Steve_colour-se7en Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Hello everyone , Here is a news story that I feel you should read, please give feedback on this I will be very interested on your views. THE increasing number of autistic children in mainstream education is leading to rising classroom indiscipline, a new report has found. Academics at Glasgow University were commissioned by the Scottish Executive to assess the implementation of its mainstreaming policy. http://news.scotsman.com/education.cfm?id=63402006 Steve.. I think the boy means well but he is distinctly inclined to be inattentive...... Tutor of Winston Churchill to Lord Randolph Churchill, Winston's father Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phasmid Report post Posted January 15, 2006 My thoughts...well this: It (the report) also found that fewer than half of Scotland's councils had carried out the necessary preparatory work in order to implement the policy effectively. and this: One council official told researchers that the worst part of the mainstreaming policy was the "insufficient recognition of the challenge facing schools in dealing with behavioural issues". Simply tells us what a lot of us know already, the funding to give suppoert when it is needed is not there or, as is the case in England (I know the sysytem is a bit different in Scotland) statements are not forthcomming when they need to be or are to ambiguous to be useful when they do get written. Put in the support, provide the funding for it and train staff to be able to cope with the problems and the 'challenge' can be met head on! Dodge it, underfund it and provide inadequate training and it will continue to be 'a problem'. But whose fault is that? Not ours as parents (or our childrens either)! No, the powers that be need to realise that they are at fault here. Provide the funding and eductae our kids. They deserve the best education they can get, as does any child. Then they have the chance to succeed in life, make something of and for themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 15, 2006 absolute tosh! Yes, Ben and other children with ASD can be disruptive, but there are also a hundred and one social changes over the past 10 years or so, that are also having a massive impact... classroom sizes, family structure, poverty, and - for my money probably the most significant - a general trend towards increased social selfishness. That's not something that just happened, that was a planned political agenda from the 1950's onwards - The nuclear family with little regard for those outside of their own 'unit'... we are now hitting 3rd, 4th, 5th generations of families that have been brought up increasingly to view themselves in isolation, and the impact on community, social infrastucture and social disenfranchisement has been massive - and massively exploited too! How on eartjh are kids expected to behave in school when their whole world view is that everyone outside of their own little clique is a non person? Leaving that (sorry rather 'high horsey' I know) political factor to one side, there's also the facts Phas already mentioned... not the kids being there that's the problem, but the school (and communities) response to that presence. Not directly relevent I know, but if people with AS (for example) are going to 'blamed' for these types of issues, what happens? Do we build new schools that DO meet their needs? Do we create an environmment within the existing schools to meet their needs? Or do we send them to often equally innappropriate SEN units that don't meet their needs? if the latter, we'd better stop closing them! if the former, we'd better find some money to pay for them (increased taxes anyone?). The other option is more social isolation - bottom stream classrooms full of underachievers (regardless of any ACTUAL ability). Anyone else remember them? They worked SO well in the 60's and 70's didn't they!! L&P BD (gee up neddy!!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oracle Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Baddad Well said I 100% agree with everything you have said. If anything children with SEN often tend to have more caring and less selfish parents. You have to be less selfish you realise that pretty darn quickly. One of the reasons that I would not consider putting Matthew back into the system is because I do not want him rubbing shoulders with the 3rd - 4th - and 5th generation of these families. If that sounds dreadful then so be it. Bceause it is the way I feel. Carole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adamsmum Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Well Baddad that just says it all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted January 15, 2006 That's not something that just happened, that was a planned political agenda from the 1950's onwards - The nuclear family with little regard for those outside of their own 'unit'... we are now hitting 3rd, 4th, 5th generations of families that have been brought up increasingly to view themselves in isolation, and the impact on community, social infrastucture and social disenfranchisement has been massive - and massively exploited too! You must have nerve to say this. Are you serious that there was a planned political agenda in the 1950s to shape this country into what it is today? My piece on demographic changes annoyed some people and was criticised as having a political undertone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lorryw Report post Posted January 15, 2006 I cant see for the steam coming out of my ears!! I currently work in what is regarded as the class from hell. Thirty children with every social, emotional and learning difficulty under the sun. But no AS children. The whole education system is a total mess and needs a complete re think, not yet more tinkering at the edges. Huge amounts of funding are wasted and it makes me despair just thinking about it. Loraine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OPooh Report post Posted January 15, 2006 What tosh. I work in a school and see that the disruptive badly behaved kids are the ones with no respect - NOT ASD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
