Dyscalculia?

[Frizz]

Hi.

My DD has a diagnosis of Asperger's,she is 10.As time goes by I am wondering more & more if she could also have Discalcular.

She finds maths a real struggle, for example; 2 years ago we had a marathon run at the times tables because school expressed concerns that she didnt know them.We are now in the situation we were then-pretty hopeless!In addition to the maths,she cannot tell the time nor her left from right.

Her statements annual review is tomorrow & I am considering mentioning it then.Does anyone else have experience of AS & Discalcular going hand in hand?

I've kind of left it a bit late & intended to post last night but got tied up in reading up on other things!

 

Thankyou in anticipation.

[NickyB]

Hello Frizz

 

 

I don't have any experience of dyscalcula myself, but I have come across THIS ARTICLE which might be of interest.

 

 

Nicky x

[Grace]

Hi Frizz,

 

Couple of sites if you put in dyscalculia and asperger's in google. Here is what one said:

Asperger Syndrome and Dyscalculia

Dyscalculia combined with Asperger Syndrome can cause huge difficulty in learning or comprehending mathematics. It means those who have it experience a fundamental inability to conceptualize numbers as abstract concepts of comparative quantities. For those diagnosed with Asperger anything abstract can be hard for them to understand due to their impairment in imagination. If you cannot imagine what something represents it is so much harder to understand the symbol or the representation.

Dyscalculia occurs in people across the whole IQ range, and those who suffer from it often, but not always, also have difficulties with telling time, measurement, spatial reasoning and have a poor sense of direction.

 

Children with Asperger and dyscalculia can experience problems with:

 

Conceptualizing time and judging the passing of time,

 

Telling the difference between left and right.

 

mentally estimating the measurement of an object or distance

 

Inability to grasp and remember mathematical concepts, rules, and sequences

 

Telling which of two numbers is the larger

 

Relying on 'counting-on' strategies

 

Everyday tasks like checking change

 

Reading analog clocks

 

Keeping score during games

 

The problem of dyscalculia does not reflect any emotional issues but causes difficulties in mentally connecting with thought processes. Children with dyscalculia and Asperger often need extensive mental strain to solve simple arithmetic tasks. One of their strategies is using their fingers when counting as a visual aid. They can keep on doing this even when they are into the upper grades. They experience severe difficulties in categorizing and have automatisation difficulties.

 

How to help

Planning your homework or activities within school is a major problem for those with Asperger and dyscalculia. Most of the time the children do not estimate correctly how much time they need to complete a task or how much time there is left to complete is. Most of them also have problems imagining in what order the tasks should be done. This is also known as an inability to prioritize the tasks. Give these children a clear structure in everyday life and provide them with help such as:

 

Using pictures or pictograms for math concepts

Getting them help from their classmates or peers

 

Allow them to use their fingers or scratch paper

 

In order to see different problems use colored pencils

 

Make sure they are allowed to draw pictures

 

Use music or a beat to teach them math facts

 

Work with real stuff such as beats for counting, dividing or multiplying

 

Give them more time to work on mathematical problems

 

Never put them down

 

 

 

And remember: they are not dumb but unable to connect mentally with specific types of thought processes. Dyscalculia can be detected by taking a good look at intelligence test. There is often an uneven picture in their results.

 

Good luck for tomorrow/x

Edited October 20, 2010 by Grace

[Frizz]

Hi.

Thanks to you both. Grace, your article gave an almost spot on list of my DD's difficulties-definetly worth a mention tomorrow I think!

[Kathryn]

Yes my daughter (diagnosed AS at 15) has always struggled with maths and considers herself to be dyscalculic, although that label has never been officially applied to her - it's perhaps not as well recognised as it should be.

 

Actually she can understand many maths concepts quite well; what she seems to struggle with is the alignment of numbers in columns and rows and she will also read numbers wrongly. It seems to be partly a spatial issue for her. Interestingly, she has never had problems with letters and words - in fact her reading was well above average from an early age. Her difficulties are magnified if she is stressed, so that she always under performed in tests. Sometimes she would know an answer but not how she got to it so she was penalised for not "showing her working".

 

She always found maths a strain but made reasonable progress with those teachers who were patient, gave her loads of encouragement, understood her difficulties and were able to adapt to her quirky way of learning.

