ASD and getting involved with crime

[Researcher]

Hi everyone

I'm a mum of an adult lad with Asperger's Syndrome/high functioning ASD who has had some horrid experiences through his young life and ended up in contact with the police a few times. I'm also a trainee forensic psychologist (career change!!) and wanting to find out more about how people with ASD can be better understood and supported in a mental health capacity and criminal justice capacity too.

Does anyone have experiences of committing a crime themselves or someone they know with ASD having done so?

[LancsLad]

Hi,

 

crime at what level, and does it matter if you were caught for it or not, and as such went through interactions with police and the criminal justice system?

[trekster]

i know someone who got drunk at his B&B. i turned up and he had a knife which when he put in his pocket

i grabbed (he told me if he was drunk get his knife), but his then social worker had already called the police.

He got in his car and started the engine. The landlord came out and tried to get him out of the car but

this guy swore and threatened to kill him.

 

The police turned up and took 4 of them to hold hm down. They bundled him into their car and took him away.

Later when he had sobered up i managed to get a phone call off him. He was in tears but the police were totally

unhelpful refusing to let me or him know when his court appearance was due. Even after i told them he's autistic

they just replied with 'yeah we know him alright'!

 

i went to the court but they werent there. i phoned the police and they told me 'well you can come and see him here',

what they meant was 'but we wont let you talk to him!'. i got to the police station to see him being speeded away

back to the court.

 

Eventually his mum picked me up and took me to the court as i was a witness to that incident. His dad (an MEP)

stood up and attempted to explain Aspergers to the court and the guy got let off with a fine. But he wasnt allowed to

drive so had to get a bike to cycle to the court from his home. i kept reminding him that he had to pay his fine and

even went with him to pay his fine (3 buses for me 2 for him). i have tried to help him get referred to a specialist in his

area but no one listens.

 

When i moved in he about 5 years ago, his started ringing me up drunk and scaring me with his behaviour. i even

rang my care team late one evening. The guy was eventually told by his housing officer to 'leave me alone or loose

his house'. Apart from rudely telling me where to go, i didnt hear anything from him until recently and he told me he

lost his job and home care team (somehow arriving and sleeping on someones sofa for 2 hours is anything but home

care).

[Sally44]

If you look on the National Autistic Society Website, there is a forthcoming conference specifically about those on the spectrum becoming involved with the criminal justice system. It might be of interest to you.

[Tally]

Having ASD doesn't make it OK to carry a knife or drink drive. Sounds like he was totally fairly treated. I don't think that was really what the question was about anyway.

[trekster]

He was defending his booze but the social worker took it the wrong way, also it was done in a joking way and he

wouldnt do that if he was sober. He didnt drink drive you misread my post, he started the car then sat down in

the car but he hadnt attempted to put the car in gear or move it. Somehow having his face smacked a few timesth

en being bundeld away in a police car is anything but fair treatment. He was having a severe meltdown caused

by a misunderstanding with a resident the night before.

 

Orginal question was "Does anyone have experiences of committing a crime themselves or someone they know with ASD having done so?"

Edited March 3, 2012 by trekster

[Tally]

Sitting in the driving seat even without the engine running is enough for you legally to be considered to be on charge if the car. Why would you have the engine running if you weren't intending to drive? Drunk person in car armed with a knife. If i was the police officer I think I'd have punched him too. Sounds like totally appropriate action by the police, and a shame he tried to use his autism to excuse that behaviour. He sounds dangerous. Have you considered a restraining order?

[AdamJ]

I was caught speeding on my motorbike on the M4. I won't say how fast I was going but it was enough for me to be at risk of community service and possibly even prison. (Just to explain, it was daybreak and there was no traffic in sight, though that is no legal defence).

 

I was supported very well by the mental health service. My CPN accompanied me to the police interview, and my clinical psychologist sent a report to the Court Liaison Officer (a mental health service employee) to enable her to detail my mental health status to the court. I also hired a barrister who made a case to the court that community service or jail would not be in the public interest and also detrimental to my continuing treatment by the mental health service. The combined input of the Court Liaison Officer and the barrister resulted in a £740 fine and a licence disqualification, which was the best I could have hoped for.

 

I should say that the reason for my being engaged with the mental health service was not directly due to my AS but rather due to mental health problems which themselves are probably secondary to AS. Also, no one representing me cited AS as any kind of defence or mitigation. In my case, AS had nothing to do with my breaking the law.

 

Anyway, this was two years ago and at that time, every court in Wiltshire had a Court Liaison Officer permanently assigned to it, such is the frequency with which the court has to deal with people with mental health problems. I don't know if other regions have liaison officers at every court.

Edited March 3, 2012 by AdamJ

[Sally44]

My niece works in a unit [not sure if it is termed medical or prison type service, but none of the inmates can leave], where ALL the inmates have learning disabilities and/or Autism and they have all been found guilty in a court of having broken the law.

 

And we are talking about serious offences.

 

All these inmates broke the law due to some aspect of how their learning disability affects them. One of them is so violent that he has to wear head protection because he bangs his head to such an extent that his skull is permanently fractured, exposing his brain.

 

I don't know individual cases, but I can see how someone with autism COULD be affected in such a way that they may be more likely to break the law.

[trekster]

Sitting in the driving seat even without the engine running is enough for you legally to be considered to be on charge if the car. Why would you have the engine running if you weren't intending to drive? Drunk person in car armed with a knife. If i was the police officer I think I'd have punched him too. Sounds like totally appropriate action by the police, and a shame he tried to use his autism to excuse that behaviour. He sounds dangerous. Have you considered a restraining order?

 

He didnt know that at the time. Also he was drunk and wasnt armed with the knife, if you look at my original post it says 'when he put it in his pocket i grabbedt' (was meant to say grabbed the knife so he was unarmed at the time). He wasnt using autism as an excuse he was having a several hour meltdown which resulted in him getting drunk to block eveything out. Police didnt punch him the landlord did because he was grabbed by the landlord. Notice he didnt try and hurt me, because i didnt try and hit him or pull him.

 

He is only dangerous when drunk and hasnt bothered me in about a year.

[Researcher]

Hi Everyone

Thank you so much for your replies - they are all very interesting.

I wish I had the opportunity to sit down and talk in more detail with you all!

Any sort of criminal conviction is enough to participate in my research - even very minor stuff - it's all as important to me in getting your perspective on how and why it happened and the support which has helped/not helped you.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to read my post and reply - you are all great!

Please have a look at my website (research-asd.org.uk) and give me your feedback even if you can't or don't want to participate!

Thank you again,

Best wishes

Theresa

[trekster]

The fella I have been describing was refused help by social services (his parents begging them to help him as he was living there).

 

NAS (they could have provided a support worker but the stupid rules means they arent allowed to ask Second Step if they can support this guy because it is a conflict of interests). All they did was say 'oh dear' when his parents rang for help.

 

The police (i have no idea why his drink related crimes couldn't have resulted in a compulsory detox).

 

The mental health team (he kept asking them for meds to help him sleep but was told 'i think you are playing a prank i see you in 6 months' by the psych). if he had adequate meds to sleep he wouldnt be knocking himself out with 2 large bottles of white lightening per night!

[Researcher]

Hi Trekster

This sounds like it could have been an 'clip' from my own life.

My son with ASD began to drink very heavily when he was about 17 yrs old, smoke cannabis and hang out with the kids who could provide him with it - but then he began to oprovide them once he turned 18.

They were all so tied up in their fantasy of being gangsters that they convinced my son he needed a gun to protect himself (he's also carried knives for 'protection' due to anxiety and fear). They took all his savings from him (saved by his grandfather from when he was born) but thank God, never gave him the gun - it was a con.

I can't imagine what might have happened if he had got a gun in one of his drunken episodes in which he would hallucinate and smash up his room at home - I try not to think about it!

There really is so little support for people with ASD - especially young adults - in mental health, social services and the criminal justice system.

Long term bullying has really awful consequences for the bullied person and their family - possibly even entire communities.

I so wish schools and workplaces would take more responsibility for what happens to the people who are part of their organisations rather than denying that anything is happening.

Fortunately my son decided himself to stop drinking because he realised eventually it was destroying his family and the long term effects are telling on everyone now - his brother and father are suffering from depression.

My battle continues...

[robert7111a]

Hi Researcher

 

I recently found out I had AS and from my own research, some AS people are targets for taunts, teasing and being easlily led. Often they are egged on to do something naughty by "friends" and get into trouble.

 

This happened to me when I was 16 a few months after I left home. I fell in with a "friend" who took advantage of the fact I knew where the money was kept in a shop that I once worked in. He wanted me to break in and steal the money which we both did. Then a few weeks after that I did something terrible and ended up going through the juvenile courts, going into care and getting a criminal record for life.

[Researcher]

Hi Robert

I'm not sure if you received my personal message but I'm really sorry to hear what an awful time you've had it must have been very traumatic for you. I can't imagine how distressed you must have been going through such difficulties as a child.

If you are interested in taking part in my research the URL for my website (it's all online) is:

www.research-asd.org.uk

I'd be grateful if you would consider it because it sounds like you have a lot to contribute.

Thank you

Theresa

[robert7111a]

Hi Theresa.

 

I'm really sorry but have not had time to read through my emails (work etc...) but I will have a look this evening. Just had a quickie look at your link but I don't think I fulfill your criteria. Because Asperger's was virtually unheard of until the 1980s, I am one of the "lost generation" who never received a diagnosis and had to struggle through the education system without support etc. I left school in the early 1980s by which time it was too late

[Researcher]

Hi Robert

No worries! I've just got back from uni today and am also behind now!

It sounds like you've had a really tough childhood, not getting a diagnosis and all.

My son was diagnosed late - at 14 years old - and that was only 6 years ago.

Unfortunately it seems that diagnosis for high functioning people with ASD/AS still has some way to go!

Did you self-diagnose?

Best wishes

Theresa

[robert7111a]

Hi Theresa

 

Yes I self-diagnose. I work in medicine and have a special interest in vaccines and autism (although this isn't my area of work). I see about 2-3 autistic/AS children every day in my clinics and through my observations and reading, I have a better understanding and can relate better to them. Many of these traits I see in myself which is why I have "discovered" my problem after all these years.

 

Can I still assist in your research?

 

By the way, the new DSM-V (Directory of Statistical Management of Pyschriatic disorders) is going to make a diagnosis of Aspergers much harder next year as the Government want to move away from state control of the UK health service and privatise it. This can only be bad news for would-be parents

[Researcher]

Hi Robert

Yes you could still participate in my research - with your experience and background in medicine I am happy that your diagnosis is sound! Thank you for asking and making sure!

I'm kind of in two minds regarding the DSM5 proposals - especially since there is so much similarity in high functioning ASD and AS.

I suppose as research gets brooder and deepens our understanding of ASD/AS the diagnostic criteria may change.

Personally, I am in support of more effective ways of understanding and diagnosing all forms of ASD/AS - the worry is that the DSM will make it harder for some people with AS to be recognised as having any form of ASD. Saying that, DSM5 seems to be in such turmoil at the moment (already 1 year overdue) I'm guessing there is a lot of pressure from around the world to actually map sure it is an improvement on DSM4 and not a step backwards!

Best wishes

Theresa

[robert7111a]

Hi Theresa, sorry I don't know how to send personal messages but I have participated in your research

 

Best wishes

[trekster]

Hi Theresa, sorry I don't know how to send personal messages but I have participated in your research

 

Best wishes

 

Click on the persons user name, go to their profile, then send the message,

or remember their user name, go to your user control panel, type in their user name and write then send the message,

[robert7111a]

ok thanks

[Researcher]

Thanks everyone for being so honest and helpful with my research!

Theresa

[trekster]

ok thanks

 

Anytime, that method should work on most php boards as well if this one is php? (mods?)

[Aeolienne]

Back before I was diagnosed with AS I was arrested at a peaceful sit-down protest against an arms fair. My recollection is that we were told that the police would have to warn us a certain number of time before making an arrest, which I took to mean being warned individually as opposed to collectively. I was held in a police cell with the other protestors (one of them Angie Zelter of Ploughshares Four fame) then released on bail. At the magistrates' court a month later I chose to plead guilty to the charge of obstructing the public highway, and forked out a £50 fine and £50 court costs. However some of the other protestors pleaded not guilty and got away with a conditional discharge.

[Researcher]

Hi Aeolienne

This must have been a pretty awful experience. It seems to be quite a common occurrence that people get involved with the police and then find out afterwards they have ASD. Perhaps there should be some way of reconsidering a person's conviction in light of a late diagnosis of ASD? It can have big consequences for people's lives and as you've pointed out - the police are not always that clear about what constitutes an offence and why - especially for someone with ASD who may misinterpret what is said.

If you are happy to participate in my research I am really interested to hear your story. It is via my online website (www.research-asd.org.uk). I haven't had a female participant yet so that would add an interesting perspective to it!

It's no problem if you don't want to but I'd be grateful for your feedback on the website anyway.

Thank you very much!

Theresa

[Aeolienne]

Hi Aeolienne

This must have been a pretty awful experience. It seems to be quite a common occurrence that people get involved with the police and then find out afterwards they have ASD. Perhaps there should be some way of reconsidering a person's conviction in light of a late diagnosis of ASD? It can have big consequences for people's lives and as you've pointed out - the police are not always that clear about what constitutes an offence and why - especially for someone with ASD who may misinterpret what is said.

At the time of the offence I'm not sure if I'd even heard of AS. That was in September 1998 and I was diagnosed nearly three years later.

[Researcher]

Hi Aeolienne

It seems that in some cases having ASD could be considered as mitigating circumstances - perhaps eventually it may be possible to re-open a case and consider a diagnosis of ASD which was made after a conviction?

Best wishes

Theresa

[Aeolienne]

Hi Aeolienne

It seems that in some cases having ASD could be considered as mitigating circumstances - perhaps eventually it may be possible to re-open a case and consider a diagnosis of ASD which was made after a conviction?

Best wishes

Theresa

Is there much point after all these years? The criminal conviction I got has been spent since 2003; it would only be an issue if I wanted to work in the armaments industry, which obviously I don't.

[Researcher]

Good point!

[Researcher]

Just to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who showed an interest in and took part in my research! It is now done - I'm currently writing up and the winner of the mp3 player has been announced on the front page of the research website using their unique identifier.

Best wishes to you all

Theresa