sanctions imposed at home for school related behaviour

[mygifts1306]

Dear All

I feel that i have made the wrong descision, my son came on tuesday and he had been taken out of the group that he was working on(told by another child), my son is 8 and was diagnosed with as at the age of 5. I had made an appointment to see his teacher on the wednesday any way, his teacher told me that his behaviour was really challenging, he was playing with other children's hair, and was using toilet humour and name calling, he disobeyed the probationter teacher. My son has had support until december, his support was then taken away because of cuts and we were told there were other children who needed it more than he did. THe teacher then put my son in his own and he continued to kick the boxes next to him. becuause i found this out, i decided to punish my son~( by taking his ds away for two days), i am in dilemma as i feel that i have overeacted, the school needs to deal with the problems at school. I feel maybe i am interefing, but my experience with the school is if you dont say anything your child is forgotten. i just wondered what other parents thought.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I don't think there's a straightforward answer. I personally feel that what goes on at school, should be dealt with by the school and not transfer home. I know that home is the only place where R truly feels safe and at east and feel if issues are taken home, that could change that. Whilst I certainly wouldn't reward kiddo, I wouldn't punish him either. My son is extremely challenging and lots happen at school. He's 9 and is now able to discuss things (though it very much depends upon his mood!). I always try to chat with him, starting off by saying 'it seems you've had a tough day - let's have a chat about it". It then gives him the chance to get it off his chest and generally prevents it being a massive issue at home. It also gives me a chance to say "actually that wasn't okay - maybe next time you could ...". I think it's important to work with the school. R's HT agreed at my request for R to have 'Reflections Time'. This is where he gets the chance to say how he's feeling, what he's found difficult, etc etc. His LA is usually able to reason with him to some degree in a constructive way.

 

Parenting an kid on the spectrum is never easy and it's a massive learning curve!

 

Best wishes.

 

Caroline.

[baddad]

Not everyone will agree, but I think certain kinds of behaviour should be sanctioned by parents whether they occur at home or in school.

 

Depending on the nature of the hair playing, name calling and toilet humour I'd say it was perfectly acceptable to sanction at home. All your really doing is reinforcing the fact that he should obey school rules, and it's very important that he understand that you will, otherwise he'll see school as a free pass. The reality is that school don't have the same sanctions available to them, and he may well see the sanctions they can impose as rewards. Time Out for example can be a great reward for a kid bored in class, as can a loss of playground time to a kid who prefers lego to football. Many kids even see exclusions as rewards, because the time they spend at home, rather than being 'punishment' just become days off playing the X-Box or whatever.

 

If the school do have sanctions that have the same 'punishment value' for your son as lost DS time support the school in those sanctions (after school detentions and extra work are good ones). If the school don't have or can't create sanctions that have a real meaning for him in school, then continue to sanction at home. The behaviours he's enacting are not acceptable / appropriate in wider society (or, depending on the nature as discussed above, possibly at home) and the last message you want him to get is that it's okay if he's in an environment where (in his eyes) he can 'get away with it'.

 

I think another important thing is to clearly define for him both the 'crime' and the 'punishment'. The examples you've given are difficult to make concrete 'hair touching', for example could mean anything from stroking to pulling, and a blanket rule 'no touching people's hair' leaves the rest of their bodies wide open! The same applies to toilet humour and name calling; the latter could be anything from calling another child a 'twit' to systematic verbal abuse. It's hard, I know, but you really need to identify some groundrules that work for all (or at least most) situations and clearly define what will happen if he does cross the line.

 

My own son wasn't aggressive but would push people aside or throw things if he got frustrated. I had to make a rule of 'no hitting' and then widen that to include pushing and throwing things, because these effectively could have the same consequences as hitting if a push resulted in a child falling or something thrown hit another child. His star chart at home had 'No hitting in school' as one of the THREE targets he had for each day; the other two being highly achievable targets that he got pretty much every day (so he could see his 'reward tokens' growing) with 'no hitting in school' as the real target, iyswim.

