Self funding year 6

[mousytrap]

Just wondering if anyone's been forced into self funding for a year or so, to sort out a complete stressful debarcle, and if so, were there any issues trying to get the LEA to take over again as from year 7?

 

Thanks

mousy

 

PS The desired year 6 school is secondary as well.

[Sally44]

The fact is, that in these times, no LA is going to want to pay anything additional.

 

Why is the LA not agreeing to fund the placement?

 

I did have a period of about a year where I had to provide transport to my son's school. The LA refused to fund it because they said I had moved him to that school as my parental choice. That was true. But i'd moved him because he was not coping at his previous primary school. The school I moved him to was still maintained, and was classed as 'enhanced resource' because it had a high number of ASD children in he school, and also an autism unit. I figured that his difficulties would be best understood there. And I knew that eventhough they had told me they had no 'enhanced resource' places available, that if he attended as a mainstream pupil [and enhanced resource pupils were still mainstream], that the LA were legally obliged to fulfill his Statement.

 

And by moving him to that primary school [which was the only one within our LA that had additional experience of ASD], I thought that 'when' an enhanced resource place became available, the school would automatically give it to my son if he already attended that school.

 

We had to go to tribunal about the Statement, and as part of that process he LA agreed to provide the transport.

 

But that year did worry me because it forced us to take on extra costs ourselves. We had to buy a second car, and I had to leave my daughter at home, to make her own way to school, because my son's school was the other side of the city. She was only 7 at the time and I was appalled at the behaviour of the LA over that, because he plainly did need to go to that school. And in the end, even that school could not meet his needs, and he is now at an independent ASD school.

 

It also caused a certain Inclusion Officer to take a huge dislike to me, and that person caused alot of problems and did alot of illegal things because I think he felt I had undermined him. This caused a pervasive attitude of other people within the LA who assumed that his description of me [a pushy mum who 'wants' what her son does not need], prevailed. I also discovered he had ignored and hidden expert advice which said my son should be placed in the autism unit. I found that he had altered those experts wording and also circulated an email to everyone involved within the LA and its EP and Specialist Teaching services tha he had worded the Statement in such a way that they were not legally obliged to provide it. So I spent years trying to get provision into place and every time the LA could dodge it because of the wording. And he did that deliberately. And what I cannot forgive is that the effect of his appalling behaviour was on an 8 year old boy with SEN.

 

I think we need a little more information from you. But IMO I think if the LA is not agreeing to fund this placement, you need to go to a SEND Tribunal, because if you fund it yourself for a year, you could find the LA still disagree to continue funding it. The SEN appeal procedures may be in a state of change by then, and you would have to go through that process, which takes 4-6 months in itself. So I would get it sorted now.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Sally44

[mousytrap]

The school is independent. We went for a residential place at tribuinal and lost. Not enough proof of educational need for residential. Now have the possibility of getting a day place I believe. We are assuming we will have to either go to tribunal or set the wheels in motion to do so for year 7 anyway.

[bed32]

I think once you start educating at your own expense you make getting back into LA-funded SEN provision very difficult. I am not sure whether they have an obligation to go through the same transition planning with children that are not LA funded

 

If you can afford to consider a year of private education you can afford to get expert legal advice - I would certainly seek a professional opinion on this before taking any action.

 

We have had similar thoughts about our son, but we think it is a high risk strategy. If we pay for an independent school (from Y5) and he gets on well tthere then there is no way we would want to take the risk of having to transfer him back to mainstream at Y7. Hard though it is to say, a poor Y5 & 6 in mainstream will only strengthen our hand for seeking an independent placement at Y7 (or even earlier), once we take him out of MS then it is very hard to demonstrate that he can't cope.

[Kazzen161]

Another thing that can happen is that the LA can drag out the appeals process as long as possible, as for each week/month/term they delay it, they are saving themselves lots of money (as you have to pay each term in advance) and you can't claim the fees back.

 

As someone said, the longer they are out of mainstream, the harder it gets to prove that they would not cope with mainstream.

 

The LA will also be well aware that once he is the independent school, you are likely to ask for it to be changed to a residential placement at some stage and that the school is likely to support you in that appeal.

[mousytrap]

Would involve extra mortgage of about 65000... A serious commitment, but then the stability of our whole family is at stake... OH is in a really bad way about things and won't go on antidepressants...

[Sally44]

You say you lost at your last tribunal. When was that.

 

And how have things gone where he was placed [i presume still mainstream maintained]. Is he making progress?

 

You will need to prove that he has not made progress since the last tribunal, that his needs have not been met and cannot be met within the school or LA without them having to buy it in. That your parental choice of school is the ONLY one that can meet his needs.

 

Do you have that evidence via school reports, IEPs, assessments that progress has not been made [and that is academic, social, emotional, behavioural, sensory, social communication, speech and language].

