What do you do if they 'refuse' english work?

[llisa32]

Hi, all ideas/comments welcome please and I'll try not to ramble!

 

J has always struggled with writing, he hates doing it and is very concious that it;s not as tidy as his peers

 

He's really been struggling with 'diary writing' at school, and all forms of expressive writing and comprehension and has over the last couple of months either refused to do it at school or home, or done very little under duress. He gets really cross and frustrated about it.

 

We've had several meetings with the school and senco and they have sortof tried to help...but we're kinda getting stuck now on the 'defination' of 'trying'.

 

We're waiting for an Ed Psch to go into the school and assess J's needs, and in the meantime we have said to him he needs to at least 'try' and so some english work. However....J's dad is worried that j will not really try...and will just say'but i have tried and only done 2 lines' when if he had 'really' tried he might have managed 5.

 

I don't especially agree with J's dad although I do agree it's difficult to tell what to do for the best whilst we wait for all these reviews etc. Removing tv and xbox etc doesn't make him do the work, and he just gets really angry and cross.

 

He keeps asking me when is the lady who's going to look at his school work coming to school...so he's obs worried about it and whats some help - but if i'm honest I really don't know what to do now.

 

His form teachers getting quite petty about it...telling me 'well other children write at least a paragraph or 2..and j's only written 2 sentances it's not enough'...but he will not do it at home .

 

Home is home and school is school - quite firmly in J's mind.

 

So what do/can I do in the meantimre whilst we wait for appts/reviews etc?? - anything, or just ride it out?

[Bard]

This is just a quicky, because I'm supposed to be planning my science, but I popped in for a look...

Beg pardon if you've tried this already.

Might he find it easier to dictate what he wants to say to you, you write it out and then he copies what you have written for him?

It's still his own words, but you've split the activity into 2 distinct sections. One where he has to think, the other when he has to write.

Are his teachers giving him writing frameworks to help him structure what he's having to write?

Cloze procedures, where you fill in the gap to show your understanding, without writing reams?

Has he got a correct pencil grip, or is his hand getting physically tired?

Have you tried using a whiteboard, with coloured pens for trying sentences out before writing them.

I'll have another think when I've finished my science, but what in particular does he find difficult; not knowing what to say, remembering what he was going to say as he records it, spelling, pencil/pen coordination...

Writing is hard! I have several 8 year olds in my class who struggle with different aspects of the whole business. <'>

 

" His form teachers getting quite petty about it...telling me 'well other children write at least a paragraph or 2..and j's only written 2 sentances it's not enough' "

They need to get a grip on themselves, he's only 8. They should be thinking of ways and means to engage and excite him about writing, using their imaginations and creating materials to help him. Nagging is pointless if he's worried and anxious. It's a strategy that really only works on the lazy, and only sometimes.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Bard

[llisa32]

Hi Bard,

 

Thanks for response...he's finding recalling what he did and then writing it down difficult re the diary, and comprehension he's not getting on with at all.

 

Diary writing he doesn't see the point of cos its not 'learning' and comprehension he doesn't understand why he has to answer in a full sentance rather than the direct answer...ie -

 

Question...What did the dog find in the dump?

Expected Answer - The dog found some old bones and a mouldy fish in the dump

 

J's answer - Bones and Fish

 

he really does not understand what he's doing wrong in this instance...in his mind he's been asked a q and he's answered it!

 

I'm not sure re the pencil grip anymore as he's got that grumpy about writing per se that he won't even discuss what makes it hard - he'll only say his writings bad, it's difficult to write neatly.

 

When the teachers had a word with me which is weekly at moment to say she's not happy with the amount he's produced in class...we've done it at home with me getting him to verbally give answers, then me writing them down.

 

He will not entertain the writing himself at home at all at the moment

 

They've been using the whiteboard in his lsu lesson, but it's not been rolled out in general class work/english lessons.