 

Hope that's helpful and reassuring that you haven't done the 'wrong' thing. the wrong thing would be to let him feel that there were lowered behavioural expectations in school rather than the reality of higher expectations.

 

L&P

 

BD

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I guess following on from my previous post and from Baddad's, I think it's important to reinforce and sanction rules - what's acceptable and what's on irrespective of location.

[mygifts1306]

Thanks a lot Caroline, and Baddad, I now see what you mean, i put in the homework diary as well that we found this a bit difficult as his behaviour at home was much better,(perhaps it meant that he was sorry about his behaviour at school), I am mad because the school did not put anything in the diary about his behaviour being challenging, it just so happened i turned up at school.she did not describe the hair pulling fully, the toilet humour thing she did not elaborate, but i have an vague idea as i have heard him call someone "poopu head". My wee boy really is not street wise at all, he is gullible really, and kids are cruel we all know that. thanks very much for your comments, i am all over the place just now, i feel that i am loosing him,i care about him deeply and just want to keep him in the straight and narrow without going on and on. I dont know how i can encourage my child to take school seriously(just a bit), just have that industrious approach to learning.

 

Thank you very much for keeping this forum going, especially you baddad,

 

kind regards

jax

[baddad]

Thanks a lot Caroline, and Baddad, I now see what you mean, i put in the homework diary as well that we found this a bit difficult as his behaviour at home was much better,(perhaps it meant that he was sorry about his behaviour at school), I am mad because the school did not put anything in the diary about his behaviour being challenging, it just so happened i turned up at school.she did not describe the hair pulling fully, the toilet humour thing she did not elaborate, but i have an vague idea as i have heard him call someone "poopu head". My wee boy really is not street wise at all, he is gullible really, and kids are cruel we all know that. thanks very much for your comments, i am all over the place just now, i feel that i am loosing him,i care about him deeply and just want to keep him in the straight and narrow without going on and on. I dont know how i can encourage my child to take school seriously(just a bit), just have that industrious approach to learning.

 

Thank you very much for keeping this forum going, especially you baddad,

 

kind regards

jax

 

 

Just wanted to say with regard to the 'losing him' thing. Your littlun isn't doing anything my littlun hasn't done in the past, and I went through exactly the same kinds of fears. I can't reassure you about the fears, because as they get older you just get new ones instead (I think they're just something we have to learn to live with as parents, however unfair that seems ), but I can say that the 'losing' him is probably a waste of a good worry. My son's a fantastic, considerate, polite, caring, lovely kid. You have to walk a long way on the estate on which we live to come close to any kid of his age that shares those qualities. He's still very capable of getting it 'wrong', is very socially niave and vulnerable, and sometimes (often) needs a bit of a prompt to see the other persons POV 'cos it's not instinctive for him, but in all the ways that matter he's one of the most 'found' and grounded kids I know.

 

In some ways I am 'losing' him now because he's a teenager and our relationship is changing, but it's the perfectly normal/natural changes a child/parent go through, and while that makes me a bit mawkish sometimes I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

L&P

 

BD (and Thank you)

Edited March 17, 2011 by baddad

[mygifts1306]

Thanks very much for your comment, your are right that is a waste of a worry, I will try not to focus on that part, i dont know maybe i have an unrealistic view of parenting, i just want to be at peace and things to be resolved smoothly, i am only human and sometimes i raise my voice instead of counting to 10 and calming down, i know yelling does not work and yet i do it sometimes. I think i need to work on myself and my very high expectations.

