aspergers or giftedness

[mrs fussy]

Hi not sure what you will all think about this thread.I was reading an article recently that said that gifted children are often misdiagnosed aspergers. What do you all think about this, i actually agree with the article my son is frighteningly bright, but i am unsure if his quirky little ways are due to this, and wouldnt the fact that your years ahead intellectually make it difficult for you to socialise with your peers, he also thinks he is right most of the time and will often argue this even with his teachers who have up until the present one been very understanding(can i say that his problems have only started this school year) he talks to everyone in the same way and i must say going back to him always being right, he often is right, all this aside he is a very sensitive lad, and notices things that most children his own age wouldnt, often causing him worry, i dont know what do you think can they be mistaken id be interested in your point of view, oh can i add frustrations in school which are described as being part of the aspergers, could it be boredom ? What you think am i talking rubbish Mrs F x

[Bard]

No, I think you are talking a lot of sense. As we all know, the spectrum is very wide. I post a lot about B, but not much about my daughter who is gifted.

She finds most 'intellectual' skills easy, and when she sets her mind to learn something, she absorbs it totally.

She can remember long passages of text if she has heard or read them once, and 'sees' abstract maths as an organic whole in her head. If she isn't interested, then she is indifferent to the point of being oblivious. She revised for her exams by reading everything she had written over the last 2 years once. And nothing else. She's likely to get all A*, and is heading for 5 A levels.

She is currently teaching herself Java for the computer, Japanese and poi.

She is almost always right when she chooses to have an opinion or an answer, and can be obstinate, arrogant and negative when others disagree. When she gets stressed, she gets locked into a conversational circuit where she repeats the same response over and over. Or she has an occasional meltdown. She can also be inflexible in any problem-solving in real life situations! When she gives up on something, or someone, she never returns to them. She has one or two close friends who understand her quirks and cope with them.

She has obssessions that last for years, Pokemon is one of them, Monty Python another.

She also has certain things that have to be done in the same way, or in the same order, or she gets very stressed, like Her mug, Her special plate Her fork.

She is a fantastic teenager, because she applies logic to almost all situations, and so you can explain why something can/can't happen and she will listen calmly and accept what is possible. She is reliable, trustworthy and terrific fun to be with. B's dx changed her attitude to him, and she started to modify her behaviour once she understood what he has control over, and what he hasn't. She now manipulates him like a pro!

Edited July 2, 2007 by Bard

[mrs fussy]

Hi ya Bard thankyou for your reply, excuse me for being dumb, is your daughter aspergers is that what your saying or is she gifted but appears aspergers or is she aspergers/gifted sorry i know im dumb, its just that we are currently on the diagnosis path but are worried that its giftedness and not aspergers at all, its just that the problems they say they have at school as far as outbursts do not happen at home so we are unsure. Can giftedness really be mistaken for aspergers do you think especially if the child is a very strong character like my son.? Mrs F x

[KMC]

mrs fussy

 

Dont they say that there is a little autism in everyone? There is also a train of thought that people who are good at science or music generally have autistic traits. Maybe that's why?

 

 

KC

[mrs fussy]

mrs fussy

 

Dont they say that there is a little autism in everyone? There is also a train of thought that people who are good at science or music generally have autistic traits. Maybe that's why?

KC

Hi sorry i know i am dumb but what are you saying then should it be a aspergers diagnosis then or not? based on this yes the science thing would be my son and maths too in his case, my problem is should we get him diagnosed or not or just hope that his fiture teachers will just accept that he knows more than them about certain subjects, as this one didnt take to kindly too it and somehow he managed to get a long exclusion which im sure she was behind, im just unsure about diagnosis really what do you think

[Bard]

Hi ya Bard thankyou for your reply, excuse me for being dumb, is your daughter aspergers is that what your saying or is she gifted but appears aspergers or is she aspergers/gifted sorry i know im dumb, its just that we are currently on the diagnosis path but are worried that its giftedness and not aspergers at all, its just that the problems they say they have at school as far as outbursts do not happen at home so we are unsure. Can giftedness really be mistaken for aspergers do you think especially if the child is a very strong character like my son.? Mrs F x

 

She's not AS, she is gifted, but she has traits that reflect aspects of the spectrum. She has no social/communication problems, understands figurative and imaginative language, adapts well to changes in circumstances if she chooses to. Her father is very intelligent, but to my mind exhibits even more ASD traits than she does. I've known a lot of very high-powered academics who fit the pattern well, those with a passion for a particular area or subject to the exclusion of other distractions. So, like KMC said, elements but not the whole deal? Maybe that was why B was nearly 9 before we worked out that his particular combination added up to AS. He fitted in with our family just fine, it was, and is, the outside world that causes stress and meltdowns. You are the only person who knows your son well enough to be able to pick out all the tiny details that combine to make him the person he is.