 

K x

[Sally44]

My son has a diagnosis of an ASD and a specific learning difficulty (dyslexia). Although it is also recognised that he also has difficulties with numeracy, this has not been named as dyscalculia, although we have it in the family.

 

My son fits many of the difficulties listed in Graces post, but not all of them.

 

He has very good mental spatial awareness for building models and designing things. But he has poor body spatial awareness and is clumsy, poor at any physical tasks, low muscle tone and poor core stability.

 

He can work out mathematical sums, but has to use his fingers. He also cannot count on, and always has to start from zero.

 

He has no concept of time and struggles to communicate things involving time issues.

 

He has problems with sequencing.

 

What you need to consider is those actual difficulties regarding numeracy. And also if those difficulties spill over into problems with language, planning, organisation, sequencing in general.

 

What a child with these type of difficulties may need is real experiences of real things (not concepts in the mind). So numeracy should work with real objects and not just numbers.

 

You may also find that the child does not have a good working memory and cannot hold concepts in their mind and work them out mentally, especially if it involves sequencing steps in the process. So they should not be expected to achieve any kind of mental arithmatics. They should be encouraged to always do working out on paper. They may need access to number lines and a 100 number square card. They may need a visual worksheet that reminds them of the process they need to perform in numeracy.

 

[something I am thinking about for my son is whether to try to teach him how to use a chinese abacus. I might have a go at this some time in the future. The reason I think it might help is because it works in smaller units and the abacus becomes a way of recording the mental process as you go through the sum. And once you know what number the beds represent, you can read and write down any number.]

 

If you are looking for a diagnosis, it will be the EP that can diagnose. So your LEA will have an EP that can assess and diagnose for this. You would then want it itemised in section 2 and provision on how this need will be met in school quantifying and specifying in section 3 in terms of staffing provision and hours of input and hours of Specialist Teaching by the Specialist Teacher for Learning Difficulties (your LEA should have one).

 

If the above is refused or you feel fobbed off. Then read through the Code of Practice. It does detail that an appropriate way to meet a need is "specialist teaching". Also google the Jim Rose report. This report to the government was about dyslexia, but dyslexia and dyscalculia are both "specific learning difficulties".

 

Jim Rose said that LEAs should diagnose these difficulties and the severity of them. It also said that where parents have received independent diagnosis that there should be "sound reasons" for an LEA to disregard them.

 

A child with SPLD should still be making progress. There is also the question of remediation and whether extra support and resources are being used to help them catch up on lost ground.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Sally44

[Sally44]

Also remember that the Annual Review process has also been changed, so that parents can now appeal if the LEA does not make changes to the Statement. This means that if this additional difficulty is not itemised in section 2 and provision quantified and specified in section 3 that you can appeal.

But I would advise you to get advice from that via the NAS or IPSEA.

[Frizz]

Wow! I wondered if I was reading too much into her lack of ability with numeracy,but having read all your replies I actually think I am onto something!

Interestingly,at the annual review the class teacher,senco,headteacher all nodded in agreement when I raised the possibility!!!

I wrote down a list of all our academic concerns that are not on her current statement & issued everyone present with a copy.The sen representative from the council asked if I would like them to be included on her new statement.

Only time will tell,but it will be interesting if they are all noted-is it really that easy for a parent to add to a statement?

The EP was present too,so I will chase up my request for a formal assesment of dyscalcular.

 

Thankyou all so very much for your help & advice. x

[Sally44]

Remember that it is not just what is detailed in section 2, but what they quantify and specify in section 3 to meet those needs.

[smiley1590]

i have dyspraxia and this very similiar to dysculia ....i have both A.S and dyspraxia dyspraxia was first officially diagnosed! has this been looked into?

 

XKLX

[coolblue]

Just wanted to point out that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and all the other 'dys'-es are shorthand descriptive terms for difficulties with reading, arithmetic, actions etc, not 'conditions' in themselves. There might be some underlying physical abnormality causing them, but the idea that they are distinct conditions and not on a spectrum of difficulty with particular types of task with the rest of the population has led to enormous confusion in research. It has also led to mainstream teachers, especially, rolling their eyes and wondering how they are supposed to teach a child with a string of conditions they've never encountered before.

 

My son is dyslexic, dyscalculic and dyspraxic. He has poor control of his eye movements which means his visuo-spatial ability hasn't developed normally. The eye movement problems alone account for most of his developmental problems. Most of the rest are accounted for by his poor auditory processing.

 

Once we had found out what the visual problems were, we could then take them into account when doing arithmetic. He has poor tracking in his right visual field, so we started setting out maths problems vertically, instead of horizontally. We used number ladders instead of number lines. He reverses, inverts and transposes numerals, so we colour-coded columns of numbers and used large print to help him keep track of place value. We used lots of concrete objects to help him with the concepts, even if he struggled with the numbers.

 

I'm not suggesting that eye movement problems are the cause of all dyscalculia, but they are the biggest problem with arithmetic in my son's case.

 

cb

[Sally44]

Just wanted to point out that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and all the other 'dys'-es are shorthand descriptive terms for difficulties with reading, arithmetic, actions etc, not 'conditions' in themselves. There might be some underlying physical abnormality causing them, but the idea that they are distinct conditions and not on a spectrum of difficulty with particular types of task with the rest of the population has led to enormous confusion in research. It has also led to mainstream teachers, especially, rolling their eyes and wondering how they are supposed to teach a child with a string of conditions they've never encountered before.

 

My son is dyslexic, dyscalculic and dyspraxic. He has poor control of his eye movements which means his visuo-spatial ability hasn't developed normally. The eye movement problems alone account for most of his developmental problems. Most of the rest are accounted for by his poor auditory processing.

 

Once we had found out what the visual problems were, we could then take them into account when doing arithmetic. He has poor tracking in his right visual field, so we started setting out maths problems vertically, instead of horizontally. We used number ladders instead of number lines. He reverses, inverts and transposes numerals, so we colour-coded columns of numbers and used large print to help him keep track of place value. We used lots of concrete objects to help him with the concepts, even if he struggled with the numbers.

 

I'm not suggesting that eye movement problems are the cause of all dyscalculia, but they are the biggest problem with arithmetic in my son's case.

 

cb

 

 

I totally agree with what you are saying about all the conditions being related. But in my experience although the professional will usually say that too - the root cause of the difficulty is never looked into or identified (as you managed to find our yourself with your son's difficulties). Mainstream schools have very little idea about any of these conditions. And as my EP said "no further provision will be provided unless it is quantified in a report" - and her report does not contain anything!

 

It is very interesting what you have found about your own son and have you have adapted learning systems so that he is more able to demonstrate his learning.

 

Can I ask you how you managed to find out his specific visual difficulties?

[coolblue]

 

 

Can I ask you how you managed to find out his specific visual difficulties?

 

 

He'd had two standard sight tests that had identified slight astigmatism - he didn't even have to wear glasses after his second test. But he kept reversing and transposing letters and numbers and clearly had problems tracking lines of text. His eyes also wobbled when he looked up from eating or reading. So we took him for another sight test and the optometrist couldn't complete her tests because his eyes were streaming so much after she shone her torch in them. He wasn't crying - he just couldn't see. She was quite unpleasant about it, so we decided to leave the test there and she said she'd recall him. I mentioned this incident on an internet forum and several parents recommended seeing Ian Jordan, which we did. He identified the eye movement issues but ds was so exhausted by the end of the tests we couldn't get the precise colour of tinted lenses. It was difficult for us to get back to Ian's practice so we tried nearer home.

 

We've since been referred to a hospital orthopist who was awful, via the GP - but that's another story. We've also seen another optometrist Ian recommended. She couldn't complete her tests either, because ds was so stressed out by the journey. So he has ordinary specs for his myopia, from a local optometrist (not the nasty one) but we have never managed to get the eye movement issue treated.

 

Since he also has balance problems, we're currently looking into a referral to a balance clinic, because balance can affect eye movements.

 

cb

[Sally44]

I've also been to see Ian Jordan.

My son also has tracking problems and like your son, when he looks from one thing to another his eyes appear to 'jump'.

We've been to our local optician, and she noticed that when testing his tracking, he had a very delayed response when she changed the direction she was moving the pen in. And she also noticed the 'jumping' that his eyes do. But she said there is nothing you can do about it anyway. I suppose I should email Ian Jordan about that to be sure.

[coolblue]

It suggests that your son does have a visual impairment, though, Sally - relating to the question in your other thread...

 

cb