Violent outbursts

[2pink2blue]

Hi,

 

A while since I've popped my head in here...busy mostly but also the lasst few months have been quite settled.

 

However, we are back to violent outburst which this time have been seen as calculated. We had a big problem with aggresion and violence almost a year ago now and things were pretty bleak! Not sure how I'm going to cope if we are going back there again. He was sent home from school yesterday, or rather we decided to collect him, school against rewarding outbursts with getting sent home. Today he is back but will be completely 1 to 1 for the safety of everyone involved.

 

Toby is 8 and to think he can be so aggressive is heartbreaking. To know that yesterday it appeared to be pre-meditated and calculated is worse. He has always had trouble controlling his emotions, throwing, head butting, scratching, biting, himself and others but it was very 'in the moment'. It didn't happen often, you could see triggers and get him to calm and stop and think most of the time. This type of behaviour is not tolerated, he doesn't get rewarded for it and he is sometimes sorry. There are times when he feels he was in the right, especially if something was done to him first.

 

I'm not sure what I can do for him now. We have obviously talked to him about yesterday and he has sanctions in place but this obviously isn't working long term.

I can feel a difference in him I can't explain but it is exactly how it felt last time and it is not a cycle I want to repeat.

 

Any advice would be great, anyone going through similar would be good too.

 

Would like to add, Toby can be lovely and at home things are not (as yet) difficult and he has improved in many respects this year including self awreness and responsibility over his own actions.

 

Thanks for reading, feeling a little lost and not really seeing a way forward,

Sue

[baddad]

Hi 2 pink 2 blue -

 

Haven't got much advice, other than that if sanctions don't work it's usually down to the nature of the sanctions or the way they are being enforced. They have to be concrete, have real meaning and value to the child and be rigorously stuck to. I agree with school about sending home being a reward - why did you decide against that, and how did you ensure going home wasn't a reward? Of course, he needs positive reinforcers for good behaviour too, but it's odds on he gets those anyway without allowing him to 'milk it'. Very unlikely that a lack of positive reinforcement for positive behaviours is the root of the problem, but almost certainly the 'sanctions' are failing to live up to the word in some way.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

[2pink2blue]

The sanctions are the same as always, loss of time or complete ban on wii, ds, computer etc., taking away pocket money, or whatever matters to him at the time. Sanctions are consistent between me and my husband. They also are the same sanctions he has had for years really, with modifications for his age/interests. There is an element of not being able to see the sanction when he is becoming angry/frustrated/anxious...sanction will still be put into place, zero tolerance for any violent/aggressive behaviour.

 

At school sanctions are similar, missing out or taking out of soft play/football/trips. Sanctions, I feel, only work up to a point with both Toby and his AS sister (and in some respects the rest of the children!) for the reason of problems conecting now with later iyswim! Doesn't mean I don't feel they are needed or important but that they need to be part of a strategy/plan.

 

The decision to bring him home was a joint one with school because of safety, his and others, and his absolute inability to calm down.

Not rewarding being off school is difficult. He is not allowed tv etc etc and has to work at home. He normally prefers school to working at home. Was home/schooled for 18 months a while ago. But obviously it is easier for him to be at home, to just 'be' without having to deal with everything else. I honestly do not feel he 'kicked off' to get sent home. He went, firstly because someone stole a ball! and there doesn't seem much more thought process went into anything else other than firstly fighting against being restrained and then hurting because he was hurt. I hope I'm making sense here!

 

Yep he gets positve reinforcement for positive behaviour both from school and home and again as consistent and child orientated as we can make it. He likes praise and knowing that he's done well.

 

What gets me most is that there is nothing I can put my finger on but we get these downward turns for what seems no reason. Some are little blips but this one like last years are so different in feeling. I can't explain this well...and worryingly I don't know what to do to stop it happening again or getting worse.

[baddad]

Hi again -

 

Difficult really: if you're sure you doing everything right then all you can really do is keep on doing it. It's not easy, but it does work long term. Hope you don't mind me pointing this out, but your two posts do seem very contradictory, because you said initially that the outbursts did seem premeditated and calculated, and seemed to indicate that you had made the decision to collect him rather than the school insigating that, which is the opposite of what you say in the second post. You also seem somewhat uncertain about the benefits of sanctions and his ability to 'connect' events and sanctions, but surely if that was a factor it would apply equally to rewards which you say he has no problem recognising? You also seem to be justifying his behaviour for him - it wasn't his fault, but the fault of a - the person who took his ball, b- the person who restrained him and c- the person who hurt him. Perhaps he's receiving mixed signals too?