 

Just seen your edited post....we are getting a little short on patience with the form teacher cos to be honest she's only got 12 kids in the class, and all they seem to do in english lessons is diary writing, or work straight from a text book or blackboard (she's now having to copy out anything from the blackboard for him on advice from senco and it;s in his IEP)

Edited November 11, 2007 by llisa32

[Bard]

One of the easiest ways of making your handwriting easier to read is to concentrate on ascenders and descenders.

In my class, we write on 8mm lined paper, but on alternate lines. That way, the b d f h k l t can touch the line above, to make sure they're tall. And the f g j p q y have room to sit on the line with their tails hanging down and not get muddled in with the line below. Reading isn't just a phonic activity, it's visual and linked to the shape a word makes. If the word is the right 'shape' it's easier to read.

Answering questions not in a complete sentence is where cloze could be useful, or a sentence starter

The dog found...

They could try reversal, giving him simple answers like 'bones and fish' and the passage and asking him to put the answer in context.

As he's now in refusal 'I'm stupid and I can't do this...' they are going to need to lure him back with more support targeting his needs. If they get grumpy, he'll probably just continue to refuse.

Back to your question, what can you do if they refuse? Not much, other than, as a teacher, ask yourself how you can help them out of the cul-de-sac.

If the teachers won't listen, then you need to get the EP and some skilled help on your side. Then you can make them do their job.

 

12 KIDS, I'VE GOT 30! WHAT A LAZY *** Time to nag!

Edited November 11, 2007 by Bard

[Lucas]

This sounds exactly like how I struggled in school.

 

He's absolutely sodding right. What is he learning from the garbage they're making him do? He isn't learning and he obviously sounds like he has fine co-ordination issues. He also doesn't percieve langauge like an NT does: exactly in what context would a person have to ask you a question like 'what did the dog find in the dump?' and 'the dog found some old bones and mouldy fish in the dump' ? Who the hell talks like that? If someone spoke like that, you'd back away quickly.

 

Conversational English is the way we're taught to speak most of the time(the direct and short answer). When we're then told this is wrong, what are we supposed to think?

 

It sounds like they're going to waste years of his life teaching him nothing, like what happened to me.

[paulathomson]

i have all these issues with my lad..he refuses to do written work...and he doesnt particularly like reading either..with his homework.. which is work that he hasnt completed in class...i have to help him. i do this by reading what he has to do and break it down into small chunks..i will suggest ideas and he will choose which he wants to write and he will write them.. and i help him with the spelling.

 

but i also have to help him with his maths and other things..not because he cant or refuses to do it but because he doesnt always understand what he is being asked to do.

 

again the teacher says more or less the same thing..''you have only written 1/2 lines and its not enough''....when will they ever listen. in the meeting i had with school and senco etc i suggested that his written work is to be broken down into small chunks and the behaviour support who were also present recommended to senco that they use cartoons and storyboards to help him...but im not sure that this has been implemented...

 

all i can suggested is to help him as much as you can by doing english in little bits and like someone else said..let him dictate and you write and then he copy after.. or try and get him to suggest ideas with you and choose the best ones to write...

 

im sorry my advice isnt very good...hope you get some help for your child soon...

[Karen A]

Hi.I was wondering whether J is able to use a keyboard and whether it would help.Ben found literacy very difficult and frustrating due to DCD and hypermobility.Despite attempts with various pencil grip etc he was still frustrated and began to refuse to write.An alphasmart was provided for him and it has made a huge difference.Now he is able to show his ability and may even be an author one day.

If the difficulties your DS has are more to do with organisation or other things it may not solve the problem.However it may be worth a go even for a while as a way of helping your DS to feel more positive.

Ben's ability to write has also improved now that he is less anxious and able to use the keyboard for longer pieces of work.Karen.

[Mumble]

He also doesn't percieve langauge like an NT does: exactly in what context would a person have to ask you a question like 'what did the dog find in the dump?' and 'the dog found some old bones and mouldy fish in the dump' ? Who the hell talks like that? If someone spoke like that, you'd back away quickly.

 

Conversational English is the way we're taught to speak most of the time(the direct and short answer). When we're then told this is wrong, what are we supposed to think?

In many ways you are exactly right, Lucus, but there is a difference between the written and spoken forms of language. In spoken forms we have context and additional, often non-verbal, cues. In written language we have to rely on exactly what is on the page. Full sentence answers can seem pedantic in the context of comprehension, but they are teaching an important skill - that of communicating clearly and unambiguously to your reader. I think education is perhaps slightly behind where we are in the world - much that is written now does take the form of conversation - MSN, text speak etc. But there is, I believe, still a place for formal writing. What we need to do is see it as this rather than as some pointless exercise.

 

comprehension he doesn't understand why he has to answer in a full sentance rather than the direct answer...ie -

 

Question...What did the dog find in the dump?

Expected Answer - The dog found some old bones and a mouldy fish in the dump

 

J's answer - Bones and Fish

 

he really does not understand what he's doing wrong in this instance...in his mind he's been asked a q and he's answered it!

To look at this positively, the fact that he can give a factual answer suggests there isn't a problem with his comprehension skills but with his understanding of the task. This is a seperate issue to address. If I was feeling up for a 'discussion' on this, I would be asking the teacher what her learning objectives/outcomes for the comprehension lesson are - if they are purely 'comprehension' then he is fulfilling these and should not be penalised. Even if, for some reason she wants full sentences, given that J has an IEP and is supported by the LSU, he should be allowed to answer as he is - at least he is doing some writing. With an AS boy I had in one of my classes, I just p/copied the questions and stuck them in his book to contextualise his answers - he was assessed on his comprehension skills which allowed me to address any specific issues related to this.

 

Answering questions not in a complete sentence is where cloze could be useful, or a sentence starter

The dog found...

They could try reversal, giving him simple answers like 'bones and fish' and the passage and asking him to put the answer in context.

Which surely you would expect the teacher to have tried . . .

Also as well as reversal with the pasage, reversal without the passage and who can come up with the most bizarre question to still fit the answer - this then suggests the need for the answer to provide contextualisation.

 

I'm not sure re the pencil grip anymore as he's got that grumpy about writing per se that he won't even discuss what makes it hard - he'll only say his writings bad, it's difficult to write neatly.

 

When the teachers had a word with me which is weekly at moment to say she's not happy with the amount he's produced in class...we've done it at home with me getting him to verbally give answers, then me writing them down.

 

He will not entertain the writing himself at home at all at the moment

I totally understand Bard's point about handwriting, but this shouldn't get in the way of his learning. I hated writing at school because it was painful, I couldn't make it look right and I hated to see mistakes on the page, and the teachers used to shout at me for not trying and being lazy. It was only when I started using a computer, was wasn't really until the 6th form, that I found a way of expressing myself and enjoyment in writing. Would he be able to use a laptop or computer to do some of his writing (with the understanding that he still has to do handwriting practice?). The beauty of a computer, like a whiteboard, is that whatever is written is not permanent.

 

They've been using the whiteboard in his lsu lesson, but it's not been rolled out in general class work/english lessons.

Which kinda makes it pointless being used in the LSU lesson . . .

 

And Bard's right about the 12 kids thing - I thought I had it easy when I had a class of 20. 12 is no more than a large family and he should be getting a lot more individual attention - and particularly if 'all the other children are happy writing their paragraphs' - frees her up to work with J!!!

[mum23]

My kids all had problems with writting at school, not just English all lessons! After much C**p from school about being a poor parent and not supporting the school as I did not push my kids to do their homework! What did they want, me to tie them to their seat and not feed them until they did their homework! We luckly discovered coloured paper, then tinted lens glasses and finally the all powerfull computer! All my kids have visual and auditory processing problems. We found that the aforementioned tools helped them over come these problems to an extent that they can function at the same level as their peers not leave them struggeling and going nowhere.

So Lisa if you have not tried this yet you could get pad of coloured paper and see if your son finds he can write any better with one perticular colour mine were much better with yellow and green. My AS son loves to draw so we got some books on step to step way to draw, it helped build our sons fluidity (is that a real word!) and made his confidance grow. Also eventualy he also began to appriciate that you can put lots of pencil marks together to make a good picture and that if you put lots of words together in the right way that you can also make a good picture!