Making a diagnosis is a very delicate and individual thing, it must be, or the dx is no use. Think of trying to match a particular and unique shade of paint, mixing a drop at a time. Some children have a complicated combination of dxs, with different weights or amounts of each element. You can be a science genius and be gifted, or AS, or both. There really isn't an easy answer. Gifted and AS are both a challenge.

Edited July 2, 2007 by Bard

[KMC]

As I said in another topic yesterday

 

Seeking a diagnosis is a personal thing. For me, I told no-one and just learned more about myself and that I needed to work harder and focus on the things I am bad at or have problems with. I also got my IQ and my MBTI. This was purely to learn more about myself and "personality types". Other people use the diagnosis as peace of mind whilst there are others who use it to get assistance or support in one shape or another. whether you should get a diagnosis is purely up to you

 

I dont often get to quote myself :-)

 

With your son, it is up to you as to whether or not you decide to get him diagnosed.

 

Somewhere in these forums, I have also said that I was glad I didnt know that I had AS as a child and that I only got diagnosed as an adult because it meant that I had to work so much harder to learn things that didnt come naturally and that I didnt have anything I could use as a reason or excuse not to achieve.

[mrs fussy]

He fitted in with our family just fine, it was, and is, the outside world that causes stress and meltdowns. You are the only person who knows your son well enough to be able to pick out all the tiny details that combine to make him the person he is.

Yes my son does show quite a few autistic traits but not dont know how to put it, well they are not obvious and dont really cause him that many problems, you know things like... the teacher told the class the other day that they had 10 seconds the other day to get his pe kit on an he was ANNOYED by this as he said this was an impossible task when i say annoyed i mean he didnt react just had a good moan to me about it when he came out of school as it was still bothering him, he often has problems with smells, organisational skills arent good but none of these cause him real problems and well what 7 yr old is organised? but he does have problems controlling his temper and will often retaliate which is his problem really but i mean that doesnt mean you have AS does it, lots of people have a temper, and yes he does struggle keeping freinds although makes them easily as hes very in your face, but if your talking about the periodic table and the atomic weights of the elements you are hardly unlikely to be that popular are you!!! on the playground with 7 yr olds!!! it is really difficult? teachers keepm telling me he is AS friends and family think hes just extremely intelligent, do the teachers you think want a diagnosis of something or other as then it couldnt be put down him not being pushed enough at school as these outbursts only occur their mind you they keep telling me they happen at home too, im going to invite them to come and live with me if they continue ha ha Mrs F x Gosh dont i waffle on!!!

[krystaltps]

I can certainly see what you're saying mrs fussy. But I think with a careful approach to dx, this may not be the case. C was put through many assessments before the ADOS was performed, and it became apparent very early on that he was gifted - this was taken into account every step of the way through the rest of his dx process. He is intellectually gifted, loves maths and science and logic and has a reading age 4 years older than his chronological age. Yet, in the classroom, aside from brief flashes of his intellect, he performs at a level similar to his peers (with the exception of maths). His AS prevents him from reaching his optimum and his poor organisational skills mean that he can be seriously limited in what he can do. This is not to say this will always be the case - his intellect makes it easier for him to develop coping strategies and he can invent some quite ingenious ways to get around some of his problems. I think by the time he reaches the end of secondary school, he will be able to perform at his optimum level.

DS2 (NT) is also classed as gifted, and like Bard's daughter has some AS traits, but he is able to perform at a level suggested by his IQ. He has some language issues (similar to C) and displays some obsessive traits but is the most sociable child I have ever met.

When I compare my two boys - it is the social issues that make the difference. R is happy, confident and is friends with everyone he meets; C is the opposite.

