...only the baby cant really say but I know he will be affected by him soon,this is what I was trying to avoid in the beginning.

 

It really is hard to decide what is best!!!!

[baranigirl]

Ask the older 2 boys independently what they want and follow their wishes for a while, sounds like you have got good grounds to remove him from your lives and a lot of what you have posted makes a more sense now!

 

Don't let him beat you down, he has no hold over you anymore <'>

[baddad]

I've been cautious about posting, because as a 'dad' I find the whole idea of men being refused access to their children horrifying, and from experience (but not personal, thank god) know that sometimes - I'd even go so far as to say often - children are used in adult games that have far more to do with bitterness and spite than they do the welfare of the kids, and that when those games are going on completely unreasonable assumptions are made purely on the basis of gender.

I believe emphatically that it is in everyone's best interests - children and adults - to have good, reliable and regular contact with both parents, regardless of any 'unfinished business' the parents might have, and that the adults should be 'adult' enough to let that happen. Sadly, that's not always possible .

I think when it does break down, for whatever reason, closing doors rather than keeping them open at all costs can, for the kids, be the lesser of two evils, even if they are too young or too emotionally invested to see it for themselves.

Obviously it's hard to say what's going on for Sam at school - whether the fact these incidents seem to occur after visiting dad because he's being interrogated etc or whether it's an emotional reaction to being 'separated' again, or possibly something else entirely, but the simple fact is he shouldn't be being interrogated under any circumstances or subjected to hearing other members of his family/networks being 'run down' because his dad is misrustful of or dislikes them (and, of course, if it works the other way and he hears his dad being run down - which I'm not suggesting is the case at all, just clarifying on general principle). If that is what's happening, then it seems perfectly reasonable to ensure that contact is and remains appropriate to Sam's needs - even if that means pushing for supervised contact or rigidly defined 'terms'. If that breaks down, or becomes problematic for other reasons, then maybe doors do have to be 'closed', either as a short term solution while new 'rules' are thrashed out and agreed or more permanently if that can't happen.

 

As far as the older kids go, 9 and 6 is still very young to be making quite complicated decisions. If they seem to be making them for the 'right' reasons then I guess that takes precedence over dad's wishes, but I'd be careful to confirm that they're not responding to the adult dynamic - to what they think they should be saying - or to the often quite 'selfish' (from our perspective) dynamics that kids operate to - i.e. seeing dad isn't as much 'fun' as seeing their mates.

 

Very best with what is a very tricky and complicated situation

 

L&P

 

BD

[justine1]

I've been cautious about posting, because as a 'dad' I find the whole idea of men being refused access to their children horrifying, and from experience (but not personal, thank god) know that sometimes - I'd even go so far as to say often - children are used in adult games that have far more to do with bitterness and spite than they do the welfare of the kids, and that when those games are going on completely unreasonable assumptions are made purely on the basis of gender.

I believe emphatically that it is in everyone's best interests - children and adults - to have good, reliable and regular contact with both parents, regardless of any 'unfinished business' the parents might have, and that the adults should be 'adult' enough to let that happen. Sadly, that's not always possible .

I think when it does break down, for whatever reason, closing doors rather than keeping them open at all costs can, for the kids, be the lesser of two evils, even if they are too young or too emotionally invested to see it for themselves.

Obviously it's hard to say what's going on for Sam at school - whether the fact these incidents seem to occur after visiting dad because he's being interrogated etc or whether it's an emotional reaction to being 'separated' again, or possibly something else entirely, but the simple fact is he shouldn't be being interrogated under any circumstances or subjected to hearing other members of his family/networks being 'run down' because his dad is misrustful of or dislikes them (and, of course, if it works the other way and he hears his dad being run down - which I'm not suggesting is the case at all, just clarifying on general principle). If that is what's happening, then it seems perfectly reasonable to ensure that contact is and remains appropriate to Sam's needs - even if that means pushing for supervised contact or rigidly defined 'terms'. If that breaks down, or becomes problematic for other reasons, then maybe doors do have to be 'closed', either as a short term solution while new 'rules' are thrashed out and agreed or more permanently if that can't happen.

 

As far as the older kids go, 9 and 6 is still very young to be making quite complicated decisions. If they seem to be making them for the 'right' reasons then I guess that takes precedence over dad's wishes, but I'd be careful to confirm that they're not responding to the adult dynamic - to what they think they should be saying - or to the often quite 'selfish' (from our perspective) dynamics that kids operate to - i.e. seeing dad isn't as much 'fun' as seeing their mates.

 

Very best with what is a very tricky and complicated situation

 

L&P

 

BD

Thank Baddad

I have done more than my fair share to make sure he has access.I am not making myself seem more special in anyway but..... I have gone on two buses(1 1/2 hour journey) with four kids,one of whom was just a newborn every weekend to take them to his house,paid for out of my pocket.And for a year now I have given him petrol money to come and get Dan,this is all cause he makes me feel bad for the fact I moved out of county.

