Naming preferred school in Part 4 of statement

[asdinit]

Thanks to the fabulous advice received on here I think we are near enough ready for tomorrow's meeting with the LA about M's proposed statement....... but as always, there is another question:

 

I'm certain M should be in (at the very least) an ASD unit. LA have already said MS however I think we have plenty of ammo to sway that decision if not tomorrow, at appeal. Now what happens if 1 - the unit we want M to go to is full; am I right in thinking they have to 'create' a place for him, 2 - we change our minds on the unit we name before it is finalised (there is another school I found yesterday that is MS with a unit attached but it is in another borough and we are hoping to see it next week), 3 - LA say it has to be MS, we go to appeal with our preference for school x in Part 4 but by the time of the appeal we decide we want school y or even that M isn't coping AT ALL and should be specialised and therefore in school z.

 

My ultimate aim in all this is that he is placed in a unit now so that if it doesn't work, we have time for reviews to change him to specialised before moving up to yr7 and if necessary as Sally44 has said, independent at that point if we have to.

 

Thanks as ever x

[bed32]

You have the right to ask for any maintained school on part 4 of the statement and in general they have to give you your choice - with a couple of provisos.

 

If a school is so far away as require (expensive) transport arrangements then they can argue that that is not an efficient use of resources. Also if the school is so full that taking an additional pupil will have a serious impact on the other pupils in the school then they can also refuse. In practice I think that if the school says the special needs unit is full - and can give a reasonable argument - then you are unlikely to be able to win that one either in negotiations or on appeal.

 

As far as changing your mind is concerned - that should be fine up until the statement is finalised. Probably best to tell the LA the schools you are thinking about - they may even have genuinely useful advice. Even after the statement is finalised you can always appeal (within 2 months) to change the school named in part 4 even if you originally agreed. LA ought to respect that and concede without it going to SENDDIST

 

In terms of looking for an ASD unit - I think you are taking the right approach in trying ASD units before secondary - provided that you are happy with the unit, but if you move him now you probably won't want to move again before the transition to secondary school. You could also take the approach to trying one year within MS with the additional support you can get on the statement and see how that works, if that wasn;t satisfactory you could still move him to a unit for the last couple of years of primary after his first annual review.

[asdinit]

You could also take the approach to trying one year within MS with the additional support you can get on the statement and see how that works, if that wasn;t satisfactory you could still move him to a unit for the last couple of years of primary after his first annual review.

 

Hmmm good point there

[Sally44]

Firstly it is likely that any Unit would already be full, simply because there are not enough places for the number of children that need those places.

 

Tribunal panels can and do Order LA special schools and Autism Units to make additional places for pupils that need to be in such a placement. So if the LA Unit really is the one you think meets his needs, and there is no other suitable alternative that you or the LA could consider, then stick with that in your Appeal.

 

What you can say on Monday is that you believe that your son should be in an autism unit "such as" and name the one you know about - which I presume you have visited?? See what the LA response to that is, and if they say it is full, ask them to write to the Governors to ask them if an additional place could be made. [Many LAs do keep an 'emergency' placement available in Units and Special Schools for those parents that go to Appeal seeking an independent or out of county placement because they have been told their choice of LA placement is full - but don't say that on Monday!]. The LA keep this emergency placement available, so they can use it if the parental choice is going to cost them more than making another place.

 

So on the day of the Appeal , or just before the actual Appeal date, don't be surprised if the LA suddenly 'find' another place at that Unit, or another Unit or school or special school. Remember this is all about money, and the LA will always try to get the cheapest option.] So you need to ask the LA EP which placement she recommends so that you can go and visit it. And if she still keeps saying mainstream, ask her to put that in writing - but go yourself to any/every possible placement the LA could offer which would be over and above what is currently being provided at his mainstream primary school - so every Unit and special school that has children with an ASD on the role [that is why I told you to get the LA list of maintained, none maintained, approved and independent school list from them, so you can see what is currently being used by your LA].

 

On Monday you can say that you are still in the process of looking at other placements so that you are sure about what kind of placements are available and which can meet your childs needs. [by law, the LA does not have to provide the 'best' placement or education for any child, just a satisfactory one that meets their needs. So your argument should never be that xxxxx school is the "best". It should be that ONLY that school can meet your child's "NEEDS"].

