Refusing to do work in class

[llisa32]

Hi...I'd asked my son's form teacher for an update regarding how J was getting on with English and Maths at the moment - given that we have an Ed Psch appointment next month.

 

Apparently he's refusing to do any english work or maths work fairly frequently and the teachers are just starting to think he's being 'naughty' more so than finding it difficult.

 

He's definately been finding english difficult, has trouble with his writing, and struggles with non fiction writing/comprehension and diary writing.

 

Maths I've yet to figure out why he no longer likes the subject - he just says it's 'hard' but i think it's porbably to do with the fact they have to write out sums more now and the paper they use has very small graph squares on.

 

If he gets homework most times he won't do it without a fight - if at all. He'd rather loose tv, playstation or xbox than do it.

 

I have a meeting with the teachers in the morning...I feel like they think we should be 'threatening' or punishing' him more to 'make' him do it as one of their comments today was 'we can't 'make' him do the work.

 

His LSU teacher has confirmed today that he def struggles with 'why' you have to write in full sentances (subject to debate I know) J just doesn't see the point. But at the moment he only seems to be bothered with subjects he has an interest in or finds easy and everything else he;s not interested in at all.

 

But because he makes comments to the teachers like 'I don't want a job ' or 'I don't need english and maths for the job I'll do' and just shrugs etc they just think he's being either lazy/stubborn/naughty or all 3.

 

We're still part way thru diagnosis at mo and next month have a disco, ADOS and ed psch appt all in the space of 2 weeks!

 

What do you guys think in the meantime? - do you have/had the same issues at school with your kids? - what did you do? what should I do??

[Mumble]

I've PM'ed you

[Minxygal]

Wonder if he has some PDA traits.

[llisa32]

Hi Minxygirl - whats PDA please?

 

Thanks

[Mumble]

It's Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome. It is similar in some ways to, but in other ways very different from, ASDs.

 

See NAS Guide for more info.

[KateBall]

What do you guys think in the meantime? - do you have/had the same issues at school with your kids? - what did you do? what should I do??

 

 

Yep we do have similar issues. My ds will refuse to do work but I think the school seem to handle it fairly well. They give him no option but to do it by consequences if he doesn't - eg to miss out on special times such as choosing or golden time. I's sure sometimes it works and sometimes not. They will also give him treats if he does do work such as being able to do his own stuff for a short time - eg computer game or lego. They have a picture book showing scenarios and consequences - good as well as bad. The class teacher sends home the odd bit of homework but I know they don't expect me to make him do it as they know he may prove difficult and that just makes home life even more difficult. I think they just send it home in the hope he might and then its a bonus if he does. I asked him tonight if he had any homework to do and he said "no I because I said I didn't want any"!

[Bard]

I have a meeting with the teachers in the morning...I feel like they think we should be 'threatening' or punishing' him more to 'make' him do it as one of their comments today was 'we can't 'make' him do the work.

 

His LSU teacher has confirmed today that he def struggles with 'why' you have to write in full sentances (subject to debate I know) J just doesn't see the point. But at the moment he only seems to be bothered with subjects he has an interest in or finds easy and everything else he;s not interested in at all.

 

But because he makes comments to the teachers like 'I don't want a job ' or 'I don't need english and maths for the job I'll do' and just shrugs etc they just think he's being either lazy/stubborn/naughty or all 3.

 

If the sanctions that the school have available to them are not ones that make an impact on your son, then they either need to get creative, with support and input from you, or the situation will continue to deteriorate.

How true do you think it might be, that he is a lad who is discovering how much control others have over him, and how far he can push the boundaries? With my B, sometimes it's the AS, other times it's being nearly 13 and male. He dislikes certain activities and wants to avoid them for ones that he prefers. Logical really.

Many friends of mine with NT boys are having similar issues about their response to finding school work and expectations more than they feel they want to manage.

Many lads I taught used to say that they were going to be premier league footballers, and didn't need any education. The cheekier ones would tell me that they were going to be dealers, ditto for the education.

You could try getting the school to replace his maths book for one that looks like his previous one, if you think that the graph paper is putting him off.

Do you think that he's being lazy, stubborn or naughty?

Edited November 22, 2007 by Bard

[stressedmumto2]

Hi Lisa,

 

That was almost as if you had written that about my son. The good thing is you have all the assessments coming up soon which i think could really help you get to the bottom of his refusal to do work and will help the school to understand what is going on.

 

My son has been diagnosed as having ASD-PDA presentation and in general he will refuse to do everday things like have wash, brush teeth, take his sister to dance lessons even leave the house sometimes etc, when it comes to school work he completly refuses to work if that work makes him anxious. He will go through stages when everything is fine and he's working, at the moment he's having a tough time though!! School were insisting on catch up time after school but I think they may also see now that this method isn't particulary working.

 

There isn't much info on PDA but if you google it there is a website with a forum you may get some helpful advice there. I think personally I would let the school deal with him there and for you not topunish him when he comes home, school needs to be school and home home.

 

What is he like at home ?

[llisa32]

Thanks Bard.

 

I think he's being really stubborn because he's finding those particular 2 subjects difficult.

 

Has been the same with everything in and out of school since he was small...smallest hint of failure and he will give up.

 

He doesn't want to run the risk of being 'wrong' or messing something up - and will then just not even try.

 

The fact that he's willing to give up the loves of his life (xbox/[playstaion/tv) and still not do the work to me implies

that he badly doesn't want to do it. I think he needs more encouragement that will not feel like enforcement to him.