call me jaded Report post Posted January 15, 2006 (edited) The full report is here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/89188/0021334.pdf Yes there are more children with autism. Yes children with SEN are more likely to be excluded (would love to find the ASD exclusion rate). Yes the reasons for permanent exclusion are overwhelmingly linked to disruptive behaviour. Meet the needs of SEN childrean and behaviour will improve. Interestingly the report doesn't find that the number of special school places are declining, rather the opposite. Edited January 15, 2006 by call me jaded Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phasmid Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Jaded, you probably won't find figures for children and exclusions specific to ASDs (I haven't yet) but you will find figures on exclusion rates for those with SEN via Gvot statistics website. Head for education and then follow links for pupils. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
call me jaded Report post Posted January 15, 2006 For just a second I thought you had the figures for ASD exclusions, phasmid, and a frisson of excitement ran through me before I realised you hadn't. What a sad muppet I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 15, 2006 You must have nerve to say this. Are you serious that there was a planned political agenda in the 1950s to shape this country into what it is today? My piece on demographic changes annoyed some people and was criticised as having a political undertone. Hi Canopus, didn't actually read your bit on demographics so can't comment, but certainly the 'nuclear family' was a specific and planned agenda of social engineering. Quite specifically, for the Rich to get Richer at the expense of an underclass, it was necessary to create conditions where the underclass were 'below' consideration... It's a fact of the Thatcher Government's tenure that the concept of privatisation was pushed to the absolute limits. Everyone bought their own home, and believed that they automatically lifted in status to 'middle class'. While that was going on, the divide between the richest and poorest in this country rose to the highest point for OVER 200 years. You'd think that subsequent governments would have addressed that, wouldn't you - especially a Labour government... Haven't looked recently, but the last time I looked at official statistics the answer was 'have they b*****y'!! I'm not banging a drum, honestly, but all of the above is as true as the Health Service being created as a means of supplying fit enough males to fight in any wars. Bevan didn't SELL it as that, but that was the underlying imperative, and all other considerations were secondary bonuses! L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oracle Report post Posted January 15, 2006 What a sad muppet I am Not sad just eternally hopeful and when the hope has gone then it's time to worry for sure. And if we ever do find these figures then I'd like to bet we would all resemble someone who just had 10,000 volts shot through em Carole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 15, 2006 and a frisson of excitement ran through me Haven't had one of those for ages, but from what I can remember it was very nice Sorry Steve, for boosting your thread, both for 'High horsing' and horsing about... I'll just get me coat... L&P BD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helenl53 Report post Posted January 15, 2006 CMJ - I got the figures from our LEA last year of the number of children who had been excluded who had a SEN and at what stage - it was a reall eye opener. Although it did not specify the type of need, it did not take too many brains to estimate how many would have had ASD's/ADHD and other neurobiological disorders. Overall the exclusion rate was 7 out of every 10 had a SEN! Oh by the way - this did not include 'illegal exclusions' The figures will be out again in the next few months - I think if we really push - we can get the info- my lea claimed not to have the number detailed to that degree - cr*p said I - data protection quoted they - because they claimed that to give me the information would have necessitated giving information about individuals. I think it is a load of poo myself - trouble is - I need the whole country to ask their LEA - otherwise I am just seen to be a pain in the butt. HelenL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UltraMum Report post Posted January 15, 2006 For just a second I thought you had the figures for ASD exclusions, phasmid, and a frisson of excitement ran through me before I realised you hadn't. What a sad muppet I am call me jaded - have another frisson - is this what you were after? Had to insert this as an image as it wouldn't copy from the pdf file. The reference is below and this can be found on p220 of the electronic file - p192 of the paper version. The file is available from http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/11/83/39/04118339.pdf Green, H., McGinnity, A., Meltzer, H., Ford, T. and Goodman, R. (2005) Mental Health Of Children And Young People In Great Britain, 2004. Palgrave Macmillan, Basingstoke. p195 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