Any way I think it sonds to me that your sons teacher is well a bit of a lazy one and should be trying all sorts to help your son not get fed up with him and you.

Well good luck with it all.

Anna

[Lucas]

Mumble, in this case there is absolutely no reason why the reader would not understand the answer 'old bones and mouldy fish' seeing as it's the answer to the question they asked. It's answered quite adequately. The blame rests entirely with how the question was phrased.

 

If people can't be open and direct with us, they can only blame themselves. Does this person want to know what the dog found or do they want to know if a pupil can use complete sentences? If they want a complete sentence, they should ask for a complete sentence, not the answer to something simple and not requiring a complete sentence stretched out to a grammatically-suspect piece of waffle.

 

It's pointless exercises like this that held me back in English, they were more of a hinderence than anything. A pupil can demonstrate they understand and can construct complete sentences by simply speaking. They can write anything they can say but it's slower and harder. Is this meant to teach writing or langauge skills? They are NOT the same. If they are trying to teach writing skills, they're wasting HIS time in my opinion unless they do typing instead.

[Mumble]

Lucus, I totally understand and apologise if what I wrote came across wrongly. All I was trying to suggest was that there is a place for learning formal writing skills, but maybe this is not the correct one, hence me suggesting that llisa found out what the learning objectives were. I would add to this that perhaps, as should occur in mainstream, these LOs are clearly communicated to all pupils.

[llisa32]

Thanks all for the suggestions and thoughts <'>

 

Lucus and Mumble...on the Learning objectives point....J did ask me why he had to do the diary writing last week because in his opinion it;s not 'learning' - I said most likely for the writing practice. He then said 'well I should be writing it in my 'handwriting practice book at school then!'.

 

I totally see where his opinions are based, and I don't think the teacher is explaining what she requires from him properly at all - I kinda resent feeling like I'm having to do her job rather than just 'help' J with homework.

 

Tonights homework as usual was a joke...teacher had written in his home/school diary 'Spellings, reading and 7x tables'

 

But....no spelling list in bag and no reading book in bag!...Don;t know how many times I've asked if he has homework they need to make sure it's in the bag otherwise it never makes it home - let alone refuse to do it!

 

Bard, thanks for all the suggestions , will look at some of those with J and the LSU teacher

 

I've chased up Ed Psych appt today but no ones called me back yet

[tmf]

J has always struggled with writing, he hates doing it and is very concious that it;s not as tidy as his peers

 

He's really been struggling with 'diary writing' at school, and all forms of expressive writing and comprehension and has over the last couple of months either refused to do it at school or home, or done very little under duress. He gets really cross and frustrated about it.

 

We've had several meetings with the school and senco and they have sortof tried to help...but we're kinda getting stuck now on the 'defination' of 'trying'.

 

We're waiting for an Ed Psch to go into the school and assess J's needs, and in the meantime we have said to him he needs to at least 'try' and so some english work. However....J's dad is worried that j will not really try...and will just say'but i have tried and only done 2 lines' when if he had 'really' tried he might have managed 5.

 

I don't especially agree with J's dad although I do agree it's difficult to tell what to do for the best whilst we wait for all these reviews etc. Removing tv and xbox etc doesn't make him do the work, and he just gets really angry and cross.

 

This sounds like my ds you are describing. We are currently having the same problems. His english (apart from reading) is his poorest subject. He hates writing because he cannot see the point. We have tried explaining y it is important we write, so he will write cards as he can see the purpose with them. I too have tried banning the tv/psp but that does not work either.

 

Luckily though his school are understanding to his needs. Yes the other children write paragraphs, but they understand ds inability/refusal to write so they set him tasks of 2-3 paragraphs and this seems to work well. I also purchased a special pen designed for right handed (they also do left handed) ithas 3 grips where they know to put there fingers, thus putting it in the tripod grip like they should be doing. Unfortunately he is not aloud to use this at school because he is in yr 3, u can only use pen when u get to yr4???? On the positive side it has helped him withhis grip.

