Your advice/opinions please.

[Suze]

After a bad week (see previous help/head thread).....things got worse ...won,t go into the meetings, tears...governors, or endless phone calls to LEA, NAS, parent partnership,and Autism team(my heroes ). Any way...my son has been having several playground issues, these have resulted in him having angry/ aggressive out bursts where he kicks/ hits out.His LSA now believes that he does this to get attention..the kicking etc.As after these he goes and talks and calms down with a member of staff. Does anyone elses child do angry outbursts as a way of getting attention, does this seem a worthy explanation. My personal thought was the outbursts came from social games and problems name calling and teasing which he mentions all the time to me. Your advice/opinion would be much appreciated. Thanks Suzex.

[lil_me]

Could be doing it for a zillion reasons.

 

Children with ASD's do tend to lash out or whatever they can to get someones attention as they don't have the skills to communicate this verbally. My son although he has a large vocab will hit, punch, kick, pull hair (his fav at the mo) or whatever it takes to get attention, he doesn't mean to be nasty, and tends to do it then say sorry as thats what they've told him to do. We are told as parents to ignore it and they stop but children do not ignore it and the instant reaction may be what he's looking for.

 

Maybe giving him a 'safe haven' a room or somewhere he can go when he starts getting stressed might help. For times when people are calling him names or he just feels stressed etc, the ASD team are trying to sort one out for my son at school at the minute.

 

Hope you get to the bottom of it.

Edited September 30, 2005 by lil_me

[Brook]

Hi Suze,

 

I would say these outbursts are not due to seeking attention. In my opinion they are more likely due to the stresses of the playground, ie.. crowds of kids, games that your son probably cant get the hang of, lots of noise, in general a total sensory overload, hence, your sons reactions to them.

 

When my son was in school, he would be alone on the playground spinning and flapping his arms (stimming) I think this was his way of drowning out the unwanted stimuli and his way of coping with it, your sons way is different and because it is having an effect on the other kids, then it gets noticed but unfortunately he is getting the blame.

My son too got teased but, I really dont think he realised it at the time, thankfully.

 

Brook

[Helen]

Suze,

 

All I can say is that when my son has lashed out in school there has always been a valid reason for his behaviour.

my son has been having several playground issues, these have resulted in him having angry/ aggressive out bursts where he kicks/ hits out.His LSA now believes that he does this to get attention

The LSA ought to keep her mouth shut and get on with the job, she ought to keep her personal opinions to herself.

[phasmid]

Hi Suze,

 

My personal thought was the outbursts came from social games and problems name calling and teasing which he mentions all the time to me. Your advice/opinion would be much appreciated.

 

Yes, this could well be the cause. It was certainly the case with Phas jr and with other AS children I have worked with. Children are frightened of anything 'different' to their idea of 'normal'. Being totally honest, our kids will be percieved by their peers as 'different'. That is soon picked up and their peers tend to react in two ways:

 

1. They get very protective (mainly the girls in my experience).

2. Sly and devious and know just which buttons to push to get a reaction (normally a physical one - normally the boys).

 

An ASD aware school ought to be well aware of this and be watching for it. The playground is full to the rafters of unspoken rules and lore that ASD children cannot ever fathom.

 

These 'outbursts' as lil_me points out could be caused by a zillion other reasons too. What they ARE NOT is a means of 'attention seeking'! Any school that see's them this way is sadly deluding themselves and, whatsmore, letting down the child in their care. What these outbursts are is an inappropriate reaction to the social situation the child is in. They cannot explain that it is upsetting them, they simply know it is. What they lack is the social skills to stop the taunting (percived or real). That is where the school should be stepping in. Before the child 'blows'. An ASD aware playground supervisor (teacher or mid-day) ought to be able to spot this sort of thing a mile off and stopping it.

 

In my school TA's go out with the child and have their break after - the teachers can cope for 15 minutes at the start of the lesson and the children concerned get a chance to be out with their peers having the chance to learn some of the social skills that NT kids just 'absorb'. If playtime is a problem it should be addressed in just the same way that an 'academic' problem would be - through help and support. TRAINED help and support.

[Flora]

Just about every time my son has lashed out is due to a confusion of communication, if he doesn't understand what's going on and the motives of other kids he tends to panic and lash out.

 

It could be that or anything, but something worth looking at considering it's happening in the playground (which is usually confusing anyway!).