call me jaded Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Well thanks Mother Eve. I've frissoned and it's entirely down to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Well thanks Mother Eve. I've frissoned and it's entirely down to you. Bad dog, naughty dog - back in your basket! Wuff!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve_colour-se7en Report post Posted January 15, 2006 (edited) Hello everyone, Thank you all for your thoughts, I would like to share mine with you on this- Most parents it would seem are all too well aware that, all funding that should be in place in order to give teacher's and LSA's support with regards to Autistic Spectrum Disorders (ASD') is simply just not there, these very teachers and LSA's are also aware of this. However it would seem the only people not aware of this are the very people with which the book stops, the governing bodies and departments who all too often only step in as a last resort or token jesture. Personally I feel funding and support should be readily available in order to give, teachers and LSA's a complete and basic understanding and awareness. Parents of a child or children with an ASD will apprieciate and understand, when I state that for most with autism, what a teacher or LSA may through no fault of there own see as disruptive behaviour is more than likely possible to be a sensory intergration difficulty. So until this is better understood, by the people who spend the most time (second to family) with our children these sensory issues will always remain to be misconstrude as being disruptive behaviour. I hope that soon, it would be possible for LSA's and teacher's to attend courses, not unlike the N.A.S.Early Bird Plus program- which will enable them to gain a good basic understanding and awareness enabling maximum potential for all our children, as they all deserve and are entitled to the best education possible. Please for those who dont know allow me to leave you with this information. A person/pupil with Aspergers/Autism will not set out to make a teacher's life more difficult, they do not even try to manipulate or scheme. More often than not the behaviour displayed could be sensory issues, confusing situations that may leave the individual disoriented and even frightend, the very virtue of an ASD disability is egosentric, with difficulties being extreme when reading the reactions of most people. Steve.. I think the boy means well but he is distinctly inclined to be inattentive...... Tutor of Winston Churchill to Lord Randolph Churchill, Winston's father Edited January 15, 2006 by Steve_colour-se7en Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
call me jaded Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Bad joke (you were warned). What dog can say its own name? One called Bark! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddad Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Bad joke (you were warned). What dog can say its own name? One called Bark! That's wruff!! I used to have a talking cat... got locked out once, and i looked through the letter box and said 'let me in' tiddles said : Me? 'ow? I can always go one worse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
call me jaded Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Steve Sorry for 'mucking about' on your thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UltraMum Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Well thanks Mother Eve. I've frissoned and it's entirely down to you. Hope you enjoyed it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve_colour-se7en Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Hello call me jaded, Thank you, no need to worry. Steve.. I think the boy means well but he is distinctly inclined to be inattentive...... Tutor of Winston Churchill to Lord Randolph Churchill, Winston's father Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zemanski Report post Posted January 15, 2006 (edited) Action against autism is the biomeds at all costs brigade, aren't they? - using the difficulties our children have in school to justify a call for biomedical treatments but not actually for the type of education and support our children need on top of whatever else we do for them. com is in his 3rd year of high school In Y7 he was well supported by an excellent LSA - his behaviour was impeccable In Y8 they took away a third of his support and replaced the one brilliant LSA with 7 or 8 untrained staff - within 2 weeks his behaviour had become disruptive, even after a return to full time support it continued to spiral out of control and he ended up excluded, his behaviour was aggressive, destructive and completely unpredictable (he was, to all intents and purposes, unteachable in that environment) In Y9 they had a good kick up the backside and he now has no more than 3 ASC trained LSAs, he has time off timetable for ASC and other support and some of his lessons have been adapted - guess what? He's an exemplary student again! Support our children in the right way, put them in an environment that suits their learning needs and give them people around them with understanding and knowledge and they are not disruptive (or at least not unmanageably so - I know many more teenagers with no hint of problems to contend with who are far more disruptive than any of the ASC kids I know in Com's school) put a bit of effort and money into SEN in general and things might be a whole lot easier for both staff and kids in schools. Zemanski Edited January 15, 2006 by Zemanski Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UltraMum Report post Posted January 15, 2006 Hello everyone, Thank you all for your thoughts, I would like to share mine with you on this- Most parents it would seem are all too well aware that, all funding that should be in place in order to give teacher's and LSA's support with regards to Autistic Spectrum Disorders (ASD') is simply just not there, these very teachers and LSA's are also aware of this. However it would seem the only people not aware of this are the very people with which the book stops, the governing bodies and departments who all too often only step in as a last resort or token jesture. Hi Steve Please don't blame governing bodies - we get what we're given from the LEA who gets given it from the government. The SEN formula is based on the % of free school meals in the school (very basically) - the report I've referenced shows clearly