Numeracy skills

[dekra]

Hi,

 

I just picked Finn up from nursery and the teacher was telling me they were working on numbers today and he managed to count all the way to 69 today. He is 4 years and 3 months old. The standard kids his age are expected to know is 1-5 and children in primary 1 should be able to count to 10.

 

It totally amazes me that he is obviously advanced in his numeracy yet they are considering holding him back from starting school until he is 6 instead of 5 due to his inability to communicate and therefore participate in the curriculum.

[bid]

Hi dekra,

 

I think it's very important to consider that the ability to count to a high number doesn't indicate whether a child has a good understanding of numeracy that is age appropriate, or whether they are actually advanced in numeracy.

 

For example, being able to say numbers from 1 to 69 is not the same as understanding the concept that the numbers 1 to 5 can correlate to 5 actual objects, which another nursery age child might have grasped. The nursery age child who can do the latter is actually more advanced in numeracy than the child who can count to a high number.

 

HTH

 

Bid

Edited November 11, 2011 by bid

[justine1]

Hi

 

Sam was able to count to 40 when he was 2 and he also knew different bus numbers and where they were going,like associated each number with destination without being able to read. Overall he would look around for numbers everywhere reading number plates etc. However up until he was 7 he had no interest in applying maths,he could not add. He does very well at maths and science now because he gets support but he struggles with the basics,does better at more complex maths. Which is a problem really and something we are working on at school and home.

 

Is he able to recognise the numbers or just memorise the order? If you did flash cards and jumbled them would he still be able to know?

Edited November 12, 2011 by justine1

[dekra]

He recognises numbers and also does bus numbers. If we are going anywhere he identifies the journey by the road we take eg "number 8" for the M8 or 736 for going to Braehead. He does not just count by rote but can independently put together numbers to get a new double digit number. For example today he met me at the door at nursery with large foam numbers 3 and 5 so I asked him what the numbers were and he said thirty five which surprised me as when counting by rote with me he usually stops around 30. That was what sparked the conversation about his skills at nursery. I know he understands relating numbers to things at least in smaller amounts as he usually counts objects, the numnber of chicken pops on his plate,people in a queue etc.

 

He however cannot write his numbers, can't write his name which kids his age should be attempting although he can recognise his name and some other words. Even his drawing skills are non existent and I am anticipating problems on the writing side of things when the time comes.

[darkshine]

Maybe numbers make sense cuz they follow set rules... I used to like numbers as a kid, there's something calming about order

[Lynden]

Could he put 3 and 5 together to get 8 though? I think that's Bids point. L can "count" fairly high, but the numbers don't mean anything and it's one of his targets to be able to actually quantify numbers to 4 - ie 1 + 3 = 4 rather than just using rote and recognition.

 

Something to encourage though as it sounds like he is really interested in numbers

 

Lynne x

[dekra]

No he can't add 5 & 3 to get 8. Abstract addition is defo a lot more advanced than he is working at. He does understand if you have 4 items and need 5 then you need to find 1 more. I don't see why so many people are quick to knock me down here. I've spent 4 years where Finn's struggled to keep up with his peer group in so many ways is it wrong to be pleased he's ahead in one area?

 

For myself I loved numbers as a child, still do really. My primary 3 teacher told my mother off for teaching me short division when the class were learning long division. My mum told her no-one at home had taught me short division. I'd just realised it was easier and quicker to do it that way rather than all the mess of long division - I was an still am very lazy, why make work for yourself when you can do something more efficiently.

[justine1]

No he can't add 5 & 3 to get 8. Abstract addition is defo a lot more advanced than he is working at. He does understand if you have 4 items and need 5 then you need to find 1 more. I don't see why so many people are quick to knock me down here. I've spent 4 years where Finn's struggled to keep up with his peer group in so many ways is it wrong to be pleased he's ahead in one area?

 

For myself I loved numbers as a child, still do really. My primary 3 teacher told my mother off for teaching me short division when the class were learning long division. My mum told her no-one at home had taught me short division. I'd just realised it was easier and quicker to do it that way rather than all the mess of long division - I was an still am very lazy, why make work for yourself when you can do something more efficiently.

Sorry if you feel anyone is knocking you down <'> I don't think that is the case at all,I think people are just looking at it from their own experience andd giving their opinion based on the experience.

 

As mentioned above if he likes numbers its great and I am sure you will do everything to encourage this. IMO it is a challenge if a child is more gifted/talented in one area as they do seem to focus on just that and other work suffers,like you mentioned with the possible problems with writing.