 

At any point of the Appeal process the LA can decide to offer a placement anywhere they feel would give them a better chance of winning [ie. proving that their choice of placement is a better use of resources than the parental choice].

 

And up to a certain point within the Appeal process you can seek an amendment to your Appeal to include part 4 as part of your Appeal, or to amend part 4. I lodged my appeal in September 2010, we had two cancelled appeals, and I amended the appeal to include part 4 around July 2011. If you amended your Appeal to include Part 4 you would have to put in a "request for changes" form [which I can tell you about in a separate post if and when you need that info]. That request goes before a Judge who decides whether to agree your request or not, which is decided on law. And that request, and the decision by the Judge is sent to you and the LA. The LA can counter appeal that decision with their argument as to why you should not be allowed to amend Part 4. That is put before a Judge who decides whether to find in favour of parents or LA - all very interesting stuff.

 

We said we wanted to include part 4 in the Appeal because we now had additional information that we felt proved that his current placement had broken down and was unable to meet his needs and therefore we were seeking a placement at xxxxxx which is an independent ASD specific school for children with speech and communication difficulties due to a diagnosis of Aspergers or autistic spectrum disorder. The Judge agreed to amend the Appeal. The LA appealed that request/amendment. The Judge did not find in favour of the LA [who simply said that we had never previously expressed a preference for that placement] and agreed to include Part 4 in the Appeal.

 

So on Monday I would be very specific about the amendments to the Statement, and discuss the "type" of placement you think he needs and ask them about any places in the Unit, and ask the Inclusion Officer what the EP's advice is on placement for your child.

 

Make notes of everything and type up the minutes of the meeting and send a copy to the LA Inclusion Officer. So it is detailed exactly what was discussed and agreed. Don't answer any questions you feel could prejudice your appeal. If you are unsure, just say that you don't feel you can answer that question at this time because you need to get more information to make an informed decision. Don't be put on the stop. Because the LA will be fishing for information from you.

 

When you are appealing the placement you do need to prove that the one you are seeking is the ONLY one that can meet your child's needs. You can include part 4 from the start and seek an autism unit placement [are you sure about their peer group, their academic level, are they taught in the unit or do they attempt to feed them across to mainstream - because by the sound of it your son needs to be kept and taught in a small group/low arousal environment and not be fed across to mainstream - so do check if lessons are held within the Unit, what qualifications does the teaching staff have etc.

 

If, before you lodge your appeal, the LA has already told you there are no places, you could seek a placement at another school, and use the fact that the LA have said they have no room as part of your evidence that ONLY your parental choice can now meet his needs because he is not suitable for mainstream, and your LA has confirmed in writing that the Unit is full.

 

But don't be surprised if just before the actual Tribunal, or even on the day, the LA turn up and announce that they have now decided to make a further placement for your son.

 

If that does happen, I would still recommend that you go through the Tribunal process [and to have requested as part of your appeal that the Panel word the Statement so that it is legally binding and is not vague or ambiguous]. Because if you agree to call of the Appeal, due to getting the placement you are happy with, you can still find that the Statement wording has so many holes in it that you might as well flush it down the toilet. So do go through with the Tribunal, to get the Statement specific, and for experience on the process itself, because you may have to go to another Tribunal for transfer year.

[Sally44]

Whatever the outcome of an Appeal, if the placement, or the provision within the Statement does not work you can appeal again after an Annual Review, or you can call an emergency review and appeal after the outcome of that.

[Sally44]

By law the LA is supposed to go with the parental choice of school UNLESS it is not a good use of resources [ie. a nearer suitable school], or is to the detriment of the other pupils [not a similar peer group].

 

But, if you were told the Unit was ful, and you appealed for an out of county placement, and at the Tribunal the LA suddenly said they could find another place within the unit, the Panel then have to decide on the merits of the two places, and whether both can meet all his needs. If you are happy with either placement, then that is okay. But IF there is something one can provide, which the other cannot, then you need to highlight that as part of your appeal.

 

For example, the Unit maybe nearer and a better use of the LA resources, BUT they feed children across to mainstream classes, which is not suitable for your child - as per your evidence that he mainly taught 1:1 and has to be withdrawn from the class - so is not actually accessing mainstream at all. So if the out of county placement does teach within the Unit, and does have a similar peer group, and does have teachers with an additional qualification for teaching children with an ASD and the Unit does not - then you argue that ONLY that school meets his needs for a consistant low arousal environment and small group teaching that he NEEDS. So you could still win the out of country placement IF the Tribunal Panel find in your favour.

