Help - Violent 4.5 year old @ School - meeting today!

[Grey Haven]

Hi,

 

I've posted before about Connor starting reception class this year at mainstream local school. The school have been excellent and he is presently doing 2 hours each morning as at present that is all they feel he can deal with and because of staffing (we don't yet have a statement!) they can for 1:1 for this period of time.

 

I requested a meeting today as I was looking to extend the hours a little as I was struggling with fitting everything in in the two hour window I have while he was a school and it was adding to my own pressures outside of school! Mum stressed = less likely for good behaviour.

 

Despite having verbal reports on Connor each day and a Home/School diary I was shocked to learn today and the school were experiencing escalating episodes of Connor being quite violent when asked to do something that he didnt' want to do.

 

We have had issues like this before, but they have ceased at home - even when he's in meltdown he no longer "goes" for me. However at school this is not the case and he has inflicted some quite nasty bites on teachers and really pulled/slapped other children before anyone could intervene.

 

Any other school would have excluded Connor by now (the local Autism outreach worker words, not mine!) so I am of course grateful to the school for perservering.

 

They have put as much as they can in place, giving him a tent to go in when he needs alone time, using visual prompts, 1:1, etc so they are doing everything "right" so to speak. The Outreach person is going in once a week as well.

 

What can I do to stop this violence? I'm terrified he's really going to hurt someone...........if we can stop the violence then the school can cope with everything else I'm sure!

 

The AOT (Autism outreach teacher) suspects (as do I) that Connor is just refusing to do things he doesn't want to (normal 4 year old asserting himself). Most kids would have a tantrum then give him, but it seems that once Connor gets to a certain "stage" of tantrum the Aspergers/Autism kicks in and he goes into meltdown and cannot control himself or his feelings.

 

I keep drumming into him "no kicking, no hitting, no biting" but this little mantra doesn't seem to help!

 

Any ideas?!?!?!?! I feel so low at the moment and actually burst into tears in the meeting

Edited October 12, 2011 by Grey Haven

[Lynden]

One thing that might help is tell him what you need him to do, not what you don't want him to do. Just a slight change in your language, so instead of 'no hitting', use 'hands down/hands on your lap' - that type of thing. You have to tell him what you want him to do and model the behaviour. It's difficult though as we have similar issues with my son when he gets anxious or angry.

 

Lynne

[baddad]

Hi grey haven - what else do you do other than 'the mantra'? There need to be concrete, meaningful and non-negotiable consequences when he enacts these behaviours, and you really do need to avoid the route / thinking that assumes he is 'out of control when the autism kicks in'... watch any programme on toddler taming and you'll see quite clearly that these behaviours are far from autism exclusive, and that without concrete boundaries, expectations and consequences all children - autistic/nt/otherwise are quite capable of taking these kinds of behaviours to levels and extremes that are incredibly challenging. I'd agree with Lynden about clear, precise instructions etc, but these do need to be backed up with sanctions that have real meaning for the child and are rigidly enforced. At 4.5 the 'naughty step' is certainly a viable option. The 'alone time tent' the school are offering seems much more likely to be an incentive for enacting violent behaviour rather than an effective sanction, especially if by going there he is rewarded with an opportunity to avoid doing the things he doesn't want to do (the major 'trigger' for the behaviours in the first place, they believe).

 

HTH

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited October 12, 2011 by baddad

[KezT]

we taught DS "no touching" - it meant he missed out on some games, but it was a simple rule that he could understand easily. We've no oved on to no touching unless you have asked for and been given specific permission (he's reaching puberty now so it became a bit more important not to touch the other children, even without hurting them, as his hands and hugs were everywhere!).

 

We also taught him and his classmates a "STOP" sign, which when used meant he had to stop whatever he was doing and stay still. This was used a lot with play as he couldn't tell when people had had enough. We also used it when e played rough and tumble with siblings and when we were out walking etc. Ous was a simple Hand up/flat palm Stop sign accompanied by saying "Stop child's name". We used it for a few years, but he doesn't (usually) need it any more)

 

We always use the carrot and stick approach. Start by offering carots until he understands the rule, then implement sticks when he breaks said rule;)

[justine1]

Hi

 

I agree with all the comments above sanctions definatley work But I would also ask does he have a visual timetable in class? Does he know whats "now and next"? and does he get some sort of warning 10min or so before the next activity? My son's school use a "good strip" we have now transfered this into our home, it is a strip with velcro thumbs up signs to stick either up for good and down for the not so good. When he does reading for example he will get a thumbs up and gets rewarded with choosing time, whereby he can chose something he likes to do for 10min, if he did'nt read he gets thumbs down and loses choosing time so 10min off something he really wants to do. Maybe suggest it to the school it works wonders.