 

When I was in the other house furthur away I let him stay over at the house because the bus service was scarce and didnt operate on Sunday.I let him stay over at the previous Christmas too(thats when he had an argument with my sister in law)

I always phone him,he doesnt have a lhome phone so mobile and its very expensive,to let him know how they are and what they have been doing.I tell him when they are ill.And with Sams diagnosis gave him all the paper and said,even though he doesnt agree with the diagnosis,that he can come to the next appt.So I do try.

 

I agree,I feel they are too young to decide.Although with Josh he is very advanced and because he is older the psycological "abuse"(or whatever you want to call it) has been going on for at least three years before Sam.He constantly says he is stupid,meanwhile he is gifted!!!It is because he is more like my side of the family and I guess he doesnt like that.It is sad cause when Josh was a baby he was very,very close to his daddy and I cry when I see those pictures.

What annoys me is that,when I stand up to him he says he will never come again,he eventually does but it confuses the kids,as I say its happened so much now I just feel enough is enough.

 

I think a visitation centre is probably best.I havent had time to phone the solicitor today because of the exclusion and other things.So will do tomorrow.I am sad its come to this because we have been agreeing on things and getting along quite well for some time now.

[baddad]

Thank Baddad

 

No worries. As you'll know from other posts I've made, i'm not a fan of 'unconditional' anything for anyone! If dad's are messing up then some 'tough love' may be the only thing that brings them to their senses (and that of course goes for kids and mums and dogs and cats and anyone/thing else that might be messing up and unresponsive to any sort of 'reason')... Really hope it can work, but if not and you know you've tried your damnedest then you've got Hobson's choice, really.

 

L&P

 

BD

[justine1]

I did forget to add,it is not everytime that Sam sees his dad that he acts up,it has only been on those occassions when there has been an argument over the whole interrogation,as what happened on Sunday,and when Sam has lied or over exagerrated.I know there is no proof whats happened is because of it,but I am almost 99% certain,I would defo put money on it!!!

 

When we get takeaway Dan always says "The man brang us food" so my ex thinks some random bloke is buying us food I keep explaining things and its wearing me down,why should I have to explain my every move.Two weeks ago I took my other three to church,Dan was at his dads,apparently he was calling the house looking to take them out,I returned his call and he was like "why didnt you tell me you were going to church"

 

Thanks again everyone <'>

[Kathryn]

Tough situation Justine, and I can't advise on the family aspect. But looking at the exclusion, you posted below:

 

Also do you think a permanent exclusion may push things a bit quicker with regards to his statement? The HT mentioned this before but now reluctant as she fears my ex may challenge it.I would go for it if it will help.

 

I'm not sure it would help but that's just my opinion. The statementing process has to run its course, there's not much you can do to speed that up. (Sorry can't remember as I type this what stage you are at?). Also the danger is that once permanently excluded the school has no further responsibility for him, so you may lose the support and backup you're getting now, as there will be no incentive for the head to push for anything. It's also useful to be able to collect ongoing evidence of his difficulties at school. And it would be a shame to take him out just when things are starting to work. Of course the LEA would then take on the responsibility for his education, but they may provide something which is completely inappropriate.

 

K x

 

 

[Kazzen161]

I have given him petrol money to come and get Dan,this is all cause he makes me feel bad for the fact I moved out of county.

I always phone him,he doesnt have a lhome phone so mobile and its very expensive,to let him know how they are and what they have been doing.I tell him when they are ill.And with Sams diagnosis gave him all the paper and said,even though he doesnt agree with the diagnosis,that he can come to the next appt.So I do try.

 

I had similar problems with my ex. Although he left me, we still behaved as we had always done - he threatened me (with not paying money or not picking the kids up, etc) and I would give in. After a few years, I just changed my response - I just said "whatever" and once he realised he no longer had any power over me, he stopped the threats. Time for you to stop feeling guilty.

 

It might be good for you to back off a bit - there is no need for you to call him - he could call the kids if he wants to (we arranged that my ex would call every wed at 6pm), and the kids can answer the phone and there is no need for you to talk to him. If the kids don't want to talk to him, then they can tell him. He could buy them a mobile that he could call them on, on the same network as him, as he is bound to get some free calls/texts. There is no need to make a special effort to tell him what they are doing or when they are ill - just update him when he comes to see them. We also had regular visits arranged - so every 6 months we would sort out the dates, and then that was it. You could ask the school to invite him to any meetings - again it takes the onus away from you.

 

It took my ex many years to accept that my son does have AS - I think he saw it as a reflection on him (not having a perfect child), and it really made no difference to him, as he was not the one getting called in to school several times a week!

 

My boys have now worked out for themselves what their Dad is like.