[wishingwell]

My son has aspergers and got his diagnosis when he had just turned 5, his teacher had never had a child in her class that would correct her when she was learning a full class of children. He corrected her speech, and if she informed the class of outdated information or made a mistake he corrected it. In his first year at school every day she complained that he did not know his place and he needed to be taught to keep his information to himself. Fortunately my sister is a teacher and explained to me that by not allowing him to express himself was going to cause him even more problems throughout his school life and that the teachers ways of teaching were unacceptable. I asked for the statement process to begin while I was waiting for his diagnosis to be confirmed. At this time I had never heard of aspergers. During this process it was confirmed that he was years ahead of his class academically, and when he spoke out in class he was right all the time. It was this that his teacher took offense at after all he was only 4 and he had her on her toes daily. I don't wish to call him gifted he just learns with ease and lives for learning. Same teacher used to say he memorized his reading and never praised him for any of the work he done in her class. At the time I hated her for how she had treated him but after the diagnosis she apologized for her ignorance and was the 1st teacher in the school to go on a training course on AS, so I am glad I went on my own intuition. He is very sociable but we are aware of his traits which are more noticable when he is under stress. His teachers have excepted him and his ways, his intelligence had found him acceptance among his peers. He now gives frequent talks to the whole school relating to his favorite topics science, history, general knowledge, loves maths and wins lots of art competitions the teachers do not take offence when he corrects them. His peers are not aware of his AS, his teachers did need to know and so did I. When he was young he was very naive but he is learning new strategies everyday and has a very quirky personality. He has just turned 11 and is going to grammar school in September. I'm very proud of him.

[SarahSH]

Hi Mrs F I know where you're coming from - it's very hard to say what's AS, and what's just your child being his original highly intelligent sensitive self.

 

In some ways, that's what AS is. And I can't help thinking that if my AS dyspraxic son were in a school where there were more absent-minded professor type people, he'd probably do better and what's more stand out less. Square peg in round hole syndrome. But we couldn't seem to find just exactly the square hole he needed, and I spose a big part of it is not being able to adapt very easily. So we did go for a diagnosis and statement. Which has been a mixed blessing, because people assume he's stupider than he is and expect less of him. His helpers do work for him and he lets them. He's unusually perceptive but very very disorganised and not inclined to assert himself and explain his point of view, so people don't realise what a good brain he's got.

 

If it helps - I think it's only worth a diagnosis if it will lever extra help for your son that he needs.

 

Good luck with it all.

 

Sarah

[Karen A]

Hi I attempted to obtain information a few months ago in order to compare the characteristics of gifted children with those of children with AS.On paper the two groups are very similar.A gifted child who does not find friends with similar interests and who is not understood in school-perhaps being expected to fit into a rigid curriculum may be thought to have AS.I think a less experienced or knowledgable professional may find it difficult to decide on a Dx.

If a child is gifted and has AS it is even more complicated. Karen.

[madme]

My DD is classed as gifted and Aspergers. The gifted label came first. She sounds just like your son Wishingwell. We have just had her school reoport which was good but for the obvious comments about her needing to respect others opinions- eg she is 6. Has always loved dinsoaurs and facts. She was reading about Darwin and when they did religious studies upset her teacher by saying that the bible was rubbish as man was not around before disnoaurs challenging her teacher to prove what she was saying. That day she was very upset when she came home. The teacher effectively told her to shut up. I was interested to read Wishingwell that your sister says that this is not the right way to deal with it. I appareciate that it is difficult for teachers. My DD will openly correct the teacher and any children despite us telling her that she shouldnt. She recently corrected the teacher's spelling in a homework assignment by marking it in yellow! I love her quirky personality. She is never boring! While my son also has a high IQ and could be classed as gifted this was never mentioned by his teachers as his adhd has such an impact on his learning in some areas eg maths I joined the NAGC. They have an intersting forum. Some have very clear views that their children are not asd despite describing lots of areas that are clear asd.

[Suze]

Hope no one will be upset or offended by this , but I really struggle with the word "gifted", seems such a weird term, to use.It implies so much but belies the real truth behind being "gifted", because in my sons eyes the "gift" of academic ability means nothing to him, he is what he is, and some days (well most) he struggles with it.

[mrs fussy]

Hope no one will be upset or offended by this , but I really struggle with the word "gifted", seems such a weird term, to use.It implies so much but belies the real truth behind being "gifted", because in my sons eyes the "gift" of academic ability means nothing to him, he is what he is, and some days (well most) he struggles with it.

Im certainly not offended but because this is how it is described to me all the time i dont really know what else to call it , although when in conversation about my son just refer to him as bright, does anyone have a better description? and yes my son struggles with it too. Mrs F x

[krystaltps]

Hope no one will be upset or offended by this , but I really struggle with the word "gifted", seems such a weird term, to use.It implies so much but belies the real truth behind being "gifted", because in my sons eyes the "gift" of academic ability means nothing to him, he is what he is, and some days (well most) he struggles with it.

Hi Suze, I agree with you - "gifted" is not the word of choice. Unfortunately it is still (although outdated) an educational term, or label if you wish, applied to children with an IQ of a certain level. In Scotland, with our new Additional Support for Learning act, there is a move to do away with these labels, however no-one seems to have told the Ed Psychs yet.

[Bard]

I agree that the term can sound smug or exclusive, but that is how able children are now described in educationspeak.

In primary and Secondary, there are enrichment courses available for selected groups of children. They often take the form of a dayschool. The schemes are for ' Gifted and Talented children' and they have to be nominated by their schools. We are also expected to keep track of how we are meeting the needs of such children within school. At one time they were known as able children, and before that they were simply known as clever or intelligent. Give it another year or two, and I'm sure the label will change.

I've always thought of it as a way of ensuring that a child's particular needs are highlighted and met. If you are able and willing to do something your peers can't, that should be celebrated and encouraged. Better that than being bored and resentful because you have to match the norm.

 

wishingwell wrote:

During this process it was confirmed that he was years ahead of his class academically, and when he spoke out in class he was right all the time. It was this that his teacher took offense at after all he was only 4 and he had her on her toes daily. I don't wish to call him gifted he just learns with ease and lives for learning. Same teacher used to say he memorized his reading and never praised him for any of the work he done in her class.

Able children have SEN that need addressing too!

Edited July 4, 2007 by Bard

[Shnoing]

Hi not sure what you will all think about this thread.I was reading an article recently that said that gifted children are often misdiagnosed aspergers. What do you all think about this, ...

 

In my view (being AS myself) the crucial question is "is he able to manipulate (that is: with intent) the others' feelings or emotions to reach his own goals?" If yes, he's gifted, if no, you should have a deeper look into Aspergers'

[mossgrove]

Threads like this on always make me nervous in the same way that films like Rainman do because they perpetuate the idea that having a speciality ability is a characteristic of Autism.

 

There are many Autistic people with wonderful abilities, but there are many that will never excel in a particular area like academia, or piano playing or having an exceptional memory and they are no less valuable as people if that is the case, so when giftedness and autism get discussed as interrelated it makes me jumpy!

 

Sorry if I have offended anyone!

 

 

Simon

[Bard]

Don't panic, most of us know that our children have exceptional and unique gifts.

Some less admirable than others.

B can eat his own bodyweight in marzipan.

[mrs fussy]

There are many Autistic people with wonderful abilities, but there are many that will never excel in a particular area like academia, or piano playing or having an exceptional memory and they are no less valuable as people if that is the case, so when giftedness and autism get discussed as interrelated it makes me jumpy!

 

Sorry if I have offended anyone!

Simon

Hi Simon, i wouldnt want you to think i was implying that all autisic people have special abilities, i started this thread to gain advice about my own son as i am unsure if he does have aspergers as a lot of the traits he has very able children have too and i dont want to give him another label if the one of 'gifted' that he already has is the right one for him, am i making sense? it may be that he does have aspergers too im just very unsure at the moment. Mrs F x

[mum23]

Hi all,

I hope I am not too late to add my piece!!