 

Sam and Dan both do well at maths and really struggle with writing. Sam is a very advanced reader but cannot understand what he has read,especially if it has anything to do with people. For me to get Sam to read I have to use bribery but when he has maths homework he does it straight away,he usually has 4 days to complete it but does so in 15min. So its a challenge for me to try and get him to work hard in all areas whilst still encouraging him in the areas he does well at.

 

So just keep helping him in any way you can

Edited November 13, 2011 by justine1

[dekra]

Sorry my reply this morning was more abrupt than it should have been after a day visiting my family who love to go on about my cousins daughter who is a month older than my son and who has a physical disability. They constantly compare but any area my son is ahead is dismissed. That said areas he is behind are also dismissed but with the subtle hint that yes he's certainly behind his cousin. Interestingly enough I noticed my interaction with family more as this is the first time I've been more than one of them at a time since I suspected that I myself may have AS. Was in town shopping with one of my cousins last week and she was there yesterday and I noticed both with me and the family in general she will suddenly interupt a convo and completely start a new one about people most of us either not or hardly know. Even I at my most obsessed turn the conversation around to my "pet" topic rather than such an abrupt change. Maybe it's the way my family are, either learnt behaviour or more AS traits without actual AS.

[Sally44]

It is good that he is interested in numbers, so you do have something to work with.

 

He is young, but you can buy packs of cards with number bonds for numbers up to 10.

 

I also bought an abacus for my son [when he was around 4], and it is only now [age 10] that he can use it. But the abacus helps him use real objects.

 

So use anything 'real' to count things. Whatever his interest is.

 

It is very interesting that although he can count, and say one more, that he cannot write his name or numbers. My son was exactly the same. He went on to get a diagnosis of severe visual dysgraphia. So look into that.

 

It is a totally different skill to be able to tie auditory information to a visual concept when you don't have the numbers or letters infront of you to refer to. This could have a profound effect on his ability to write as well as numeracy. These types of difficulties can be due to a specific learning difficulty.

 

Regarding holding him back a year. If he has visual dysgraphia, or other simiar difficulties, then a year won't make any difference. It is more important to get the right amount of support and therapies in the right placement. If you do end up having to hold him back a year in primary - then you need to start seriously thinking about the right kind of secondary placement and give yourself a couple of years to find what you think is a suitable placement because you may need to go to a Tribunal at that stage.

 

For now, the most important thing is to keep him happy, interested and motivated and to keep his anxiety down.

 

With my own child I found that his self awareness of his own differences and difficulties caused him many problems. If he is held back a year he may at some point in the future recognise that. But I know that special primary schools [especially for cognitively able children] are difficult to find and difficult to get at a Tribunal - Secondary placements are very different.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Sally44

[Lynden]

I'm sorry if you felt you were being knocked down - it certainly wasn't the intention. I think it's fab that he is so interested in numbers and definitely something to encourage as it's a fantastic way of learning and numbers can be used to help learn many other useful skills too.

 

For me we had similar with reading in that L can read far more than he can comprehend so at school he is on much lower level books than you would think he should be because we (school and I) want to make sure he can actually comprehend the story and not just read the words

 

Lynne x

[dekra]

Don't apologise Lynne, I was overly sensitive after a strained day yesterday and should have been more receptive to constructive comments regarding a perceived ability and it's limitations. I want to be able to ask questions in future and have honest answers from people here and not have you guys worry I'm going to snap at you if I don't like what I am hearing. So thank you for answering and let me give the apology.

 

I may raise visual dysgraphia with the language resource people in a few weeks once Finn has settled in there and see if they have any concern in that respect. Certainly colouring in is an activity that Finn doesn't do at home - he has no interest so I don't push it on him. He comes home from nursery with paintings and drawings at times but there is never a badly drawn face or any recognisable object he just does not have the co-ordination to do it. Whilst he is good at recognising his shapes also he cannot draw them either.

 

I am actually just realising now that I am buying Christmas presents for my 14 month old just how little Finn played with toys when he was smaller (and still doesn't). I almost feel like a new mum when I am going looking for appropriate toys to buy the little one as I have no experience of what her brother liked at the same age. Yesterday Faith independantly climbed onto Finn's rocking horse (one of those plastic little tikes kind) and was making it rock. Finn didn't have the co-ordination or balance to do that until around a year or more older. So many of the little signs that we missed when he was smaller that match with his GDD that as novice parents we just put down to natural differences in childrens development but which in hind-sight may have been another sign yet we were only really noticing his speech problems and lack of social interaction.