 

He may well be being overly stubborn bordering on naughty over these 2 subjects cos he feels at the moment that no one is 'helping' him and he's got really fed up - he doesn't feel in control of his day and I suspect eliminating the 2 subjects causing him the most grief are helping him get thru it.

[Bard]

Your perception is what you need to share with the school, it sounds like you're being very clear-sighted about his problems, and that is so important.

If you and school can work together to find out how to motivate him and get him moving again, it will be so much more effective that school=bad=punishment home=good=refuge.

My NT daughter can react like this; because she's gifted in several areas, she can lack both enthusiasm and stamina when she tries something that she's not good at. And she would rather put up with sanctions that try and get something repeatedly wrong.

B seems to accept that everything he does requires effort, so we have a series of rewards, bribes and treats laid out like breadcrumbs. It works well in tandem with sanctions for less acceptable behaviour.

It's really tough, but you know your son better than anyone else, so you are in the best position to help him, and to tell others how to.

[Minxygal]

Aspergers and PDA can co exist and it certainly sounds like he's exibiting a degree of demand avoidance. I put our PDA leaflet on here somewhere, if thats of any help, basically for some kids their anxieties prevent them from completing tasks that are often well within their capabilities and they will take huge steps to avoid having to participate or conform.

There is very little info out there that you dont need a degree to wade through, but there are stratagies that help.

 

PDA contact forum

This is the website for the PDA forum

 

Supporting a child with PDA

 

And this is the link to the pda leaflet we use at our organisation

Edited November 22, 2007 by Minxygal

[KateBall]

Is there a difference between ODD (oppositional defiancy disorder) and PDA?

[Minxygal]

Do you know I'm not sure. although there seems to be a difference in the fact that the behaviours and the avoidance's with PDA are anxiety induced. Anxiety is the key to the need for control with PDA and understanding that is the key to managing the behaviours more effectively.

[stressedmumto2]

Is there a difference between ODD (oppositional defiancy disorder) and PDA?

 

 

The behaviours exhibit sometimes in the same way.

 

My child was first dx ADHD, ODD with AS traits treating him as if he had ODD had terrible consequences for us as a family for a few years until recently when we got the dx of PDA. The conditions need to be managed very differently and with a lot of understanding.

 

Check out the PDA site although my son doesn't meet the criteria completly, managaing him PDA way and understanding the refusal is because of the anxiety means we know now when we need to reduce the pressure, whereas when treating him as if he were ODD, I was trying to be in control of him, The PDA child has to feel the need to be in control. <'> <'>

[westie]

Hi, this post could be about my son too! He is 8.5 and diagnosed PDA. Now in yr 4 he has taken a step backwards, and is refusing to do work, and the school I think are scared to push as he is being aggressive again. I also get feeling that they think he is just being naughty as he is not in "meltdown" at that point but is simply refusing to do the work, without being out of control and unable to respond normally. After the annual review meeting (he is statemented) I was thinking about it later I know that with PDA, kids try anything to get out of what they percieve as extremely stressful and anxious situation where someone is making demands on them, and a meltdown scenario is usually last resort when other strategies have failed.

 

The teacher told me that he is very clever, and usually is good in science and history, but writing and numeracy he is not keen on (and PE) and is actively avoiding this. He spends 45 mins actively avoiding doing work and will then rush in last 15 mins to do it sometimes, or just not do it at all and was told that they were lucky to get him working 1hr per day, so he is falling behind. I know he is scared of making mistakes and has very low self esteem, and he has poor muscle tone so his handwriting is bad and he hates doing it wrong, will rip up work he is not happy with and this is partly why he avoids this kind of work, though he can reel of facts about egyptians etc. - if he has interest in topic he is good.

 

We have tried a number of things to try and get him to do the work.

 

School/ Behaviour support service are making referral to CAMHS for anger management or similar

 

He is going to have a safe place to go out of the classroom when stressed - but there are going to be worksheets for him to complete with his helper - so he is not just opting out of working and using "stress" as an excuse to sit doing nothing!

 

Also myself and class teacher discussed motivation to work, and at present we are trying a chart for recording when he has had a good lesson and done work with no inappropriate behaviour. That is 4 lessons and dinnertimes. At end of week he fetches chart home and for each face he gets 10p (or 20p for numeracy as this is particular issue). This is working better than nothing - not perfect each and every lesson but its a start. And I am always aware that this may become "passe" at any time and new techniques may need to be tried. Note he just gets nothing for no face - like the parenting books tell you to reward good behaviour and ignore the behaviour you do not want (obviously we would not ignore violence etc).

 

In terms of homework I get the same at home, and to help I try and give him a "warning" in the morning that he needs to do homework and then ask him what time (3pm, 4pm, 5pm etc) then he is getting some choice in matter but he understands that it has to be done. At chosen time, if he then moans I remind him it was his choice to do it at that time, and mostly he does it but again it usually is 1/2 hr of distractions or moaning although occasionally he will get on and do it without all the fuss!

 

If I can get him involved in decisions somehow (whilst steering towards result I want of course) then he generally finds it easier to accept. I am also trying to get him to understand that he is responsible for his behaviour and if he chooses not to do something there may be consequences that he does not like. - i.e. no homework, no playing with friends until is completed.

 

The PDA forum (see link posted earlier) is useful to read through for tips - there are some good posts on helping a PDA child at school and maybe you can suggest some of the ideas to the school.

 

I hope you find something that works (and if you do please tell us all about it!!!)

Edited November 27, 2007 by westie