My brother is anglo Italian, by the age of 4 he could read both English and Italian, by 6 he could fluently read news papers in both langueges. At seven he started school (in Italy they started later than here) he was put in the bottom level as he chose to speck English only for a while!!! then after my parents explaining that he could actualy read and write in both langueges and at a very high level, he was put in a more able class and he luckly found a teacher that liked to challenge my brother with maths problems and scientific stuff. My parents always found it strange that my brother would be so polite and well mannered, for such a young person. By 11 my brother came to England to study he was first placed in the local comp. were he found things a little boring, but was fortunate to find a modern languege teacher that encouraged him to take an O'level Italian which he did at 13, by this time his school was finding it difficult to cope with his behavour as he would constantly inform the teachers when they were wronge and would go into grate detailed explanations. It was decided by one and all that he would be better off at the local grammer school, so he moved and he did do better passing 3 o 'levels early and then taking an other load later passing all with top grades. He then went on to take his A' levels which he passed all with top marks. By this time his odd little ways started to really be noticable to me and my sister, but mum and dad just put it down to him being like a little professor!!! My brother was asked to sit the Oxbridge tests! which he passed with no problems, he was asked to go to Oxford for an interview. Which he did not like at all he found the whole place too grand did not like the whole board questning thing, it made him cross and he left explaining to them he would not like to go their.

He finally found a Uni he could cope with and went their for 2 years but had to leave as he became very stressed, he found work as a lab technician were he was left to get on with things himself and he setteled in ok.

Jump foward a bit now and try to get to my point!!! My brother had lived as he once put it in a very odd place he had always known he was diffrent but had excepted that this was because he was bright, but he had felt so cross and angry about things but had no idea why, this made him start to fiear himself and he turned to drink to suppress these thoughts, luckerly in a way my son was then diagnosed with AS and I had noticed soo many simalarities with my bother. I remember telling my brother that J had been diagnosed with AS so my brother went off to research it. A while later he got back to me and said he know who he was now!! he said after all he had read on Autisum he know that he too had this. On talking to his councilour he was sent to some other peps whom agreed and now he feels so much more in control of his life.

So I think their is a very thin line between being very bright and having some ASD and it can be very hard to tell.

Anna

[lynyona]

I suppose to some sense it can work both ways.I sometimes can see traits in my 18year old ds that are also shown by my 21 ds who is on the spectrum.But do i see them because i am watching out for them,and if kieran wasnt on the spectrum would i have noticed them at all.IMy mother said to me once that she thinks my uncle on my dads side is OCD, and that there is aspects of OCD in all of us.Which i suppose she is right in some respect and if we looked at the criteria for Aspergers we would probably be able to tick some of the boxes ourselves.Some good points raised on this thread and personal experiences always help in my opinion.

 

 

 

lynn

[mrs fussy]

Hi everyone thanks so much for all your replys absoloutly great, keep em coming they are reallly helpful to me, i wouldnt have imagined that so many people would have posted back on this subject so am really pleased and as i say have been really helpful. I am just really worried because my sons school seem like they really want it to be aspergers, i suppose if it is that he doesnt get a diagnosis it would mean his behavioural problems at school would be down to other reasons and take it from me there are no problems at home, could they be due to boredom? at school? considering he has done 3 years with no problems.You see at last parents evening they said he had achieved the highest level expected for a year 6 pupil (hes year 3) i asked what he would be doing for the next 3 years they said we dont know, what do you think about that, not long after that thay excluded him for 16 days(16 days for a SEN pupil) on returning he has been on a part-time timetable for a whole term just half days well of course this could create social problems but to be honest my son has still kept the freinds he had despite this. At one meeting i voiced my concerns at the reduced hours and asked for some work for the afternoons for him they said they would at the next meeting when asked they hadnt provided any and said Oh its nothing he cant catch up on or read out of a book or off the internet(this was the heads reply) to be honest she was right he probably learnt more at home but that wasnt the answer i would expect from a head teacher, can you see why i am worried i think they want to blame his behaviour on the fact he may have aspergers, and it may well be that but i want to be certain i dont want him to have a label if its not the proper one for him, and well its certainly not going to help him in the long run is it.We are due to see CAMHS soon what tests if any do they do do they IQ test and what else do they observe him, i kinda feel like sometimes i have looked too far into things and myself puit it down to aspergers, i mean did anyone else find this you kind of become blinkered and start seeing things, thta otherwise you wouldnt have. sorry for the long thread i just need to get to the bottom of this. Mrs F x

[Shnoing]

If you got the correct informations and have "slept over" them then you should be able to come to the right conlusions - that's what our brains are wired to do.