[Sally44]

I think the above is good advice.

But there is also the fact that you say he is not doing this at home.

That school already acknowledge that he would not cope with more than 2 hours a day. Could it be that he is not even coping with that?

He maybe asserting himself. But to have a diagnosis of an ASD he MUST have difficulties with social understanding, emotional literacy and modulation, as well as sensory difficulties.

He maybe functioning at the threshhold of his capability and when something additional happens, he just snaps.

In my experience naughtiness, or bad behaviour does not result in meltdowns.

Behavious, that then turns into a meltdown is an ASD reaction to being overloaded and overwhelmed.

If he isn't coping with 2 hours, school admit they don't have support, you may need to seriously think about the placement.

If they did not put these instances in the home/school book, that makes the use of the book pointless.

Has the school referred to the Educational Psychologist?

Were you advised that mainstream was the right kind of educational placement for him?

Have you visited other types of provision eg. special school, autism unit. In those placements he should manage a full day AND get the more specialist teaching, AND they would work on social skills and it would have a larger budget for professional input.

If I were you I would ask school to log every incident, and for you to be told about it.

I would want the AAT to come up with WHAT school is going to do and how you will reinforce that at home - they are supposed to be the ASD specialist.

I would also want a timescale of something like 6 months to see him in school full time, or that everyone will then consider a different placement. I know how difficult it can be to be tied to the house because your child cannot tolerate school. My son is currently only managing 2 hours a week. As you say, you can't do anything else and when they are at home with you you have to give a large proportion of that time over to them.

The problem you may have if everyone decides he needs a different school in six months, is that all the special placements have been filled and you would have to go to an educational tribunal.

The school can also contact and refer to the speech and language therapist because social communication is part of her remit. If he is lashing out, rather than using language, that is her area as she should teach social communication skills.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

One things that I would take issue with the school is about the fact that he's only in school for 2 hours because of staffing issues, under the guise that that's all he can cope with. I know the country is in a financial mess, but I can't help wonder if the school/LEA are taking the easy option. For as long as you're 'happy' (I know you're not) with the arrangement, they're happy to keep it going – meanwhile kiddo is losing on out an education. I strongly suspect that if your son were in an school environment where he is well supported, he'd stand a much better chance of coping. It could be that class sizes are too big for him and that he'd cope better in a school (special or unit) where class sizes were much smaller e.g. 6. For what it's worth I was asked for a word with the HT during my son's first hour in school, where I was told if his behaviour continued he had no future there. I was furious because I never wanted him in a mainstream school and my hands were tied – then to suddenly write him off without giving it a go was in my view wrong. After a frank discussion (reminding the HT that I forewarned staff, even providing reports, tips, strategies, etc), we seemed to turn a corner by working together. It was very difficult and there were lots of issues mainly with other parents, etc, but things have improved greatly since then (R is now nearly 10). With age/maturity and teaching they can learn ways of coping and dealing with difficult situations.

 

In terms of what you're doing at home, all you can do is send out a clear message of what's expected of him in terms of his behaviour, accompanied with sanctions etc (already suggested by others). There are lots of times when it might feel like a fruitless tasks (i.e. doesn't seem to be sinking in) and things are likely to get worse before getting better. Also, in hindsight, I made the mistake of feeling guilty because I worked full-time; I'd try to do too much with R trying to make up quality time. In fact, what I was actually doing was overloading him. I found that 'simplest is best' i.e. instead of going to soft play, it was better going to the seaside. Social stories can help or comic strip stories by Carol Gray. ASD kids tend to pick up visual messages better than verbal ones and so employing the use of the stories might help.

 

Hang in there. Hope things improve soon.

 

Caroline.

 

 

 

Just wanted to add that there are psychologists who acknowledge and attribute the fact that there can be a discrepancy between the way that a child can behave at home and in school to their ability to cope. In school, for example, a child may hold it together very well and display very few difficulties/issues/behaviours, yet at home, be extremely challenging. At home a child can feel familiar/safe/secure, but 'vent' like a pressure cooker the frustrations of the day. Other children 'vent' at the time i.e. in school. In either situation, this is why it's so important that the children is well supported.