[Kazzen161]

I'm certain M should be in (at the very least) an ASD unit. LA have already said MS however I think we have plenty of ammo to sway that decision if not tomorrow, at appeal. Now what happens if 1 - the unit we want M to go to is full; am I right in thinking they have to 'create' a place for him, 2 - we change our minds on the unit we name before it is finalised (there is another school I found yesterday that is MS with a unit attached but it is in another borough and we are hoping to see it next week), 3 - LA say it has to be MS, we go to appeal with our preference for school x in Part 4 but by the time of the appeal we decide we want school y or even that M isn't coping AT ALL and should be specialised and therefore in school z.

 

Thanks as ever x

 

The LA does not have to provide an extra space, though they may if it is not to the detriment of the school/other pupils. As most units only take a few children, it is unlikely that it would not be detrimental. Many parents will be asking for the unit to be named, so the LA cannot open up places indefinitely. If the unit is in another LA, then your LA has no power over them to make them offer a place. A tribunal may be able to force either LA to open up another space.

 

Your case statement for the tribunal will need to be quite specific to the unit/school named if it is to be strong, so the sooner you can make a decision the better.

[Sally44]

This is a hard one because although units are small, they do take and they can be ordered to make an extra place by SEND.

 

And I know that my LA holds back "an emergency place" for that very purpose - to be able to offer a place to parents that are seeking an independent placement on the grounds that the unit is full. So if my LA does it, i'm sure others do too. And I know this because the parent partnership told me there was an 'emergency place', and when I did the freedom of information act search it was on record via emails that they did have such a place they kept available.

 

You could use the fact that the unit is full [if you have that in writing from the LA and the school governors] that ONLY your choice of independent school can meet your child's needs. But then don't be surprised if the LA turn up at the Appeal and offer you a place in the unit - simply because it is cheaper than paying independent school fees, and suddenly making another place is no longer to the detriment of the other pupils!

 

The argument that an extra place would be detrimental to other pupils tends to be used by the LA's to their benefit, although that may be true and another pupils would not benefit those in the unit. But when that argument is no longer a benefit to them ie. there is a more expensive option now on the table, it is amazing how those places become available.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Sally44

[Sally44]

When I wanted to move my son to another primary school that was classed as "enhanced resource" I was told that they have filled all the ER places within mainstream and that to add another child would be detrimental to those children.

 

However the current situation was detrimental to my own son by him remaining in a school that could not meet his needs.

 

We were in the process of appealing the final Statement where I was asking for an ER placement and the LA had refused, saying it was full, detriment to other pupils etc.

 

So I used my parental choice to secure a mainstream place at that primary school and moved him there as a mainstream pupil to that school. Because it was more than 3 miles away, I had to provide transport.

 

Having moved him to the new ER school they become responsibile to meet his SEN under his Statement.

 

The provision detailed in his Statement was already over and above what an ER placement would provide. And it was obvious from day one that he is not mainstream. So he effectively was receiving the equivalent and more of an ER placement even without that placement type being named on his Statement.

 

[so, although the Statement would have been fulfilled in both a mainstream primary school and in this mainstream enhanced resource primary school, the reason for my seeking the move to the ER school was because his mainstream primary had no understanding of autism at all. The enhanced resource school said their staff had alot of experience in teaching children with an ASD, which they did due to the high numbers of children with an ASD on the school role.

 

However I later found out that although they had experience, they had no further ASD specific teaching qualifications qualifications or additional training relating to ASDs on top of their typical teaching qualification and neither did any of the LA's specialist teaching services staff. This meant that they really didn't have an awareness of how his numerous diagnoses affected him and often had a "one size fits all" approach to supports, which was not working for my son. They also had no understanding of Dyslexia/Dyscalculia, Dyspraxia or Sensory Processing Disorder and they had no other child within the school with his combination of difficulties.]

 

At the appeal we won and he was offered an ER placement which was specified on his Statement and the LA provided transport. [However, even at that school he did not cope and we ended up at tribunal again].