[bid]

Dekra, I'm sorry too if I made you feel knocked down <'>

 

My DH is head of maths at a special school, so I probably hear too much about numeracy skills

 

My son with ASD was also my eldest, and I know what you mean about any subsequent children. If he had been my second, I would have been flagging up concerns almost from when he was a tiny baby, but you just think that must be the norm.

 

Bid

Edited November 13, 2011 by bid

[dekra]

Bid you made a valid point and I thank you for it. As I already said sorry for coming off abrupt earlier and taking out frustrations at family out on you guys.

 

I am currently double guessing my own motives for wanting my son to be good at maths as it has always been one of my talents and I guess I want to share that love of numbers with him. Of course now my head is going around in circles and making me think I am just exaggerating my own social deficencies and issues in other areas so I can pursue a AS dx for myself so I have another thing I can share with him. But then I think about it properly and I do believe I am not exaggerating anything just finally not hiding many of the difficulties I have just got around and dealt with over the years. Can anyone else hear the buzzing in my head? If so please turn the power off cos it's really annoying me!!!

[Lynden]

I think what you are going through is very normal for anyone going through diagnosis and beyond. It takes a while to get your head around everything and it's really intense for a long time - you live and breath autism for a while. It does get easier though I'm not saying life will ever be easy for some of us, but as you learn you, and him, will learn how to better deal with what life throws at you.

 

Lynne x

[Sally44]

You've also now mentioned about his balance and co-ordination. Has he been assessed by an Occupational Therapist?

 

He may also have dyspraxia [and/or visual dysgraphia]. And writing is a very complicated motor-co-ordination exercise.

 

I would raise these issues also asap ie. poor balance and co-ordination. Ask if they refer to Occupational Therapy. If they don't, then go to your GP and either ask for a direct referal to Occupational Therapy - or go via the Paediatrician that diagnosed him.

 

It sounds like a combination of other difficulties commonly associated with an ASD are involved, and the sooner those needs are identified and those areas worked on, or supported, the better the outcome.

 

It took us years to get visual dysgraphia and dyspraxia onto my son's Statement. And we never had any OT input for those issues eventhough the GP also became involved. The NHS OT service does not commission 'therapy'. Many times it is advice to school or home for the TA or parent to carry out a programme. Often this is not sufficient. But it is just too expensive for the NHS to provide it. HOWEVER, if it is a need it should be in his Statement. And then the LA is responsible to meet that need. In our case it has meant that finally we secured an independent ASD specific school for secondary. So just bear this mind to be quietly working on getting the diagnoses in place during his primary years and any OT input you can get. And this may become very useful when you start to look at secondary placements because IF he does have these difficulties it is very likely he will have a specific learning difficulty due to them. That may make the LA placement options totally unsuitable for him.

[dekra]

It was the paediatrician himself that flagged up the area of his balance during his initial assessment but I think it is just being monitored at the moment to see if it improves and there by shows it may just have been the GDD effecting that area. It is very daunting having to consider his secondary education already when even his primary education is in doubt at the moment. I am not pushing any of the professionals involved too much at the moment as the language unit he recently started have asked their report to the paediatrician be delayed from Nov to Jan to allow him to settle in and assess him properly and I think that is fair enough. Come Jan and the review meeting I will be looking for more answers. I do know from my meeting with the EP that there will be a meeting in the spring that will involve everyone including myself and husband to discuss his primary schooling, for them to make recommendations before we make the final decision. I plan on having as much information as I can by then so I can agree/disagree/challenge any recommendations made.

Edited November 14, 2011 by dekra

[leeds_demon]

Hi

 

Sam was able to count to 40 when he was 2 and he also knew different bus numbers and where they were going,like associated each number with destination without being able to read. Overall he would look around for numbers everywhere reading number plates etc. However up until he was 7 he had no interest in applying maths,he could not add. He does very well at maths and science now because he gets support but he struggles with the basics,does better at more complex maths. Which is a problem really and something we are working on at school and home.

 

Is he able to recognise the numbers or just memorise the order? If you did flash cards and jumbled them would he still be able to know?

As a youngster in primary school I was hopeless at maths and at secondary school I was helpless. Apparently, having poor maths skills is something associated with Aspergers. However, Aspies are some to have good reading/writing skills. I was reading newspapers, at around the age of 10 and I an always remember the yearly reading tests at primary school and always wanting to beat one of my classmates, who seemed to do a bit better than me.