[justine1]

Tough situation Justine, and I can't advise on the family aspect. But looking at the exclusion, you posted below:

 

 

 

I'm not sure it would help but that's just my opinion. The statementing process has to run its course, there's not much you can do to speed that up. (Sorry can't remember as I type this what stage you are at?). Also the danger is that once permanently excluded the school has no further responsibility for him, so you may lose the support and backup you're getting now, as there will be no incentive for the head to push for anything. It's also useful to be able to collect ongoing evidence of his difficulties at school. And it would be a shame to take him out just when things are starting to work. Of course the LEA would then take on the responsibility for his education, but they may provide something which is completely inappropriate.

 

K x

Thank you Kathryn <'> That is most helpful Spoke to the HT and its just a usual fixed exclusion,he goes back Friday,but she said she warned the ed psych things are getting worse and seems the ed psych is now pushing things.They had started to relax because Sam has been doing so well with his LSA and the extra support the autism teachers were giving.They may now give the school some furthur funding for the autism teachers to come back in.

 

We are about 11 weeks into statementing.I posted my parental view letter and school posted theirs two weeks ago.Ed psych and autism outreach have both come in again but I havent received their reports yet.Things seem to be okay,so as you say I dont want to do anything causing them to back down.

Thank you very much <'> I do feel better.

 

He is'nt happy as he is on punnishment But he is'nt kicking off he is just very quiet!

[justine1]

I had similar problems with my ex. Although he left me, we still behaved as we had always done - he threatened me (with not paying money or not picking the kids up, etc) and I would give in. After a few years, I just changed my response - I just said "whatever" and once he realised he no longer had any power over me, he stopped the threats. Time for you to stop feeling guilty.

 

It might be good for you to back off a bit - there is no need for you to call him - he could call the kids if he wants to (we arranged that my ex would call every wed at 6pm), and the kids can answer the phone and there is no need for you to talk to him. If the kids don't want to talk to him, then they can tell him. He could buy them a mobile that he could call them on, on the same network as him, as he is bound to get some free calls/texts. There is no need to make a special effort to tell him what they are doing or when they are ill - just update him when he comes to see them. We also had regular visits arranged - so every 6 months we would sort out the dates, and then that was it. You could ask the school to invite him to any meetings - again it takes the onus away from you.

 

It took my ex many years to accept that my son does have AS - I think he saw it as a reflection on him (not having a perfect child), and it really made no difference to him, as he was not the one getting called in to school several times a week!

 

My boys have now worked out for themselves what their Dad is like.

Thank you so very much <'> My eldest is very aware of what his dad is like,I suppose that is why he doesnt want to see him.I dont say negative things about him,however because he gives me no financial support I do occasionaly send them to ask him for shoes or whatever they need.I lent him £260 two weeks ago and I havent heard from him since sunday so just texted him asking for him to give it back by July for my eldests childrens University,its far so we need to probably stay there.He knew about it and didnt offer a penny towards it,just boasting "he is my son thats why he is chosen to go to the childrens University and thats why he is clever" meanwhile he always says he is stupid!!!

 

We went through a stage of the phone being passed directly to the kids but then he starts talking to me about something and worms his way back in,so to speak.

 

I really appreciate the advice,I wish I was a much stronger person,I just give in to him cause I feel if I dont I am doing wrong by my kids,I dont do it for him its them,but now I just feel like a mug

 

I feel much better for coming on here,thank you all for listening <'>

[Kazzen161]

I lent him £260 two weeks ago and I havent heard from him since sunday so just texted him asking for him to give it back by July

 

We went through a stage of the phone being passed directly to the kids but then he starts talking to me about something and worms his way back in,so to speak.

 

I really appreciate the advice,I wish I was a much stronger person,I just give in to him cause I feel if I dont I am doing wrong by my kids,I dont do it for him its them,but now I just feel like a mug

 

I feel much better for coming on here,thank you all for listening <'>

 

It is not easy to work out how to be divorced from someone (I always joke that if I am thinking about marrying again, I will check if he is also someone I wouldn't mind being divorced from!). You can't be responsible for his relationship with the children - it is up to him - they will soon work out how interested he is in them (my ex no longer calls them mid-week and has just gone on holiday without them and not seen or called them for three weeks, even though they are doing their AS level exams).

 

You also need to show the children that it is not acceptable to treat women badly. A lot of his behaviour suggests he is not willing to let you go/move on - you need to make this clear, and distance yourself from him emotionally.

 

As to lending him money when he gives nothing towards the children - I find that hard to understand (and it now means you have to keep calling him to ask for it back).

 

I know it is not easy, and we all go through a period of working out a new relationship with our exes. It took me several years to get to where I had the strength and resolve to change my behaviour around him. They always say you can't change someone else's behaviour towards you, without changing your own.

 

I am still looking forward to the day when I don't have to have anything to do with my ex anymore.