[Suze]

Hi mrs f, I had the same doubts about my son pre dx, my son muddled along through infants and alot of his behaviours and difficulties were put down to his dyslexia and dyspraxia and his immaturity (he is the youngest in his school year).How ever when he moved to juniors all hell broke loose , he would run out of school, cry every day, refuse to go and had a breakdown.This prompted a referral to camhs.I was,nt convinced at first , I read books and did,nt really think they described my son.That was nearly 4 1/2 yrs ago.Now I believe they got the dx correct.I,ve been fortunate to meet lots of kids on the spectrum and all are completely different , but all met the criteria for dx.I think I struggled with his dx initially because after reading about autism I thought well thats how you should behave if you have it ....you should do this and this, struggle with that and be really good at that.But they are all individuals with differing strengths and difficulties etc, so keep an open mind I guess is what I,m trying to say.When you see the camhs team they will want to know all about his development, pre-school years,school now, home life etc, your worries etc, hope it goes o.k. hugs suzex

[wishingwell]

This is a difficult time for you and your family, you are looking for answers like us all.

The thought of our child having special education needs does not in any way effect how well academically he achieves in school, but it helps the staff understand him better and gives him a better quality of life in school through out the day.

My son was thrown out of pre-school. How could this happen to my little professor, being the youngest child, being the brightest child, being the best mannered child how could this have happened? Quite simply his behavior at home was not the same as his behavior at school. Yes they could see he was academically bright, yes they could see he came from a loving home, yes they praised him daily for his manners but within the school setting he became over stimulated and behaved in an inappropriate manor. They tolerated him for a long time until a serious incident happen and they sent for me I wouldn't believe my son was capable of such behavior because he did not show this side at home. And it was because I was not prepared to accept that there was a problem they ask me to remove him from the school. Deep down I knew something was different about him compared to his peers and his brightness academically alone was not going to get him through school. My search for answers began it was a hard pill to swallow but I am pleased I got him the diagnoses of aspergers and not the label of the naughty boy whom no-one has time for.

Getting a diagnoses is not an easy journey and the authorities would prefer not to offer them. If a child has one it will cost the system money, something that is not handed out lightly. I don't imagine the school is trying to go against you and your son, simply they are trying to help. To gain the best for your son you could benefit from their support at this time, write down your sons strengths them write down the things which upset him and cause him concern example: behavior, quirky ways write them down, being intellectual makes it difficult for him to socialize with his peers, being right all the time, talking to everyone in the same way adults peers alike, excluded from school for 16 days. You wrote (16 days for a SEN pupil) has the processes began in school and what stage are you at. Make an appointment with the sen of the school and the HT and sit down and ask them to explain your sons problems in school and why it is only this year these have been brought to your attention. Let them know you want the best too for your son, a mutual understanding will be a big help during the process. You say your due to see CHMHS soon they will test your son academic abilities written and theory, they will talk to him to discover his hobbies and interests, they will watch him socialize in class and in the playground. They will talk to you about any concerns you have about him in school and at home, bring your lists with you and don't be afraid to ask plenty of questions I was terrified but I didn't show it. I also brought a Dictaphone and taped the meeting so the rest of the family could listen and that I could go over it again at home. This was a very difficult time and I was afraid I wouldn't remember what I'd been told, she also had no problems with it and was very understanding. They will talk with his teachers about his work and behavior in school. This is why you need to be able to work along with the school to be able to provide him with the best possible education that is available and which he so rightly deserves. If your son does not have aspergers they will not diagnosis it.

 

If this does not work out another alternative would be home schooling.

 

I wish you and your son the very best with this, you are not alone. <'> <'> <'>

[mrs fussy]

Wishingwell thankyou so much for your words of support, i really apreciate it, we have had meeting with head but not senco, his class teacher this year was senco at her last school and has taken it all upon herself to sort everything(im not happy with this i think it should be the school senco) as she exaggerates things that i have said to her, they have offered no support whatsoever to me. And yes i am close to taking him out permanently i must admit cant take much more. Mrs F x My son was put on SA in december then SA+ in march.

Edited July 6, 2007 by mrs fussy