 

It is much easier to get an independent day placement than residential.

 

I've got my own son's first AR in his independent placement next week, and although he is doing well there and is happy to attend, his mental health and OCD is off the scale at the moment. So at some point [if not this AR, maybe the next], we maybe seeking for him to go residential during the week and come home at the weekend. That would be for his and our benefit, because we are only just clutching onto our own sanity.

 

When you were seeking residential last time, did you have social services on board, or a psychiatrists report?

 

Is your parental choice of school within daily travelling distance by taxi?

Edited June 16, 2012 by Sally44

[bed32]

Sounds like a very difficult situation - what sort of school is he in now?

 

If it weren't for your OH then it would seem to be better to hang on in there and have another go at the transition to Y7 - that process should kick off in about 6 months time and no other route via SENDIST is likely to get a result significantly faster

 

If you lost the tribunal last time then they clearly thought that the placement was adequate, so there is no saying that presenting the same case for day placement would have been more successful. You need to consider why you lost and how to improve your case, or your presentation, for next time. Were you represented during the process and are you happy with the job they did?

 

I think you case next time will be stronger from his current placement than having moved him - unless perhaps you can show that the present placement has broken down so funding him privately is the only alternative. One good thing - with fees at that level they clearly aren't sustainable so the LA can't wash their hands of him all together.

 

To take the self-funding route you would have to do so with the understanding that there is no certainly that he could continue at that school in Y7 and you would have to consider the strong possibility that he would have to go back into the maintained sector for Y7 and you would need to appeal again from there towards the end of Y7 when you had sufficient evidence that they placement wasn't working.

[Sally44]

What kind of independent school are you thinking of, because a remortgage of £6500 would not cover my sons school fees.

[mousytrap]

You say you lost at your last tribunal. When was that.

 

Last December. We spoke about it at the time.

 

And how have things gone where he was placed [i presume still mainstream maintained]. Is he making progress?

 

He is making academic progress, but he is in maintained EBD school, getting regularly bullied (occasionally by the Head), shouted at by staff, and having to travel 40 mins or so each way by taxi for the pleasure. That's when he gets in it. Since last October I've had to drive all that way to collect him 10 times, deliver him 5 times (when he said he would go in if I took him) and excludes another 8 times he point blank refused to go (two of those days being directly related to the shouting incidents). We (parents) are being blamed for passing our negativity on to him.

 

Do you have that evidence via school reports, IEPs, assessments that progress has not been made [and that is academic, social, emotional, behavioural, sensory, social communication, speech and language].

 

It is difficult because they still haven't provided the sensory assessment the tribunal said, even though they've had months, also the SALT is allegedly only starting to happen shortly. Over 5 months they've had. Academically we haven't had any reports, but have been given the grades at the AR.

 

I've got my own son's first AR in his independent placement next week, and although he is doing well there and is happy to attend, his mental health and OCD is off the scale at the moment. So at some point [if not this AR, maybe the next], we maybe seeking for him to go residential during the week and come home at the weekend. That would be for his and our benefit, because we are only just clutching onto our own sanity.

 

I took our legal rep and EP to ours, but my OH was unable to cope with going.

 

When you were seeking residential last time, did you have social services on board, or a psychiatrists report?

 

No, but we have a suitable psychiatrist in mind prior to our next tribunal. We won't make that mistake again.

 

Is your parental choice of school within daily travelling distance by taxi?

 

It is about 25 mins, so closer than where he is now.

[mousytrap]

What kind of independent school are you thinking of, because a remortgage of £6500 would not cover my sons school fees.

 

There was an extra zero.

[mousytrap]

You need to consider why you lost and how to improve your case, or your presentation, for next time. Were you represented during the process and are you happy with the job they did?

 

Yes, pretty happy, although she is juggling too many cases probably. I need to be checking and double checking that things are done. One or two things that we missed last time due to too many cooks will not be overlooked this time.

 

To take the self-funding route you would have to do so with the understanding that there is no certainly that he could continue at that school in Y7 and you would have to consider the strong possibility that he would have to go back into the maintained sector for Y7 and you would need to appeal again from there towards the end of Y7 when you had sufficient evidence that they placement wasn't working.

 

Several possible Y7 options were discussed, but a number of them were further away than the current school (not a good option for my diesel budget), and they were a mixture of EBD ("if he doesn't improve his behaviour") and mainstream with AS units (which he probably wouldn't cope with). They seemed to be trying to put us off two of the latter, which are closest to us, and I got the impression maybe they were short of places in this area. Legal rep seems to think if they try and name an EBD they will not win at tribunal.

[Sally44]

Okay, if he is at an EBD school write to the school and ask them how many teachers have got an additional qualification for autism on top of their teaching qualification.

