Kids who won't sleep... TV prog.

[baddad]

Watched this thing tonight where they put two different 'sleep therapists' (or whatever they called themselves) using very different techniques in a 'head to head' competition to see whose techniques worked best. One was a no-nonsense supernanny type who took the kids bottles/dummies etc away from them and left them to get on with it while the other took a much softer approach with special lights and music and a parent camping on the floor in the room etc...

I wasn't at all surprised by the result (no nonsense nanny got immediate and pretty much consistant results while softly softly took days to achieve anything at all), but what really struck me was that the kid being 'helped' by the softly softly nanny quite evidently suffered much MUCH more distress than the other kids, and so did his parents. And this over a hugely extended (by contrast) period of at least two weeks. Even worse, in the second week, the 'soft' approach actually became at least as intense as the no nonsense approach - with the soft sleep therapist offering exactly the same advice (ignore all 'tired crying' and only respond to cries of distress) as 'NNN'! And she posted a parent in the room who had to patently ignore the child's screaming - much to the distress and confusion of child and parent.

 

In the end, though NNN was much quicker in getting results and much more consistant, both systems achieved the desired results, so I guess that's the main thing, but what was highlighted in both cases was that it was the lack of routine and consistancy on the part of both sets of parents that created the problems in the first place. The kid's bless 'em, once they knew what was expected and that there was no negotiation, all took to their beddy-byses like ducks to water - and much healthier and happier they looked too with a good nights kip behind them. As too did the mums and dads.

 

Interesting show - well worth watching on catch up if you have bedtime battles.

 

L&P

 

BD

[call me jaded]

Did we watch the same programme?

 

The 'competition' was over the first five nights to see who had the longest period of unbroken sleep. It was 50/50 over the first four nights - two on each side and was only 'won' on the fifth.

 

Never had much in the way of bedtime battles with my other three, but my ASD son would not, could not, still does not stay asleep and would only settle with my arm draped over him (wish I'd found a weighted blanket) until I switched to GFCF. He can now stay in his room (I hear him shuffling about) until daylight, that's 4.30am some days. He doesn't nap during the day.

 

Sleep disturbance is a well-documented phenomenon in autism, it does exist and is a significantly greater problem than for typically developing children - browse PubMed for stacks of research. I'm sure behavioural techniques can make a difference but they're not going to resolve all difficulties.

 

As a parent I found I can function quite well if I get a period of five hours uninterupted sleep. Less than that and my hair falls out and I have major word retrieval problems.

 

 

[justine1]

I watched it and actually I think it should be a bit of both.I cannot let my child cry the whole night hysterically without at least stroking their head,not picking them up though.I did agree with the no dummys,no drinks,that is bad on so many levels

 

Sam had this problem when he moved into his own bed at around age 2.It was 2 weeks of hard graft, mostly on my part,I was up and down like a yo-yo putting him back to bed and he screamed so much the neighbours asked ,on the third day, if he was alright.My ex was so tired he wanted to give and felt for him crying most of the night.The thing is all though it was so hard Sam hasnt had any problems falling asleep since then,2 weeks out of his life I doubt its a traumatic experience

I also made sure he knew I was there so I was going in the room and comforting him,but leaving him in the bed.

 

Eli has just started sleeping through properly,also age 2, with him its been a bigger battle as he was still breastfeeding in the night.I had to leave him to cry again.It was so hard as he was even banging his head on his bed.But 3 weeks on I am getting a great nights sleep and he seems happier too

 

 

[call me jaded]

Very humble apologies Baddad I have deleted your post in error - must have pressed edit instead of reply.

[JsMum]

I watched this programme and loved the contrasting two, and I agree the Softie Nanny was eventually resorting to the same techneques as the Toughtie Nanny, and agree that both eventually got results but the Softie Nannies results did need as MASSIVE amount of time invested in the child, in the fact that the Mother was left totally redunant of the task because it was making her son Anxious because she was projecting all her anxietie on him, so she was sent to her bedroom for the entire night, where she actually couldnt deal with that and sectioned herself to the Bathroom, then DAD was with Indie for the time it took to get Indie to sleep, he eventually submitted to makeshift bed on the floor next to Indie.

 

Now for me that didnt seem fair on Indie, Dad and Mum, and I dont think it was a softy, easyier task than the Twins with the Toughtie Nannys techneques.

 

Watching it it did come across that the Softie tecs where defo harder than the Toughtie tecs, the Twins bless them didnt you just love their little tactics all over the place in their bedroom now they where in there cute little toddler beds, it was the little boy Tom who had the most difficulties sleeping, didnt they evetually seperate them in the end IE had their own bedroom?

 

I think what was amazing in the programme is how disruptive Sleep deprivation is, Indie's parents where ready to seperate and mum was soo exhausted she wasnt sure she loved Indie anymore even though deep down she did love him to bits but she was just soooo tired.

 

What was evident was that once a sleep pattern was in place of 10hours or more the whole family beneifited and Tom looked just sooo much happier, in the beginning he was just wailing and crying day and night, but once the professionals where in Tom was like a new little boy, and boy wasnt Tom and his Sister just soooo cute and the difference in Toms Mum was amazing too, she just looked so much more relaxed, even though her husband had just been made redundant they still went with the sleep plan which probably saved them in the end.

 

I know that Sleep Deprivation is very serious, and there is not enough sleep support out there, but watching the results of the sleep programme in place the differences where just truely massive.

 

I think I would go with something in between, so Toftie.

 

Next week its about unemployed and getting them back into work, its going to be a good series I think.