 

Hope that's helpful

 

L&P

 

BD

[2pink2blue]

Firstly I'm sure I'm not doing everything right! If only! But I think the only thing we can do is keep doing it really. Not really seeing another option but will be waiting to see whether CAMHs has anything they can suggest. I don't mind you pointing it out at all, another person to talk things through with is very much appreciated! Thank you.

 

However, things have settled and fingers crossed we have it remain that way. Not surprised the posts seem contradictory really given my state of mind but I was really trying to give more information in the second post. The whole being taken home situation was my suggestion based on what school were telling me and rapidly agreed by school. It was and will hopefully be a one off. Neither school or I want this to be the 'norm'. Also contradictory to my posts is that he has been moved to an older class with a more experienced teacher rather than 1 to 1. Which suggests that they are confident things are more stable, I hope!

 

The calculatedness or pre meditated has come from school, I have little evidence of this at home but I have no reason to not believe the school that this is how he was on Thursday. I find that hard, that's all really.

 

I think you missunderstood me on the sanctions/praise, probably didn't explain myself well! It's not that he doesn't connect the punishment for the crime or the praise for the good behaviour. He knows why he was punished, he knows we are upset and disappointed with him and he is sorry for what he did. This has not always been the case...been quite a long time getting to here. What I feel more is that he isn't able to think he shouldn't do something when he is 'in the moment' when he has 'lost control' or whichever phrase for it you want to use. Also praise tends to be immediate, punishment later. He can take a long time to calm down which may look like his behaviour is more under control than it is?! Or he really was chosing to behave that way, I can't really know. Hard enough when I'm there almost impossible when I'm not. He can't explain other than he wa very angry and was shaking.

 

We have always told him he has the choice to behave how he wants to but in actual fact I'm not sure he has. He has better control now than he did and his sister, 12, has almost total control of herself.But I'm in no way justifying his behaviour to him or anyone else! It is wrong it needs to be corrected and he needs to learn how to be able to do this. I need to learn how best to help him get there. More my post was about understanding and thinking. I know he hates to be held, restraint is only ever used when it has to be but it is necessary and he knows why he is restrained and that it wouldn't happen if he wasn't being violent. He's not given the message that it is ok to headbutt because you don't like being held! I really do hope that the signals we pass to him are the zero tolerance on violence that we hold for all the children.

 

Again I hope this explains more and it really does help to have someone take the time to reply. It stops the thoughts just bouncing round the inside of my head! More if there is something I can learn, do differently or understand about myself to help him then I will. Like I said I'm certain I'm not doing it all right but I am fairly certain I'm doing it wrong consistently

 

Anyway, peace and calm reigns once more for the moment, thanks again,

Sue

 

 

BD

[baddad]

Hi again, 2 pink 2 blue -

 

It doesn't sound as though you're 'doing it wrong' and consistency is the key, so I'm sure you'll get there

 

Re-reading your initial post I see Toby is 8, and I think there's a good chance that'll be part of it. There's a biggish leap in understanding as they move from infants to juniors, and then you get a lot of pre-puberty stuff kicking in too. I've seen it enough in my own son and others to feel that for most kids on the spectrum development seems to happen in 'quantum leaps' rather than the more linear progression that happens for most (?) kids [NB: I put that question mark there 'cos i don't really have enough direct knowledge of non-autistic kids to say it's different, it just seems to be, from an observer POV].

 

For my son, when his understanding made a 'leap' forward it would often mean a period of adjustment where other established skills would suffer - i.e. at a point when he seemed to be coming to grips with a new social construct there would be a re-emergenge of an 'old' stim, or sometimes a period of vagueness / forgetfulness which would mean he needed lots more prompts and reminders. It was sort of as though his system couldn't cope with everything at once, and needed a month or so to catch up. He would, though, and when he did the new skills would be consolidated with the old and he'd then have a period of grace before the next leap forward... Hope that makes sense (?)

 

One other thing I would reiterate: you can't lower your expectations (or guard!) in respect of the established stuff to compensate for the new. If you do, you'll probably end up with lost skills and twice as much work regaining them. If the 'quantum leap' is one in social understanding (and his age makes that seem likely) then it will undoubtedly include some realisation that some behaviours are having a negative impact on how other people perceive him. That opens the door for all sorts of dialogue that can help him, but you have to make sure that's approached fairly casually (rather than 'preachily') and that it doesn't reinforce the negative associations, while simultaneously making sure it doesn't exempt him from responsibility or the consequences of those behaviours. It's a tough line...

 

We have always told him he has the choice to behave how he wants to but in actual fact I'm not sure he has

 

He has. We all have. The degree to which any individual has that control will vary, but in terms of adult behaviour it is hugely dependent on lessons learnt in childhood (The jesuits were right, in that respect at least!! Give me a child to the age of seven...). Abusive husbands / fathers/ wives/ mothers all make the same excuses about 'seeing red' and not having any control, yet quite clearly that is almost invariably not the case as they only tend to lose control with carefully selected victims. There is a very, very tiny minority for whom control really is impossible, but that's got nothing to do with autism and the long term prospects are bleak both for them and for anyone who comes into contact with them.

 

Keep the consequences real and consistent and offer lots of support and positive feedback for the good stuff and chances are that the final 12-18 months in juniors will see him make lots of progress. Of course, that then gets you to the next big transition and the next rush of hormones etc, but if you've negotiated this round well that will put him - and you - in a much better position to deal with it.

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

[2pink2blue]

I agree there is usually a regression in some areas when new advances are being made, to a lesser extent this can be the same with nt children too and progress still comes in peaks and troughs. Toby has a twin brother so comparisons can be made, we actively try not to but it is almost impossible sometimes! I'm fairly sure some of this 'leaping' is going on with Toby.And I'm so looking forward to the whole puberty thing!!!!

 

We haven't lowered expectations, I don't think anyway. He has been aware of how his behaviour effects others for a while...to a certain extent anyway. We have talked about this with him in the past and when opportunity arises. As you say nothing to heavy! He is able to talk about his emotions and feelings reasonably well a ot lof the time, although this is fast disappearing!! I agree again, a very tough line...it's all a little tough at the moment and I feel like I'm floundering to understand him and help.

 

Yes he has an ability to control himself...it's just very poor!!! This is why I'm so concerned now. I want him to have the best possible future..not one where he does someone some serious damage to someone. Although as pointed out today all his violent actions were not directed at anyone else. He's had a very bad afternoon!!! They were directed firstly at himself and then the objects in the room...throwing but not 'at' anything or anyone, just throwing. He's thrown since before he could walk! When he does hit out it can also be at anyone, no target just who's there, especially if they are holding him. Again I'm not condoning his behaviour or justifying it or think it's ok! None of this is ok!!

 

It's interesting you say none of this is to do with autism...maybe you are right...it has been felt from time to time that something else is going on. Of course, helpfully nobody who raises this suggests what the 'something' is. He has very high anxiety, which when kept to a low level makes life much easier for him to function in every way.

 

Consequences are still in place and consistent. Lots of support and positive feedback...not just family but from lots of staff at school.

 

And he is now on his second exclusion in just over a week....

 

Having said that we did notice a huge change with his sister from yr 4 up and even now at 12 in the full flush of puberty is doing/coping brilliantly. A light at the end of the tunnel we couldn't always see when she was 8!

 

I'm just at the stage of what happens if this all doesn't work....but we keep going...and going...

 

thanks for the reply!

Sue

[kerrie]

hi, i have a 7 yr old son who i am having problems with at the moment with being aggresive and also trying to punish himself for things hes done wrong, as in scratching himself, he says he does this because he has been naughty and deserves it. at the moment we r trying to distract him and prevent it. talk him out the situation before it escalates to something quite bad. but we also take away the thing that he most loves at that moment. ( which 9 out of 10 times leads to a bigger outburst anyway.)

my son also has the ability to control it if its over something little, but when he really is going on 1, he is like a different person, then when he comes out of it, then he is gutted that any of it has gone off.

i havent much experience about any of it, my son is not diagnosed with anything but just seems seems to have afew issues that i find i can relate to on this site. i come on here as it helps me get my head round it all, which helps me deal with it better.

[2pink2blue]

Thanks Kerrie,

 

I used to come to this site a lot when my daughter was undiagnosed and trying to find answers. Always found it a great help, especially when going through the diagnosis process.

 

Toby is the same in that after it has happened he feels sad and wants to make it better. It is getting him to stop when it is happening. At home, seeing the triggers are easier and I can talk to him earlier and talk him through his feelings and more often help him to remain calm and in control. At school the escalation seems to be so quick and Friday a trigger wasn't even spotted but later Toby said it was something that happened on the yard that started a major downward spiral!

 

I hope you get answers to your questions here and the support. Would say that diagnosis was the best thing I did for both my children who have asd's.

Sue

[Sally44]

Things that we have used in the past that have been helpful [sometimes helpful in identifying that a skill is or isn't there], are the following.

 

Using social stores or comic strip cartoons about situations that have happened which have upset him, or are similar. And which give information about what he should say or do.

 

Predicting outcomes. The SALT gave us a number of pictures with a short paragraph of a story underneath and we had to read it to our son and ask him certain questions about the story and possible outcomes. That was very interesting because it highlighted what he picked up from the story and what he did not pick up or understand. And you need a certain level of this skills to be successful in social interactions and in negotiating and getting a good outcome.

 

Theory of mind. Children with an ASD can think everyone has the same experience or level of knowledge that they do. This can cause alot of problems, frustrations and lack of understanding. Some children have theory of mind to some degree eg. may pass the Sally Ann Test, but not some of the more complex tests. To negotiate and interact socially with some success, you do need some theory of mind. You need to know what others know and you need to be able to predict others reactions to what you say and/or do. Without that you are acting blind, and often may rely on rote phrases, or on things seen in films or TV which maybe totally inappropriate. Theory of mind cannot be taught.

[jenny-ann]

Hi there.... just wanted to jion the discussion.... Im not so sure that theory of mind cannot be taught!

Simon Baron-Cohens book 'Teaching children with autism to mind read'.... does indicate that perhaps some of the basics can be taught.

I do also think, and this isnt based on any knowledge, that loads of these skills which neurotypical kids just develop naturally, can be taught.... how ??? Well that I dont know lol. I just know that I have learnt to teach my son many things which I was told he would never learn.

i also believe that becaus asd kids , well certainly those with autism, have difficulty in learning things taught implicitly, and so thye need to be more obvious, expicit. Learning the one thing at a time... the name of an item, how a person who is very familiar to them feels if they are hurt, do they feel the same way about thomas the tank engine ?? i hope Im manking sense... lol probabaly not.

Im also very thankful that my son is now in a special needs school as he is happy. is he learning as fast as he could...definitley not. But the school is resource lead not to give the best to my osn or anyone elses.... they meet his immediate needs nd do there very best, but as I say there are resource issues.

if my son had a consistent approach to his speech therapy, his social use of language program and if these sessions wwre daily instead of weekly, more detailed and accurate communication between school and myself....the list goes on....

Alos the eccelctic approach used by the school my son attends is riddled with inconsistecies. His IEP is probabaly like everyones elses.... SMART .... mmm not sure. So is education letting our kids down? Proabably, but Im sure that the teachers are doing their best.. amd for that im grateful. i also spend a good deal of time making sure tht I ahve a good relationship with them which is respectful of their role and is respectful of mine..

he is happy there, and I am grateful for that.

Edited November 1, 2011 by jenny-ann

[KezT]

My son also went through a paticuarly violent patch at 7/8 years. I think there are a number of elements, not least that the other children start recognising differences as being "bad" at that age, and therefore some will show less tolerance, and some will deliberately wind up the different child to elicit a reaction. Kids are vile sometimes.....

 

We did get CAMHS to take notice eventually, and DS had regular sessions with the pysch there around controlling his emotions/anger, what made him lash out and how to break the cycle of anger=violence. What she did with him was common sense really - he was intelligent enough to understand the concepts, as long as he was perfectly calm when discussing it. There was no point trying to talk to him about an incident when it had just happened!

 

If your son is able to cognitively process the idea that violence is ALWAYS wrong, and whatever was done to him first, the moment he hits out, he will be more wrong than anyone else involved, then that is a simple rule to understand (if not so simple to follow). You do need the school to be on board so that he knows what he SHOULD do if the situaion is getting too much for him. (a time out card/placeto go/specific teacher to talk to etc). Then it is a matter of working with him while he is clm to work out what the major trigers are, and what his options for escape are.....

 

It does take time though:(

[Sally44]

Just for clarification. Theory of mind is a neurological developmental stage. For some children it does not happen, and therefore no amount of explicit teaching will help because the 'concept' is just not there. For those that do have some theory of mind, then this skill can be worked on. Even those with quite good theory of mind still tend to take things literally - again because they either don't have the theory of mind skill, or they have learnt the skill on one scenario and cannot generalise it. They are vulnerable to manipulation due to superficially charming people who have alterior motives which the ASD child often cannot interpret. Again it depends very much on the child itself and on their individual abilities. The same goes for things like lying. An ASD child may have some degree of understanding this concept and maybe able to lie themselves or pick up the messages that someone else is lying. Or they may not have this skill [and lying, to a certain degree, is a social skill]

Often children with TOM, do understand when a situation is explained to them, but often it is not an automatic reaction to real life situations.