Ask them what specific ASD learning approaches such as TEACCH they use.

Ask them how many children in the school, and in his class have a diagnosis of an ASD [or any other diagnosis he has eg. how many children have a diagnosis of a sensory processing disorder].

Ask what he schools yearly budget for EP, SALT and OT is.

Ask what funding his current Statement draws [in terms of £0's]

 

 

When you get the answers from the school, send the same questions to the Head of the Specialist Teaching Services about how many of their advisory teachers have an additional qualificatiton for teaching children with and ASD.

 

Write to the Head of the OT services [usually Community OT services] and ask them if they fund pure Sensory Integration Therapy, and how many of their OT's have completed all the Sensory Integration Modules, and how many OTs are going into mainstream schools to deliver 1:1 therapy, and if any OT is currently working with children in the current ESB school or if anyone has seen, assessed, or worked with your son.

 

What the above is trying to prove is that the school is not full of similar peers. That the LA does not have anyone qualified have anyone qualified that could meet that need, or train up anyone in school. And that the NHS does not fund Sensory Integration Therapy.

 

You have got to prove that this school is not suitable because it is not ASD specific. You have got to have reports that state his 'behaviour' is due to his diagnosis of an ASD and therefore he needs specific therapy tailored to that population of children.

 

You can argue the fact that he has made some academic progress is proof that he is capable. But socially, emotionally, and within the environment [due to sensory processing and integration issues] he is not making progress, he is deteriorating and have a list of all the days he refuses school, and all the times he has to be collected.

 

Personally if you can afford the private school fees, I would get he best independent reports and legal representation you can get. And I would keep him where he is for the momentt, until the Tribunal, because you probably need him to deteriorate further and be out of school before you have a good chance of winning.

 

Sometimes you have to wait and let it fail to prove that the current placement has broken down. If it is irrepairable the Tribunal Panel will not recommend a child is placed at a school they are refusing. If he is not refusing, they could say the school could take further steps to meet this needs where he is.

 

My Independent SALT told me that the Panel will not place a child in a school they are refusing to attend. And she was right. Their decision said that the evidence was that my son would not agree to return to his former school and that the placement had broken down.

[bed32]

Just read your threads from around the time of the tribunal. It is worrying that the EP couldn't put up a good enough case to prevent him being sent to an EBD school - we may need to be making similar arguments in a few months time. I just don't see EBD and ASD mixing (I was having that very discussion over lunch with my sister who works at a SEN school).

 

Another option is to try to find another maintained school just for Yr 6. The problem being that there just doesn't seem to be good provision for bright ASD children in KS2.

[mousytrap]

Just read your threads from around the time of the tribunal. It is worrying that the EP couldn't put up a good enough case to prevent him being sent to an EBD school - we may need to be making similar arguments in a few months time. I just don't see EBD and ASD mixing (I was having that very discussion over lunch with my sister who works at a SEN school).

 

Another option is to try to find another maintained school just for Yr 6. The problem being that there just doesn't seem to be good provision for bright ASD children in KS2.

 

No, they don't mix. He just gets them winding him up all the time, waiting to see him explode. There are constant verbal and physical digs, many of which aren't picked up on by the staff (or that they are in denial about). He's forever getting sly hits, kicks, shoves and work of his (such as art) ruined.

 

The EBD "thou shalt do it and get on with it" ethos seems to have no bends or accommodations for a rigid thinking aspie.

 

You are right about provisions for bright ASD children. Where are they??? The only two KS2 schools mentioned to us by the LEA were both EBD. We're beginning to wish we'd gone for one of the others, but then it may well have been just as bad.

[bed32]

No, they don't mix. He just gets them winding him up all the time, waiting to see him explode. There are constant verbal and physical digs, many of which aren't picked up on by the staff (or that they are in denial about). He's forever getting sly hits, kicks, shoves and work of his (such as art) ruined.

 

The EBD "thou shalt do it and get on with it" ethos seems to have no bends or accommodations for a rigid thinking aspie.

 

You are right about provisions for bright ASD children. Where are they??? The only two KS2 schools mentioned to us by the LEA were both EBD. We're beginning to wish we'd gone for one of the others, but then it may well have been just as bad.

I find that shocking, but perhaps not surprising. Our LA say they are setting up an EBD/HFA school and want us to consider it!!! If I were you I would certainly be trying to get my child out of there asap.

 

There is a danger of "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" here - as you are more advanced than we but you might consider

• You need to think seriously about why you lost the appeal. It seems an unsuitable school so are you really happy that both EP and solicitor represented your case well enough? Surely the EP should have been saying that there was no way he should belong with EBD children, or that the ethos of the school was inappropriate. If you want to try for the independent school again you need to consider whether you wouldn't be better with, say, a different EP. Our independent EP wrote a very good report, but we have already decided to use a different one for any tribunal as we don't think the first EP will put the case in the right way.
  