 

JsMumx

 

 

Edited August 4, 2010 by JsMum

[baddad]

Okay...

 

well not gonna type all that again, but a quick recap:

 

yes, must have been watching different progs as the prog I watched included a three week 'lead up' for both therapists to work with the family before the actual 'test week', definitely showed a two week period where the child being helped 'softly softly' was majorly distressed almost every night (along with his parents, who made a frantic call to the therapist in the wee hours during the second week) and a conclusion that was looking for '11 hrs sleep per night' rather than 'longest sleep'. On a 'sleep per night' basis the results for strict nanny were even more impressive... and 'soft nanny' did actually instigate pretty much the same routine as 'strict nanny' on week 2 when it was obvious that soft wasn't working - the only difference being with lights on and a parent camped on the bedroom floor which caused the kid even more distress because the parents were told not to acknowledge him when he got out of bed. Strict nanny got the parents and kids a full nights sleep on the very first night, and the only major slip in the test week was when they slept in a hotel away from home.

 

I agree with justine about 'somewhere in the middle' but think it also depends on the age/awareness of the child - having done it twice (long story) using both methods i can say that 'softly' can work where it's JUST a 'toddler' poor sleeping/Hyperactivity thing, but strict has to come into play when they're a bit older, more self aware, more controlling and determined. 'Strict' is definitely harder for parents emotionally, but not, with hindsight (and from the evidence of this prog) for the kids.

 

I think there are inherent problems with research because often it is based on anecdotal evidence/parents testimony. Sadly, that's not often reliable, as was clearly demonstrated in this programme when all of the parents involved (including those that weren't selected for the actual tests) swore they had 'tried everything'... patently they hadn't tried, or if they had hadn't successfully implemented, the routines offered by either nanny, which basically both centred on continuity, consistency and concrete boundaries, despite the 'fluff' (nightlights, soft music, extra drinks and the introduction of dummies etc - all of which 'strict nanny' got rid of on day one) the soft nanny introduced to make it look like a different approach.

 

Pity that first post got deleted - i think i said it better in that one cos i wasn't so rushed! long and short is i think both approaches have their merits, but ultimately both depend on M&D getting their act together and sticking to it. The kids were all able to shine as soon as that happened!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

J's mum - just seen your post and lovely to find we're agreeing about something! And yes, the twins climbing all over their new beds were absolutely Garjuss! Indi was too - but only half as garjuss cos there was just the one of him I'm pretty sure they didn't separate the twins, but that was certainly one area where the 'soft nanny's' game plan backfired! She was banking on the 'bad' sleeper continually waking the good sleeper, but didn't anticipate the bad sleeper turning into a good sleeper overnight! And yes, I said it in the deleted post too, everybody involved - kids and parents alike - benefited massively from the establishment of these routines. I know from my own 'wilderness years' of three/four hrs per night that feeling tired to the point of nausea aint no good for nuffink nor no one...

 

Edited August 4, 2010 by baddad

[call me jaded]

That's very gracious Okay from you Baddad. Much appreciated.

[baddad]

That's very gracious Okay from you Baddad. Much appreciated.

 

No worries! I'm a very gracious sort of bloke!

[Enid]

watched it too. and much preferred the "tough" version, kinder and quicker all around, the softly softly, "get in the cot with them" nanny was actually using the same methods but taking longer about it, and that scene where the poor dad had to sit and watch his son in distress and wasnt allowed to cuddle him was really tough, on both dad, child and mum, think the dad did amazingly well. shall look forward to next weeks

[call me jaded]

I remember a blissful period just after we moved house and DS was too small to reach the door handle. Then he grew and learned that he could remove his nappy, and started throwing it and the contents of his bedroom down the stairs.

 

We got to the sleep clinic and they went through everything we'd tried. The options we were given were drug him or lock the door. That was with a PDD diagnosis at that point. We weren't far from breaking down so maybe that influenced their advice.

 

Thankfully we tried GFCF as the last resort and the effects on his sleep were quite remarkable - the night sweats stopped overnight too. So for us it seems to be metabolic in some way. I do lots of DLA forms for families - maintaining sleep is often a problem at the severe end of the spectrum.

 

The other three were relatively easy and it involved judging when the time was right and then doing it. Dim and distant memory now my youngest is nearly seven. BTW I used to work for a multinational reporting to a Danish head office and they were so relaxed about children in the parental bed. They took it as read that it would naturally cease by age seven.

Edited August 4, 2010 by call me jaded

[baranigirl]

Watched it too and I am also on the toftie side, would have done pretty much everything the tough one did except removed the dummy immediately, but with hindsight doing it all in one go is less traumatic than taking bit by bit away

 

DD3 gave her dummies to the fairies xmas 2008 when she was coming up 3, but she was ready to do that (DD1 and DD2 were both thumb suckers sop dummies were new to me!) Santa brought her a new laptop she asked for to replace the dummies and she never complained once

 

DS still has his dummies at night, but they live in his cot and tbh he rarely sucks them, but he likes to hold them along with his 3 owls, which is fine with me. He will be going into a bed soon which brings back dreadful times with DD3 and getting her to stay in a bed, she is still shuffling about at 4-5am daily, but will pretty much stay in her room now until around 6-6.30 which is when she goes and prepares the first of her 3 or 4 breakfasts of the day

 

Mine have never had bottles in bed, in fact I removed bottles completely from all my kids by the age of 8-9 months and they all used beakers or breast only, even DS who is still on formula milk from the GP and it has to be measured out accurately

 

Sleep deprivation is one of the worst experiences I have ever had as it appears to be never ending and I can see why those famileis were at breaking point