Edited October 13, 2011 by cmuir

[baddad]

I think the above is good advice.

But there is also the fact that you say he is not doing this at home.

That school already acknowledge that he would not cope with more than 2 hours a day. Could it be that he is not even coping with that?

He maybe asserting himself. But to have a diagnosis of an ASD he MUST have difficulties with social understanding, emotional literacy and modulation, as well as sensory difficulties.

He maybe functioning at the threshhold of his capability and when something additional happens, he just snaps.

In my experience naughtiness, or bad behaviour does not result in meltdowns.

Behavious, that then turns into a meltdown is an ASD reaction to being overloaded and overwhelmed.

If he isn't coping with 2 hours, school admit they don't have support, you may need to seriously think about the placement.

If they did not put these instances in the home/school book, that makes the use of the book pointless.

Has the school referred to the Educational Psychologist?

Were you advised that mainstream was the right kind of educational placement for him?

Have you visited other types of provision eg. special school, autism unit. In those placements he should manage a full day AND get the more specialist teaching, AND they would work on social skills and it would have a larger budget for professional input.

If I were you I would ask school to log every incident, and for you to be told about it.

I would want the AAT to come up with WHAT school is going to do and how you will reinforce that at home - they are supposed to be the ASD specialist.

I would also want a timescale of something like 6 months to see him in school full time, or that everyone will then consider a different placement. I know how difficult it can be to be tied to the house because your child cannot tolerate school. My son is currently only managing 2 hours a week. As you say, you can't do anything else and when they are at home with you you have to give a large proportion of that time over to them.

The problem you may have if everyone decides he needs a different school in six months, is that all the special placements have been filled and you would have to go to an educational tribunal.

The school can also contact and refer to the speech and language therapist because social communication is part of her remit. If he is lashing out, rather than using language, that is her area as she should teach social communication skills.

 

 

Hi Sally -

 

Sorry, but I totally disagree that:

Behavious, that then turns into a meltdown is an ASD reaction to being overloaded and overwhelmed

. You say this is 'your experience', but it is, in fact, your (subjective) interpretation of your experiences and is hugely coloured by what you 'want', (need?) or expect to see. To equate 'meltdowns' to 'ASD Overload' totally overlooks the very simple fact I have pointed out time and time (and time) again on these forums: these kinds of behaviours are not exclusive to autism and can be seen being enacted by children from all kinds of different backgrounds (and with no medical get out of jail free cards) pretty much any day of the week on programmes exploring children behavioural issues, and/or documentaries looking at things like children's welfare, social issues, children's health, education etc etc. Invariably, the problem proves not to be a 'medical' one, or the fault of the child, or due to some inherent difference in the child - and the answer usually lies in correcting the repsponses to the behaviours of parents/significant adults.

 

The reason I bother saying it over and over (and over) again is because I believe the kinds of assertions you make are actually dangerous, bordering on potentially abusive, given that they can be severely limiting in terms of that child's expectations regarding social opportunity, education and status and the impact those issues (not 'the judgements of others' or any other misdirection/projection that diverts responsibility elsewhere) can have on self-esteem.

 

There are many other far simpler explanations for why a child might be violent at school and not be violent at home (looking at the OP, the assertion being made is that the child has stopped being violent towards his mother, not that he has stopped acting out or having meltdowns completely at home). The most simple, as I've pointed out, is that the response to the behaviours in school reward the behaviours, actually encouraging meltdowns rather than discouraging them. Similarly, there could be many explanations for why the child might behave differently at home, one being that at least one adult is responding appropriately to the behaviours to stop them being enacted. Alternatively, it could be a situation where the child has now got so much control in the home that every effort is made to placate him before incidents escalate so there is no need for hiom to enact the behaviour to get the reward - he gets it anyway. Another could be a simple case of denial, subjective analysis and projection, where aggressive acts at home have become so much the norm that they are no longer perceived as violent or even acknowledged.