that this does not hold true for ASD's , although there is a correlation with other types of SEN - this puts our children at a real disadvantage as the money doesn't follow the diagnosis. My son's school have 7 (10 if you count those who will be diagnosed soon ...) children with ASD out of 200 children - that's 5% of the school role (and doesn't include any other diagnoses of SEN at the school who receive input) yet the school only has 1% on free school meals - big big discrepancy there ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zemanski Report post Posted January 16, 2006 governing bodies are not panels of experts and are often unaware that these problems are occurring - they only know what they are told unless they are prepared to spend many extra hours voluntarily finding out, and it is rare that the struggles of one or two children in a school are brought to their attention the governing body has been very supportive of Com, once the issues were brought to their attention, and his current package is partly down to the fact that they were prepared to mount a full investigation after our complaints. The responsibility is with the LEAs who are too focused on budget to be bothered with children who, ostensibly, are achieving; and the government which is trying it's hardest to relegate SEN to a back burner with policies that do not support individual learning needs or provide enough cash to the system to do so. only a few years ago the SENco post was a senior management position but the government didn't like the fact that SENco's had influence (it's expensive) and allowed schools to relegate them - in a primary school where the team is small this doesn't matter so much but in high schools it leaves the SEN department isolated and struggling to influence school policy. did you know that the DFES is funding national policies and strategies (ALS, etc) to support children who are just below average to help bring the stats up but there are no policies to support SEN children in this way at all because however much you put into them most SEN children will not achieve average grades? - it isn't cost effective! Money and time and energy are wasted fighting a system that stands against our children most of the time. Zemanski Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiley Report post Posted January 16, 2006 Hello everyone, Parents of a child or children with an ASD will apprieciate and understand, when I state that for most with autism, what a teacher or LSA may through no fault of there own see as disruptive behaviour is more than likely possible to be a sensory intergration difficulty. So until this is better understood, by the people who spend the most time (second to family) with our children these sensory issues will always remain to be misconstrude as being disruptive behaviour. I hope that soon, it would be possible for LSA's and teacher's to attend courses, not unlike the N.A.S.Early Bird Plus program- which will enable them to gain a good basic understanding and awareness enabling maximum potential for all our children, as they all deserve and are entitled to the best education possible. Please for those who dont know allow me to leave you with this information. A person/pupil with Aspergers/Autism will not set out to make a teacher's life more difficult, they do not even try to manipulate or scheme. More often than not the behaviour displayed could be sensory issues, confusing situations that may leave the individual disoriented and even frightend, the very virtue of an ASD disability is egosentric, with difficulties being extreme when reading the reactions of most people. Steve.. Support our children in the right way, put them in an environment that suits their learning needs and give them people around them with understanding and knowledge and they are not disruptive (or at least not unmanageably so - I know many more teenagers with no hint of problems to contend with who are far more disruptive than any of the ASC kids I know in Com's school) put a bit of effort and money into SEN in general and things might be a whole lot easier for both staff and kids in schools. Zemanski These were the bits that jumped out at me. My son has huge problems at school at the moment - anyone without an understanding of AS would think he was the child from hell......... BUT, change the lighting, reduce the noise around him, structure his day and you will have the best behaved child in the school. What we need is for teachers/LSA/SENco's to be trained in ASD's BEFORE the child comes into thier classroom. It will save alot of heartache all round. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Corcaigh Report post Posted January 16, 2006 absolute tosh! Yes, Ben and other children with ASD can be disruptive, but there are also a hundred and one social changes over the past 10 years or so, that are also having a massive impact... classroom sizes, family structure, poverty, and - for my money probably the most significant - a general trend towards increased social selfishness. That's not something that just happened, that was a planned political agenda from the 1950's onwards - The nuclear family with little regard for those outside of their own 'unit'... we are now hitting 3rd, 4th, 5th generations of families that have been brought up increasingly to view themselves in isolation, and the impact on community, social infrastucture and social disenfranchisement has been massive - and massively exploited too! How on eartjh are kids expected to behave in school when their whole world view is that everyone outside of their own little clique is a non person? Leaving that (sorry rather 'high horsey' I know) political factor to one side, there's also the facts Phas already mentioned... not the kids being there that's the problem, but the school (and communities) response to that presence. Not directly relevent I know, but if people with AS (for example) are going to 'blamed' for these