 

kind regards

 

j

[baddad]

I think that's the hardest thing about parenting... sometimes you have to shout. But as long as it's not too often that's a good thing too. Not being able to be their 'best friend' can be hard, but they don't need best friends, they need parents. Sometimes giving them what they need is the polar opposite to giving them what they want, but later they'll thank you for it. I always thought I'd be the perfect parent because I've always loved kids and they've always loved me. It hurt to be faced with the reality that I couldn't always be perfect, and that sometimes he would resent me, but I console myself with the fact that mostly I seem to be getting it about right. If you never lose it with your kids and they never lose it with you you're either a saint or getting it massively wrong somewhere along the line...

 

L&P& 3 glasses in

 

BD

[mygifts1306]

Thanks Baddad for your reply on this,

kind regards

 

jaz

[Sally44]

I just wanted to comment on the fact that they have taken away his support "because of cuts".

The only reason any support should be removed is when a professional has observed/assessed and says in writing that that support is no longer needed. That should happen at the Annual Review.

If that did not happen, then the school have acted illegally.

If the provision is specified in a Statement and he no longer has it provided that is a case of non-compliance and could be a case for judicial review.

My own son had almost all the supports (in terms of staffing levels and approaches) removed from his Statement over a year ago and he went downhill very fast and is now not in school.

[GaryS]

I'm sure you are right there Sally, once provision is made then it cannot be taken away simply on budgetary grounds. This, I feel, is the problem with the way the system is moving. Not only are statements like "Autistic Traits" and "Autistic Tendencies" being used to substitute an actual diagnosis but recent moves in government policy is allowing for legal opportunities to exclude children from mainstream school (Educational White Paper) and providing a policy for reducing the actual numbers of SEN children (under the new SEN Green Paper). At a time where all NHS, LA and LEA budgets are being squeezed, the system seems to be introducing mechanisms where ASC children, particularly high functioning ASC children can simply be ignored; taking away what has previously been put in place (or at least providing an opportunity to do so).

 

BTW I say "system" here because it very probably has nothing to do with party politics. Although there are some sweeping changes made under the change in government, it is the administration machinery which implements and controls all of this. Under pressure, politicians have requested reports and made laws (e.g. Lamb Enquiry and Autism Act); since their publication, have these works actually changed our lives equally across the entire country? Or has it been left to local champions to fight for the help for us and our kids.

[baddad]

I'm sure you are right there Sally, once provision is made then it cannot be taken away simply on budgetary grounds. This, I feel, is the problem with the way the system is moving. Not only are statements like "Autistic Traits" and "Autistic Tendencies" being used to substitute an actual diagnosis but recent moves in government policy is allowing for legal opportunities to exclude children from mainstream school (Educational White Paper) and providing a policy for reducing the actual numbers of SEN children (under the new SEN Green Paper). At a time where all NHS, LA and LEA budgets are being squeezed, the system seems to be introducing mechanisms where ASC children, particularly high functioning ASC children can simply be ignored; taking away what has previously been put in place (or at least providing an opportunity to do so).

 

BTW I say "system" here because it very probably has nothing to do with party politics. Although there are some sweeping changes made under the change in government, it is the administration machinery which implements and controls all of this. Under pressure, politicians have requested reports and made laws (e.g. Lamb Enquiry and Autism Act); since their publication, have these works actually changed our lives equally across the entire country? Or has it been left to local champions to fight for the help for us and our kids.

 

Hi gary -

 

a little bit off topic, so i hope the OP will forgive us (I think the points you raise may well be worth a thread of their own, if you feel that way inclined as they're very interesting issues)...

 

I do agree with 'squeezes' being put in place regarding SEN definitions/provision etc, but think, overall, it's a bit more complex than you're suggesting. Woolly diagnosis like 'traits of autism' etc are counterproductive and unhelpful, but the reality is that definitions of autism - and many other 'disorders' like ADD ADHD PDA Dyspraxia Dyslexia etc have got wider and wider in their application to the point that pretty much any child in any school with any 'difficulty' whatsoever could find any one (or any number) of those conditions tacked to the bottom of their paperwork. And if the local CAMHS, or ed Psych, or whatever happen to disagree with the parent's view about why their child might be having difficulties then there are other ways and means - and it's often these other ways and means that actually provide the 'woolly' dx's you mention.

 

The reality is that, regardless of what the law might suggest, we are not all 'born equal'. Different people have different abilities, and this used to be an acceptable facet of education, whereas now any child whose better at, say, woodwork than maths will be identified as having a learning disability or disorder of some sort and their lack of progress in any given area identified as a 'failure of the sysyem'. The same applies to those children who might be disruptive in class, or regular absentees, or violent/aggressive, and woe betide anyone who suggests that any of these things might have explanations that go beyond the confines of the school classroom or playground. I can't remember where I saw it (may have been somewhere on this forum), but there have been news articles highlighting how some Chelsea Mom's etc actually pursue diagnosis of (i.e.) Aspergers ('they're more intelligent you know') because that label has far more positives in accessing the 'right' schools (far easier than having to pretend to go to church, god forbid!) or extra time for exams and the high marks that can bring than it has drawbacks... and of course when they leave school they suddenly 'get better' in terms of declaring their disability to employers or whatever except in those situations where it's adventageous to do so.

 

Please appreciate I am not making any generalisations that all children with 'woolly' dx's fall into these categories, or that they can't equally apply to children with non-woolly diagnosis or to children dx'd through the more regular system. I'm also not overlooking that there are probably significant numbers of children who would legitimately meet the criteria for diagnosis who are not, for whatever reason, getting it.

 

But what I am saying is that it's a very complex issue, and that provision needs to be needs based on genuine, holistic, needs based assessment, which it isn't, and that there shouldn't be things like postcode lotteries or wooly dx's getting in the way of that. Similarly, our educational system does need to get back to the point where it serves the needs of the majority as well as meeting the needs of minorities (disabled or otherwise), rather than the topsy-turvy system we have at the moment where schools have to contend with violent, aggressive, disruptive, uninterested kids without the ability to effectively sanction such behaviours. If that means more exclusions then that's the price we have to pay, but the key to it should be identifying - honestly and fully - the underlying reasons for such behaviours and addressing them properly. At the monment, the cost of warehousing such kids to the detriment of greenhousing non-disruptive, non-aggressive, interested kids is far too great, and that is not entirely down to needs not being met by 'the system'.

 

L&P (and pleeeze don't take me out of context anyone )

 

BD

[GaryS]

Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. IMO the "wooly" diagnosis are being used to REPLACE a traditional DSM centred classification with it seems full intent on side stepping the requirement for provision as no actual diagnosis is being made. This does satisfy some individuals/parents who know there is "something wrong" but can do absolutely nothing to help the child in school or adult in the workplace.

 

It seems to me as there are two ends of the same argument internally conspiring to ignore the others existence. The providers need rules and the rule makers need classification. ASC is (I think) impossible to classify so the rules can't be made and provision can't be segregated into a need/don't need. It's like picking up mercury with tweezers.

 

We could completely take over this thread with this discussion! So I'll stop here, simply ending with a suggestion that empowering teachers now in an attempt control the systematic and individual failures of the last ten or twenty years (probably much longer) is not IMO the way to improve classroom behaviour - in fact, it will probably make it worse. Jamie's Dream School - which is working, engagement or bullying?

Edited March 21, 2011 by GaryS

[baddad]

Sorry, I'm not explaining myself. IMO the "wooly" diagnosis are being used to REPLACE a traditional DSM centred classification with it seems full intent on side stepping the requirement for provision as no actual diagnosis is being made. This does satisfy some individuals/parents who know there is "something wrong" but can do absolutely nothing to help the child in school or adult in the workplace.

 

It seems to me as there are two ends of the same argument internally conspiring to ignore the others existence. The providers need rules and the rule makers need classification. ASC is (I think) impossible to classify so the rules can't be made and provision can't be segregated into a need/don't need. It's like picking up mercury with tweezers.

 

We could completely take over this thread with this discussion! So I'll stop here, simply ending with a suggestion that empowering teachers now in an attempt control the systematic and individual failures of the last ten or twenty years (probably much longer) is not IMO the way to improve classroom behaviour - in fact, it will probably make it worse. Jamie's Dream School - which is working, engagement or bullying?

 

As you say, we could take over the whole thread... I haven't watched enough of 'Jamie's dream school' to comment - only half an episode last week, but in the bits I did see I saw a very keen and determined girl student struggling to overcome barriers being placed in front of her by disruptive classmates who almost completely undermined the project she and one 'expert' teacher eventually managed to complete. I saw another girl student get excluded, quite rightly, for behaviour that no teacher should have to contend with and that could, within a normal school environment, easily have tipped over into dangerous and violent aggressive behaviour, and I saw her mother 'enabling' her to blame the teacher for the situation. I saw an American teacher who very succesfully engaged with the students who also had the courage to say something no educational professional in the UK would be able to: That the children he had been presented with as 'bright' in no way fit the criteria in any way he could understand it...

Of course, some of the children were responding well to having massive amounts of time, money and resources thrown at them in circumstances that no state school could ever dream of offering, and the presence of Jamie Oliver and other celebrity teachers and a film crew as an incentive to attend in the first place. Chances are had Mr Oliver and Co not been there, and had this 'experiment' been run without TV coverage, very few of the students - including the ones now coming good - would have shown up for the second day, let alone the second week.

 

I will try to watch some more episodes, and believe me I would LOVE to see evidence that my cynicism is unfounded. I'm also not for a moment saying that the disaffected, disruptive kids should be 'written off' or anything like that - I just think we need to be far more honest about the range of possible reasons, and we need to make sure that the kids like the young girl mentioned above (and the young boy in the programme who was working his nuts off to catch up on his maths skills)don't fall through the cracks because as a society we're afraid to face up to the reality that there are bigger influences on our children's development than 'peer pressure' and the failure of 'the system'.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Hi chaps,

 

Please, pretty please, if you want to discuss Jamie's school (fascinating stuff)or wider issues not directly related to the OP could you start another thread? :pray:

 

Ta

 

Kathryn

[bid]

Thanks very much for your comment, your are right that is a waste of a worry, I will try not to focus on that part, i dont know maybe i have an unrealistic view of parenting, i just want to be at peace and things to be resolved smoothly, i am only human and sometimes i raise my voice instead of counting to 10 and calming down, i know yelling does not work and yet i do it sometimes. I think i need to work on myself and my very high expectations.

 

kind regards

 

j

 

 

Oh dear Mygifts!! <'> I'm not sure how many children you have, but I have 4 and I can say that I have shouted a fair bit over the last 22 years of parenting!!

 

My eldest is the one with AS, and he moved out last year to live independently in his own little flat and he works full-time to support himself. The other three are all lovely kids, who work hard at school, and my eldest daughter spends her Saturdays and school holidays volunteering with children with special needs/babysitting for a little lad with special needs.

 

So, all in all, while I know we have made loads of mistakes just like all parents because we are only human, I don't think we've done too badly at parenting, including shouting sometimes!!

 

I would be a bit easier on yourself, and the fact that you worry so much and reflect on your parenting means you are a good parent!

 

Bid

[GaryS]

Hi chaps,

 

Please, pretty please, if you want to discuss Jamie's school (fascinating stuff)or wider issues not directly related to the OP could you start another thread? :pray:

 

Ta

 

Kathryn

 

FairyNuff

 

http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/Index.php?/topic/26358-jamies-dream-school/

[mygifts1306]

thanks you all for taking the time to read my post and responding so extensively. I appreciate your time and energy, the posters in here are real, and thank you so much, i have never known a forum like this. keep it up guys, I dont always respond to posts as sometimes i dont know what to say really.

 

thanks a lot

 

jax xx