 

Obviously I do not know what is going on in this situation, but the odds are that there are very, very simple explanations for these behaviours that can be addressed by better child management by the adults involved than long term, potentially disabling, 'adjustments' like looking for new schools or a reduced curriculum or even a tent he can go to when he wants to avoid specific lessons. That may include visual reward schemes, lots of positive reinforcement for correct behaviours, visual timetables, clearer communication and all of the other very practical and useful stuff being mentioned, but underpinning it all there needs to be a clear 'logic' that sees behaviours for what they are rather than what we might want them to be or what a child may use as justification. And even if there are wider issues and differentiated timetables and changes of school are implied, that foundation still needs to be there and the same logic applied to ensure that the adjustments being made are positively enabling rather than enabling only in terms of further self-disablement.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited October 13, 2011 by baddad

[Sally44]

Baddad we just have to agree to differ.

You have expressed your "opinion" from your "experiences" and I have not tried to shoot it down.

So please respect mine. I too have a right to express what I think.

 

This child is not being supported in school due to 'staffing issues'. School are not coping and are putting that back onto the child and parent.

This child has the right to be in an educational setting that can meet his needs, and he should be being supported full time, if that is what is needed to get him in for the full day. If school cannot achieve that over an agreed timescale, then he is in the wrong place.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Sally44

[Lynden]

I don't think you can completely discount ASD in 'meltdowns'. I completely agree that my son can play the tantrum game like any other kid out there, but equally I, and his school, can tell the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown where he is actually completely overwhelmed by a situation and genuinely can't cope anymore. Part of that probably depends on the level of functioning of your child but definitely in our case there are times where he physically and mentally can't deal with or process a situation. To me a tantrum and a meltdown are two very different things and we manage both accordingly - or at least attempt to manage them.

 

Lynne

Edited October 13, 2011 by Lynden

[baddad]

I don't think you can completely discount ASD in 'meltdowns'. I completely agree that my son can play the tantrum game like any other kid out there, but equally I, and his school, can tell the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown where he is actually completely overwhelmed by a situation and genuinely can't cope anymore. Part of that probably depends on the level of functioning of your child but definitely in our case there are times where he physically and mentally can't deal with or process a situation. To me a tantrum and a meltdown are two very different things and we manage both accordingly - or at least attempt to manage them.

 

Lynne

 

No, I don't think you can totally discount ASD in situations where people become overloaded and stressed either - in fact I think that autism and social stress are often related. I just take issue with the term 'meltdown' used to make violent behaviours appear as something different to what they are and the automatic assumption that aggressive behaviours exhibited by autistic people must be 'autism related'. In this case we have a 4.5 year old child, little more than a baby really, who's behaving in the way that many undercontrolled children - as or otherwise - behave. For me, looking for the probable causes of that kind of behaviour in a small child is far more sensible, practical and important than looking for less probable alternative explanations that are just going to muddy the waters. Kids drown in muddy water, 'cos they can't see the 'snags' on the bottom.

A question. If a man - not an autistic man, just a regular joe - beats the cr@p out of his wife because he's having a 'meltdown' how do you tell the difference between that and an 'autistic meltdown'? And how does having autism justify it? Kids, autistic or otherwise, who are enabled in seeing violent behaviour as a solution to problems or who are offered excuses that take personal responsibility for their behaviour out of the equation are very likely to become violent adults. I imagine that the fact their mums can 'tell the difference' offers very little in terms of consolation for their victims.

 

L&P

 

BD

Edited October 13, 2011 by baddad

[Suze]

An interesting discussion, some very valid points.But its coming across a bit hard line at this point as Greyhaven is relatively new to the forum (having only made 7 posts)and the debate that has splintered off from the original OP is becoming far removed from any original queries that Greyhaven had.She has,nt even replied to her post yet and maybe put off doing so when she see,s how the thread has developed in her absence.I,m not saying posters can,t air their views or opinions but lets not become over zealous on this thread...start another Thread if you want to open the meltdown/tantrum debate further.Hope you guys will understand where I,m coming from on this , regards suzex

[Lynden]

aggressive behaviours exhibited by autistic people must be 'autism related'.

 

Just to be clear, and then will let the topic go back on thread - I don't for one second believe autism causes aggression nor is aggressive behaviour ever okay or excusable, whether it's a tantrum or a 'meltdown' in an autistic or an NT person. It's absolutely not, however I took from your reply to Sally that you disagreed that overload due to ASD could be a factor. In my experience, it definitely can be and the way we would deal with each situation would differ, and that works for us, because the causes are different.

 

Greyhaven will best know her child and situation and hopefully will manage to make use of some of the advice given on the thread before we splintered off.