 

The LA were very unhappy with what I did. But needs must. He was not coping and they were not listening to me. By moving him, and them having to place him ER, it proved that I was right about the high needs he had.

 

So remember that that is why a Statement being specific is SO important, because sometimes placements are just names eg. "enhanced resource". If the Statement details what the child is going to receive, they must receive it.

 

The LA did threaten me at a meeting attended by the PP by saying that if I moved him to this school they would keep him in a mainstream only class and not provide the ER level of provision. But they simply could not do that because they had to fulfill the Statement, which is legally binding on the LA. the SENCO admitted that they had to fulfill the Statement, so I was not worried. So it was an empty threat - but a threat the LA had no problem giving me!

 

But the point is whatever the placement, the school has to meet his needs, and fulfill the Statement.

 

At the time I moved him I had had the Autism Advisory Teacher and the EP tell me verbally that he needed to be in the Autism Unit [which is part of that same ER school]. The LA denied those conversations had taken place, and those professionals would not put that opinion in writing to me - so I had no evidence of what I had been told. Some years later I did find that that had been their advice to me and the LA because it was in their file notes and emails which I uncovered when I did the FOI act search. And it was the LA Inclusion Officer that told them to keep their mouths zipped. That same Inclusion Officer even wrote to everyone involved and told them that he had worded certain aspects of the Statement in such a way that it was not legally binding on the LA. And he was proud of this achievement! At the time I had no idea that this was going on behind the scenes and I was banging my head against a brick wall with professionals denying they had given me advice about support/provision and the type of placement my son needed. I was made to feel like I was going mad and imaging things!

 

I felt that by moving him as a mainstream pupil to this ER school with an autism unit, that they would sort out where he should be placed, and that although they were telling me that it was full, children do move to other schools and other areas, so I thought if he was there that he would be first in line if any place became available.

 

As it turned out he received the ER support immediately due to his Statement. The school put on record that the Unit was not suitable and that he could regress in there [again I found that through the FOI act search], so when the ER placement broke down they could not offer me the Unit because they had already said it was not suitable. So they tied themselves up in knots. That allowed me to seek the immediate move to an independent school, which we achieved.

 

I do understand what Kazzen is saying - but that it going with the assumption that schools and LAs are not playing the system to their benefit - when they often are. It all boils down to costs. When money becomes involved, it is surprising how having an extra place is no longer to the detriment of those children.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Sally44

[Sally44]

After he had been at that school for a few months, and after other parents had also moved their children to that school due to them having an ASD, the school re-organised their classes and made two mainstream classes which were almost half ASD children.

 

And obviously there is also the point that if I had lost the appeal, although my son would have remained at that school and in that class I would have continued to be responsible for providing the transport.

[Sally44]

How did the meeting go???

[Sally44]

I do understand that schools have budgets, and class sizes that they have to adhere to. But when you are told your child cannot be included because it is to the detriment of the others - that basically means they are happy for your child to fall by the wayside. No parent can accept that.

 

I recently received a letter from the Head of our LA EP service asking my opinion about provision and therapeutic input for children with an ASD within the LA's mainstream schools. I said, quite plainly, that the SEN proces is quite clear [which it is], and is a system that schools, LAs and parents have to work with [which is true], and that the LA were well aware of their duties and responsibilities under the SEN Code of Practice and Education Act [which they are] and that until the LA provides the level of provision and therapies that meet the needs of capable children who are not coping mainstream that the outcome will be that those parents will go to Tribunal and will win independent school places on the grounds that the LA mainstream schools cannot meet their child's needs [which is what currently happens]. And that that will continue until the LA decides to provide an ASD specific special secondary school similar to the ASD specific Independent Schools as part of their mainstream maintained placement options [which they don't do]. I said I could only assume that that is because there is no financial benefit to the LA to provide this kind of placement.

[asdinit]

We came, We saw, We conquered .......well almost! Actually we didn't conquer but it's a start. I'll post tomorrow with the outcome. I managed to trigger a fatigue flare (linked to arthritis) which has knocked me out for a couple of days x

 

(null)

[JeanneA]

Hi AS looking forward to hearing from you today. :-)

[asdinit]

I'm going to post the update on a new thread for this one

[asdinit]

Link for the update to the above http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/28115-la-meeting-after-proposed-statement-issued/