 

<'>

 

Lauren

[Suze]

Thankyou guys, the autism team go in the week after next. My son has again kicked out at this child. Iam completely exasperated , his LSA was observing through the window??

[Hectorshouse]

Hi Suze, I have been there with this one as well, and you have already had some very sound advice. This is NOT attention seeking, this is a reaction to a situation and as Phas has said without the communication skills of an NT child this can often be the only way of reacting. T has had many many many of these 'outbursts' or 'non-compliant' episodes that result in a physical lash out. The TA should be trained to understand the triad of impairments which would enable her to defuse the situation or atleast try to resolve it in a way that your child can understand and learn from, also allowing your child the opportunity to try and express what or why it is they feel that this is the only way of reacting, this is where social skills and social stories should be used, perhaps for both yours and the child being lashed out at.

 

T had many children who would enjoy the wind up process and watch him explode, normally it would be T that got in trouble because he had lashed out, whilst the child or children who had set the whole process in motion looked on without being reprimanded.

 

I hope the autism team can help bring your TA up to speed.

HHxx

[phasmid]

I would suggest that the TA ought not be observing through the window for a start. They ought to be out there on the playground with him. At this point in time even if they are not trained their sheer presence might be enough of a detterent to the other children.

 

There is a danger here of your son being excluded. Clearly there are steps the school ought to be taking NOW in order to prevent this from happening - but they are not taking them. They are NOT dealing with this situation in anything like an appropriate manner.

 

I would suggest you take in a letter first thing Monday. Suggest that the school arrange a TA to be on the playground to supervise your son (or at the very least follow him about from a distance). They ought to be prepared to step in as soon as there is even a hint of trouble. Explain the difficulties he has reading non-verbal cues and so on. Put the ball firmly in their court. Make it plain to them that you expect them to acknowledge and re-act to the fact that he has a socio-communication disorder that makes playtimes difficult for him to cope with. Make it clear that their current policy of dealing only with the aftermath of any problems is not acceptable to you and that you expect steps are taken forthwith to ensure your son's well-being is addressed. A copy to the head, the LEA out-reach team and the chair of governors.

 

This means you have TOLD them there is a problem AND, more importantly, offered them a solution to it. Should there be any more incidents of the type you describe and they have not taken any steps to address them (your solution or theirs) then they have failed in their duty of care.

 

They need to do something! Hope that helps.

[Suze]

It does Phasmid, it helps so much thankyou. I would have really floundered this week without your advice, and the advice of others <'>

[Hectorshouse]

There is a danger here of your son being excluded. Clearly there are steps the school ought to be taking NOW in order to prevent this from happening - but they are not taking them. They are NOT dealing with this situation in anything like an appropriate manner.

 

I would suggest you take in a letter first thing Monday. Suggest that the school arrange a TA to be on the playground to supervise your son (or at the very least follow him about from a distance). They ought to be prepared to step in as soon as there is even a hint of trouble. Explain the difficulties he has reading non-verbal cues and so on. Put the ball firmly in their court. Make it plain to them that you expect them to acknowledge and re-act to the fact that he has a socio-communication disorder that makes playtimes difficult for him to cope with. Make it clear that their current policy of dealing only with the aftermath of any problems is not acceptable to you and that you expect steps are taken forthwith to ensure your son's well-being is addressed. A copy to the head, the LEA out-reach team and the chair of governors.

 

This means you have TOLD them there is a problem AND, more importantly, offered them a solution to it. Should there be any more incidents of the type you describe and they have not taken any steps to address them (your solution or theirs) then they have failed in their duty of care.

I bow to you Phasmid ...

 

Absolutely spot on!!

 

I'm saving that response for future reference.

 

HHxx

[UltraMum]

J was in trouble for hitting at the start of term: in his case he was being 'annoyed' by some of the other children - for 'annoyed' read, in all probability, 'teased'.

[phasmid]

I sat back and watched an incident unfold. A child with AS in a queue. He was prodded and poked by two or three others. He tried his hardest to ignore them at first. Then, very, very politely asked them to stop. They didn't. You can probably tell me how it went over the next 20 seconds or so. It was at this point that someone else went to step in, laying the blame on the AS child. I couldn't blame them, from their point of view he had been pushing and threatening to throw punches.

 

That was the point I stepped in and pulled the miscreants out of the queue and sent them to the back. I was also able to ensure that the child had time to calm himself before the lesson started and inform the teacher he might be a bit hostile to 'X' and 'Y' because of THEIR actions. They had provoked the whole thing, they knew what they were doing. It was quite deliberate.