 

"Tonights homework as usual was a joke...teacher had written in his home/school diary 'Spellings, reading and 7x tables'

 

But....no spelling list in bag and no reading book in bag!...Don;t know how many times I've asked if he has homework they need to make sure it's in the bag otherwise it never makes it home - let alone refuse to do it!"

 

We have this issue 2, they say they put it in there, but at some point ds takes it out and 'loses' it. We now have system set up with the teacher to ensure evrything comes home and so far so good. 1 good thing about his school they are very good at parent-teacher communication. Just today and IEP is in place for strategies around his english lessons to get the best from him.

 

If it helps, please tell your dh that 2-3 lines is 'trying' hard in their head. i know it feels like you are my dh is the same, luckily he is hardly here as it is clash of the titans sometimes when they are in the same room!!

 

Anyway think i have rambled on enough, hope it reassures you 2 know u are not alone....it certainly does me!

[llisa32]

Hi TMF, thanks very much for the response - I really appreciate the shared experience - it does help <'>

 

Todays diary entry's from the teacher got me fuming again..

 

I wrote a note in the diary asking if homework could be put into J's bag so that it comes home - she wrote a note saying 'yes, when I am around..which is just tuesday and thursdays!

 

She then wrote a note saying that he got 3 out of 12 and 4 out of 12 for some tables tests this morning and that he has these everyweek and that 'j knows this'

 

And she wants me to do what exactly?? little point J 'knowing' if he keeps the info to himself! - and it;s not written down anywhere!

 

Have chased Ed Psch and she's now doing a home visit just before xmas...infact...the day before ADOS test! - gonna be a busy week that week!

[Bard]

She then wrote a note saying that he got 3 out of 12 and 4 out of 12 for some tables tests this morning and that he has these everyweek and that 'j knows this'

And she wants me to do what exactly??

 

Slightly off topic (who, me?) but this is the sort of comment that I get regularly from B's French teacher.

He has real difficulties in remembering and embedding new nouns into his vocabulary, in English.

So really, what chance has French got ?

He can't remember vocabulary or spellings, and he doesn't really care. I told him to try his best, and I'd be pleased with him. So he does and then feels no worry or guilt, and it drives Madame up the wall!

He has a go, scores around 3 or 4 and then often experiments with different sorts of question marks and puzzled faces for the other answers.

And she wants me to do what, exactly?

[tmf]

His school or rather teacher sounds really unskilled and seems to lack understanding in his needs. Does your school have a special needs co-ordinator that you can arrange a meeting with??

 

I had this problem with his teacher in yr1.......words come to mind, but had better not say what i think of her on here!! Put it this way if dd gets her nx year i will be complaining to head. She was an NQT with no obvious skills on how to deal with a child that isn't the 'norm' I spent that year and in lots of the time.

 

Keep your chin up, hope app with ed phys goes well. Does he get 1-2-1? ds 1-2-1 makes sure h/w is in bag and writes to tell me what it was. I then check his book before leaving. Now he knows we 'talk' to each other his h/w has been present (2 wks now).

 

As long as you know he is trying his best....keep it up, sure ur doing a grand job!

 

<'>

[Canopus]

It's pointless exercises like this that held me back in English, they were more of a hinderence than anything. A pupil can demonstrate they understand and can construct complete sentences by simply speaking. They can write anything they can say but it's slower and harder. Is this meant to teach writing or langauge skills? They are NOT the same. If they are trying to teach writing skills, they're wasting HIS time in my opinion unless they do typing instead.

 

This mouldy old chestnut keeps recurring constantly. Why do teachers still fail to realise that poor handwriting (a fine motor skill) impacts badly on a kid's desire and self esteem when it comes to producing written work (an intellectual skill)? The teachers should let kids use computers to produce written work rather than constantly criticise their handwriting.

 

 

Lucus and Mumble...on the Learning objectives point....J did ask me why he had to do the diary writing last week because in his opinion it;s not 'learning' - I said most likely for the writing practice. He then said 'well I should be writing it in my 'handwriting practice book at school then!'.

 

How about a diary in the form of an internet blog?