• I would certainly consider asking for him to be transfered back into mainstream, or to another maintained special school (even if out of borough) - that is a much easier tribunal to win. I might even consider taking him out of school all together - either getting him signed off sick or "home schooling".
  
• Has none of this come up during the observations done by any of the professionals? One of the most useful pieces of evidence we got was from someone from CAMHS who simply observed our son in school for a couple of hours and documented what she saw.
  
• Elementary really - but make sure you document every occurence. Take each incident up with school on and get a response from them, preferably in writing. Then take them to the head under the title of "bullying". If they don't respond positively then escalate - maybe even call the police in?
  

Are there any other ASD children in the school? If so what are their experiences?

[Sally44]

We were fortunate that the NHS Clinical Psychologisy service we used was ASD specific and they did put alot of things in writing to us. They could not state what kind of placement he needed, but they did confirm in writing that:

 

His behaviour was typical of a child not coping in school.

That his Jekyl and Hyde behaviour [different in home as opposed to school] was typical of HFA children who were trying to conform in school, but were not coping.

That I should only use gentle encouragement to get him into school.

That everyone should listen when he refused to comply and not 'encourage' him to continue as that would overwhelm him. Because he often refused when he was overwhelmed anyway.

That he had chronic anxiety and that he needed supports and structures similar to the PDA population of children to give him choice and options to manage his anxiety, rather than sticking to a rigid structure or routine that he could not comply with.

 

The day before our Tribunal they send me a letter confirming he had an Anxiety Disorder. That clinched it as far as the school SENCO saying he was making progress - because he wasn't, if he now had an additiona Anxiety Disorder. [but I had had to writte to them in quite precise terms telling them that the Statementing process required that each and every need was identified in section 2, so that it could be provided for in section 3; and that as Anxiety was a medical condition, they needed to confirm that in writing for that need to be met.]

 

The school my son was at was enhanced resource for ASD children. So we had to prove that it was not suitably qualified to understand his complex ASD presentation and that his needs were so significant and complex that that school could not meet his educational and therapy needs. You have to highlight that for your own son. That his current school is NOT suitable and is not able to meet his needs.

 

Are there many other children in the school with a diagnosis of an ASD or AS?

Edited June 19, 2012 by Sally44

[mousytrap]

The day before our Tribunal they send me a letter confirming he had an Anxiety Disorder. That clinched it as far as the school SENCO saying he was making progress - because he wasn't, if he now had an additiona Anxiety Disorder. [but I had had to writte to them in quite precise terms telling them that the Statementing process required that each and every need was identified in section 2, so that it could be provided for in section 3; and that as Anxiety was a medical condition, they needed to confirm that in writing for that need to be met.]

 

I have just had a phone call from someone at the school we want, who has confirmed that the person who will be doing our report concerning the anxiety and PDA pulls no punches and tells it like it is. He writes 20 page reports which are very effective at tribunals. Wish we'd known about him last time.

 

So we had to prove that it was not suitably qualified to understand his complex ASD presentation and that his needs were so significant and complex that that school could not meet his educational and therapy needs. You have to highlight that for your own son. That his current school is NOT suitable and is not able to meet his needs.

 

That would be only if they try to name another EBD school for year 7 though. His current school only goes to year 6 so he's out of there next July whatever happens. If they go for mainstream plus AS unit, we'll need a completely different case anyway.

 

Are there many other children in the school with a diagnosis of an ASD or AS?

 

They are always fairly cagey and confusing when I try to ask about that, muddling AS with ASD and including those with ASD "tendencies" but no diagnosis. I doubt it's more than 25pc, though they'd like us to think there's more. We are led to believe that there are currently 3 in his Y6 class, one of which does Y7 maths. Our son is Y5 (doing Y6 work) so the rest of them will be moving on shortly and he'll have no peer group left. Of course, it does mean that quite a few of the bullies will be moving on... (thankfully)

[mousytrap]

• Elementary really - but make sure you document every occurence. Take each incident up with school on and get a response from them, preferably in writing. Then take them to the head under the title of "bullying". If they don't respond positively then escalate - maybe even call the police in?
  

 

For months we kept a diary of the incidents. I made a list before the tribunal and read some of it out on the day. I later provided our paed with copies and he's forwarded copies to the LEA's EP, who he knows quite well.

 

As for the school... I started getting them to put things in writing each time, but there were way too many. They complain that by the time they hear about things they can't do all that much about them, and that we are being negative and not writing down the good things our son has said about school.... Hahaha... Still waiting for him to say something... You could say home/school relations are strained...

 

Are there any other ASD children in the school? If so what are their experiences?

 

I wish I knew... One never gets to chat to the other parents when everyone's spread around the county and travelling about by taxis...