 

The difference between me and the other person? I suppose I was aware this was a potential flashpoint and therefore needed to be 'policed'. I guess that is where being ASD aware makes the difference. I have had 15 yrs worth of personal training. The potential for certain situations to be cause for watching can be explained in 15 minutes - if the person/people concerned will listen and act.

 

In this case a letter will do exactly that, explain it to them. They cannot say they were not aware of the potential for problems after reading it. Once aware, they HAVE to act on it. If they don't and further incidents occur - they are to blame!

[Guest flutter]

but when we work with other peeps kid we are suppused to use the

ABC system when there are issues, are we not

i tell my son if you say things your sister not like she will wallup you!

All kids usually hit for some reason, " he had my toy" he said i was stupid"

So then you ask what happened, and if other around who saw are old enough, you ask them what they saw. You try and see a whole picture.

Am i being too idealisitic???

cos i wonder if they would behave this way if they did not know this child can thump if provoked?

sorry i ramble, having a funny day

C x

[phasmid]

Yes there are always procedures to follow when dealing with incidents where ine child hurts another. What should happen is that all involved are spoken to apart from each other and an investigation is carried out. The problem is, if you take the scenario above, 2-3 children saying the AS child did the pushing and was about to throw a punch + an adult who would back this up! The fact that the AS child would stand his ground and swear blindly that they started on him, not the other way round would more than likely still see them in trouble on balance of 'evidence' presented.

 

However, if the school were ASD aware the whole thing could have been nipped in the bud at once, simply by having 1-1 supervision on hand to watch out for these type of incidents. The situation doesn't arise - no need for the follow up. This was in my school. Shortly after a number of staff went on an ASD awareness course (in their own time on a Saturday - I took them ). This is why we now have 1-1 TAs out there in the playground.

 

I know it will work - as I've seen it work.

[annie]

Something else that we tried to do anytime an incident happened was to ask specific questions ie. not just did you hit X?, Alex would never have denied hitting somebody, but we always had to ask did X do anything to you before you hit him?. What did he do? What did he say? and so on. He 16 now and we still have to ask specific questions to get the full picture of anything (thankfully not him hitting anybody anymore).

 

Teachers that we've ever come into contact with have never understood the importance of being specific. It's always been far easier to blame the one with the 'naughty' label.

 

It's back to having knowledge and experience of ASD's again .

 

Annie

XX

[Zemanski]

Com was actually excluded for this very type of playground incident before he was diagnosed.

 

A kid who bullied him throughout his primary school was mimicking him verbally, quietly in the corner of the playground, behind some raised vegetable beds where Com had gone to get away from previous taunting.

The lunch time supervisor should have known to investigate if she saw the two of them together but the first thing she saw was Com pushing the boy.

She automatically gave Com the school punishment, time off golden time, and Com was immediately in meltdown, screaming at her that it was the other boy's fault. She refused to listen to him because he was shouting and turned her back so he did a full power punch to the kidneys.

 

Assault of this sort is obviously very serious and at the time, although we knew he had social communication problems we did not know he was autistic (just beginning to suspect it) so no ASD specific strategies or awareness were there for him.

 

Com was diagnosed about 2 months later and the LEA agreed to assess. we insisted that he had playground supervision in his statement from the very beginning and, after he came back from the suspension and hit the same dinner supervisor again, the LEA didn't argue (one of the very few things they agreed on actually)

 

these things can get very out of hand - deal with them as early as you can.

 

And record and report all bullying, even minor things can build up.

If you record incidents you can see patterns developing which can be very helpful (where and when are as important as who so you can help teachers spot exactly what the trigger points are - it could be when they all go off to wash hands before lunch, or at a particular lesson changeover, or when the non-contact cover teacher is in ...).

 

you also have evidence which can be very useful - last year, now in high school, Com was once again set up and then threatened with exclusion when he reacted by hitting one of the kids.

The school were absolutely determined that Com should be excluded until I produced a printout of the outlook calendar I keep with every incident I know of detailed with when and to whom it was reported. We had been reporting these boys for almost 2 years and this was the first time Com had reacted aggressively - the incidents included serious physical assault as well as taunting, deliberately invading space, etc.

With that evidence to hand all we needed was to say 'if you decide to exclude him we will, of course, be taking the matter further' - the incidents don't happen any more and two of the three have since been permanently excluded

 

 

 

Zemanski

[Canopus]

After weeks on end of bullying and victimisation at a residential school with the staff doing sod all about it, I finally couldn't take the stress any longer and lashed out violently against another kid who was punched me for no reason in order to teach him not to mess with me again. His face was badly cut and needed several stitches. Because I had used a weapon the matter ended up in the hands of the police. The policeman who arrested me was absolutely furious and told me that I had committed actual bodily harm that was a very serious offence and would almost certainly be prosecuted because he claimed that I had acted in retaliation rather than defence. I was detained in a police cell overnight and told that I could end up in front of a judge in court and be sentenced to 10 years in prison. I was only 13 at the time and it was a terrifying experience. Thankfully I was let off with a caution as my school urged the other kid's parents and their solicitor to back down and not prosecute me.

 

I told my parents that I no longer wanted to continue at the residential school after this event but my mother refused to withdraw me.

[annie]

Canopus <'>

 

Your post leaves me speechless ............ but angry

 

Annie

<'>

[Guest flutter]

i think my mistake with the bullying was that i never complained at every count ,

and i let the school manage something really bad in their own way, when i kew it wouldnt work. AND they used the fact that hubs ( big man) was cross as the way of getting truth

i now not sure how i would deal with things

[Zemanski]

if bullying is really bad and trying to deal with it is just not working you can contact the education welfare officer. They can be very supportive and fairly influential sometimes.

 

there are also several support groups for bullying who are very good and will sometimes provide advocacy - look up bullying, UK only pages, in google - kidscape was the one that helped us.

 

Canopus, I really feel for you about your school experiences, you seem to have lived from one crisis to the next with little or no emotional support or understanding.

This is exactly what we are trying to avoid our kids going through <'>

 

Zemanski

[linss]

hi,suze i've been going through much the same problems with school as you. After an incident of hitting out etc how your school reprimand your son?

I'm trying to work out whether the school my son is at is dealing with him in the most effective way(he's 6 almost 7)

 

At present he collects minutes as a result of bad behaviour. For refusing to work or go to assembly for example, they give him warning then start counting and for an act of aggression it will automatically be 5 minutes. This is then taken of his golden time or he often will have to have it as a detention during his lunchtime play.If theres still minutes left they are carried on to the next day.

If anyone can give me some advice here i'd really appreciate it!!!

[Zemanski]

Linss, this might work with an NT who's not on edge with anxiety and hyper-sensitivities but it doesn't work for most of ours

 

and to sanction him by taking time off his breaks is counter productive - first he probably hates breaks and is pleased to get out of them so it's not punishment and he'll pretty soon hit on the idea that if he does something wrong he gets to go to a nice quiet space indoors, second, he needs more social interaction than others, not less (it needs to be managed/supported but never taken away as a punishment) and third, his self-esteem must be plummeting if he's constantly having sanctions which will drive his anxiety up and make him even less cooperative

 

he needs incentives to achieve small steps - 'achievable targets' they are called in school. a sticker chart - may be a sticker for each time he sits down to his work willingly regardless of how long he actually continues (the next step might be to continue for a short time ....), time out to do something he likes if he's managed to cooperate for a while - he might get some time with a friend in the library to play a quiet game if he's managed to hold his temper in the playground for a few minutes.

 

also what are they doing to actually make these things easier for him? - are they making sure he gets to sit at the end of the row in assemblies so he has an escape route if he needs it (assemblies can get very noisy and can be pretty unpredictable), or someone nearby to reassure him and quietly explain things? If he is sat in the middle of all those jostling fidgeting bodies it's no wonder he's not coping.

 

and does he have someone in the playground who can spot when his anxiety is rising or when he can't manage some social situation or the evolving rules of a game and can get him out or help him mend the situation before he blows? Is he being taught how to play with others, in small groups or 1-1?

 

and his disinterest may not actually be disinterest - he may not be connecting with the task because he doesn't fully understand the point or what is required of him. Some extra detail could be all he needs to get on with things or possibly the task needs to be refocused - I used to teach a kid who was obsessed with my little pony, when everyone else was doing 'I was walking down the street when suddenly ....', he was doing 'the pony was galloping across the field when suddenly....' and it made a huge difference to what he was able to do.

 

you have to be positive and proactive with ASD children, negative and reactive strategies like these sanctions just help build the anxiety and make things worse.

 

Zemanski