types of issues, what happens? Do we build new schools that DO meet their needs? Do we create an environmment within the existing schools to meet their needs? Or do we send them to often equally innappropriate SEN units that don't meet their needs? if the latter, we'd better stop closing them! if the former, we'd better find some money to pay for them (increased taxes anyone?). The other option is more social isolation - bottom stream classrooms full of underachievers (regardless of any ACTUAL ability). Anyone else remember them? They worked SO well in the 60's and 70's didn't they!! L&P BD (gee up neddy!!) Well, baddad, I must write a note to agree completely with your analysis above (even though I am late). In a class of 30+ pupils it's very easy to blame the difference if the class doesn't work. Some politicians never stopped and wondered why in many countries in Europe there are laws that don't allow more than 20 pupils per class. Mind you, the situation it's the same bot in UK and Ireland, i can relate so much with what you just described above. Schools are messy, disorganised and not professionally managed. Their aim is to level and standardise into mediocrity, not to promote uniqueness and acceptance of differences. No wonder that, when you don't conform with the flock, you become the problem. Martina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zemanski Report post Posted January 16, 2006 sensory issues are very important in getting the balance right for our kids - they should be doing a full sensory assessment for every ASC kid as matter of course. when sensory issues are dealt with the kids have much more time, attention and energy to pay to actually learning to deal with the world. one of the main reasons that Com struggled so badly in Y8 was that he went from one LSA to many, and the most helpful change for him this year is that he has one main LSA consistently with 2 spares who also know him well. The reason why this one strategy is so effective? - Com has prosopagnosia and cannot see faces at all (literally- his mind does not process faces and he sees a blur) so he needs someone with him who he knows all the time to stabilise the environment for him. Can you imagine what the sea of faceless uniformed teenagers, acting up and showing off in a high school dining room must be like to face without someone he can identify nearby? We knew Com needed consistency of people and had difficulty recognising people but until last year we had no idea it was a sensory issue, and a disability in its own right. Zemanski Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted January 16, 2006 Schools are messy, disorganised and not professionally managed. Their aim is to level and standardise into mediocrity, not to promote uniqueness and acceptance of differences. No wonder that, when you don't conform with the flock, you become the problem. I have always held the suspicion that the real reason for state schools was not to provide education but to instil discipline, obedience, and conformity - with an emphasis on conformity. Kids that don't fit in with the system and their classmates get bullied and blamed as troublemakers all the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlp Report post Posted January 16, 2006 (edited) sensory issues are very important in getting the balance right for our kids - they should be doing a full sensory assessment for every ASC kid as matter of course. when sensory issues are dealt with the kids have much more time, attention and energy to pay to actually learning to deal with the world. one of the main reasons that Com struggled so badly in Y8 was that he went from one LSA to many, and the most helpful change for him this year is that he has one main LSA consistently with 2 spares who also know him well. The reason why this one strategy is so effective? - Com has prosopagnosia and cannot see faces at all (literally- his mind does not process faces and he sees a blur) so he needs someone with him who he knows all the time to stabilise the environment for him. Can you imagine what the sea of faceless uniformed teenagers, acting up and showing off in a high school dining room must be like to face without someone he can identify nearby? We knew Com needed consistency of people and had difficulty recognising people but until last year we had no idea it was a sensory issue, and a disability in its own right. Zemanski Hi Zemanski I'm interested in prosopagnosia - how did you discover you son had this - it interests me as I've read a little bit and it came to mind when my son went to school on own clothes day and didn't recognise any of his class! Also it could just be him getting used to things but he started a new school a week ago but only knows one name. Might have to go and google now! Edited January 16, 2006 by jlp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canopus Report post Posted January 16, 2006 The report said: "Children on the autistic spectrum may exhibit behaviour that is incongruous and challenging, and which severely disrupts teaching and learning. This is very vague and needs further clarification. Kids with AS and ASD sometimes have meltdowns at school when stressed that are capable of severely disrupting the peace and very difficult for staff to tackle. Is this what the author is trying to imply, or are they saying that kids with AS and ASD deliberately go round disrupting lessons? "We are also seeing a backlash from the parents of other children who do not want their children's education to be disrupted," the report said. Some parents are quite intolerant towards kids with AS and ASD and take a dim view of their problems. They blame it on bad parenting and a general lack of manners and discipline. Quite often these parents would like to see kids with AS and ASD punished rather than helped if they have meltdowns at school or refuse to participate in a certain activity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites