Do your children in Mainstream

[llisa32]

Hi,

 

I was wondering if your children that are at mainstream school take exams/tests in the same format as other non sen children?

 

Ie..do they sit in the same room as the other kids and complete a timed test same as the others?

 

Or do they complete in a seperate room with a teacher/ta for support and are given extra time to complete?

 

I'm thinking particularly in relation to children with writing/processing difficulties.

 

Much appreciate any responses

 

Thanks <'>

[oxgirl]

Hiya,

 

J is in a Unit attached to a mainstream and does English, Maths and Science in mainstream. He's year 9, so not done exams yet, but it has been discussed and it is assumed that he'll do them when the time comes. It was suggested that he might need a scribe for the exam and I'm sure he'll get extra time. I'm assuming that he'd need to be in a room on his own so that he can tell the scribe what to write down for him. They're trying to get him to use a keyboard and if he is competent on this by the time he's ready for exams he'll be able to use a laptop for exams, as far as I'm aware.

 

~ Mel ~

[llisa32]

Thanks Mel <'> , I'm curious because J is due to take some 'school tests' in a couple of weeks, and they will be done in

exam conditions - ie all kids in a room, paper in front of them etc.

 

I've asked if J will be given any support and so far all I've been told is that he will be in the room with the other kids but it will be 'handled sensitively' - I've no idea what that means at the moment, and my main concern is that his already very low self esteem will take yet another battering when he see's the other kids getting on with the task and he's not.

 

I don't see how they can provide 'support' unless he's in a room on his own with a TA

 

The tests are to provide 'a guide' apprently - which I assume is a guide to progress and we already know my son has lost progress quite substantially in enlgish and maths since sept and going into year 3.

 

I'm speaking to the Ed Psych this morning but was just curious whats been the case with other children

[Flora]

Lisa,

 

I remember when bill was in year 3, which like your son, was a private school. It was in year 3 when he was dx and the school, looking back, were absolutely brilliant. They gave him lots of extra lessons with a qualified special needs teacher and it was with her, and a couple of other kids with SEN, that he did his end of year optional SATs. He did better in that school year than in any other as a result. I think you need to take your school to task. I was very lucky in that my GP and the CAMHS consultant went into the school and told them in no uncertain terms that, if he was in state school he'd have a statement, but because his parent's were paying for his education then the school had a duty to provide extra help, and they came up trumps. Is there anyone involved in your son's care who could advocate for you like this?

 

It's really not on, they should be giving your son the help he needs, and furthermore they should be explaining to you exactly what that help entails.

 

flora

[llisa32]

Thanks for that Flora, I needed to hear that

 

The last few weeks have been absolutely yeeuch!! - they keep asking me what I think they should do...I suggest stuff and they do their own thing! - they have also been implying the last few weeks that because he's so bright he's just being naughty when refusing to do extra writing/maths etc and that if he tried harder it would all get suddenly easier!

 

After confirming to me this week that he does seem to take longer than the other kids 'processing info' and they already know he's very slow at writing and quite messy - hence y he hates it - they then say he'll do the exams with all the rest!

 

He's already gone down a couple of grades this term, and they know we have a ton of assessments coming up in December - I don't get their attitude at the moment.

 

I told J this week he had to at least 'try' some writing and maths this week else no TV - so he has tried some, but then in school when he's done a bit they say things like 'there, that weasn't so bad - do some more! when actually it took a whole lot of effort for him to do what he's done and I've had no chance at all of getting any homework done this week.

 

When I complained that mental arithmatic was really difficult for him and that could they find ways to help him with that - maybe using visuals of the q's etc they said it's something he needs to get used to!

 

I'm hoping that although our 'official' ed psch appt is not till later on in Dec when I speak to her this morning she will be helpful.

 

I don't think the school know anything about anything other than Dyslexia unfortunately as when I asked the Senco and LSU teacher what a speech and language assessment entailed they didn't know! - if they'd had other kiddies thru school with similar problems surely they would?

[Karen A]

Hi Lisa.Is J in year 3 at a State Primary school ?

I am surprised that they are doing tests under exam conditions as a whole class at all at this stage.

If that is the case then I would not be surprised if a lot of the class find it difficult.

It is a lot to expect of any child in year 3.

If J is at a fee paying school then it would be worth talking to the EP to explain that either appropriate provision is needed or your J should not have to sit the tests.

I am been a bit vague because a lot depends on J's ability and your personal view on tests.

Ben does do tests -at the momment with his class because he is accademicaly able and can cope with the time given.

He will use an Alphasmart rather than writing though.

If Ben was behind his peers in terms of ability or was stressed by the tests I would take a different view.

As a general rule even with Sats schools can make seperate arrangements for children who need them fairly easily if they are willing to.

My other [NT] DS did year 6 Sats in a seperate room with a TA because he was not in school at time due to anxiety.

The school did not even need to contact the LEA for this provision to be made as he sat the tests at the same time as his class and did not need support.

Where children need extra time or a scribe and have recognised SEN there are procedures that the school are expected to follow to ensure appropriate arrangements are made.Karen.

[llisa32]

Thanks Karen - He's at a fee paying school and has an IEP regarding 'Dyslexia' with mention of current issues like anxiety re change, unable to copy down from whiteboard etc.

 

He is behind his peers with Maths and English currently, but mostly I believe due to struggling on the processing side of things and because of his now hatred of writing.

 

Although he will write required amount in subjects like geography and Science.

 

Because he's always noticed the ability of those around him I am really worried about the impact of him sitting the tests - mostly just the english and maths ones. he will not care if other children struggle, he will only notice the few that whizz thru with ease.

 

School have said the tests are 'a guide' , and I know they are moving towards veing streamed. My concern is that J will end up being streamed in a class where the work is below his ability and be bored and unmotivated even more so than currently.

[Karen A]

Hi again.You were just ahead of me with the last post.

We had very similar difficulties with school when Ben was in year 3.

He got to the point where he was agitated and upsett at the prospect of doing any written work at all.

Now Ben uses the Alphamart it has been shown that he is extremely able...but just could not show his ability due to inability to use a pencil to write more than a few lines without getting cramp.

It would be worth asking questions to try and find out how much the school know about supporting a child with the sort of SEN your J has.

If the school have little idea it may be a long and frustrating process helping them to learn or to provide appropriate support.

I have been there.It has taken 2 years of hard work and it is still work in progress. Karen.

[Karen A]

Hi.Ben is now working at the level of the most able children with support where needed for issues around organisation and Social Communication.

If he was to be given work and put in a less able group because of his specific learning difficulties then he would rapidly become frustrated and everyone would be aware of it....school and home.

When Ben had assesments done by the EP as part of Statutary Assesment the tests were able to demonstrate that Ben was bright but had specific difficulties with sensory processing,It may be worth talking to the EP to see what asessments will be done.

I am being a bit wooly because I have no idea how the system works in fee paying schools or who pays for EP input.

If the school pay for EP input then it is probably worth asking for as much EP assessment as you can get.

[llisa32]

Thanks for all this info

 

All the school did re EP inout was give me a list of ed psch's they knew other parents had had dealings with!

 

We are now seeing one from the local council which was arranged by Cahms specialist - I';m hoping that because it will be the same ed psch that goes into the lea schools she will have a good idea of what schools can and do offer and which I suspect mine have never done before

[oxgirl]

Hi Lisa,

 

Your J sounds a lot like mine, he despises writing as well. He has a TA, who will do a lot of his writing for him, but he does do bits and pieces himself sometimes. They give the class regular tests each term and J currently does the tests in the classroom with the other children, although he did come out of a Maths tests recently and completed it with his TA in the Unit, but generally he stays with the others. I know what you mean about not being able to 'show' brightness. My J is gifted in Science, but when it comes to tests, if he only gives a one word answer, which he is inclined to do, he loses points because he hasn't explained himself thoroughly, so although he knows all the information he isn't able to get it down on paper.

 

When it comes to GCSEs he'll need special provision, I'm sure, but at the moment we're quite chilled about general tests and play them down. There might be more pressure in a fee-paying school to perform, maybe? We tend to tell J that the tests are just to show the teacher what the children know and if they need to go over any subjects with them again, etc. and he just sees them as normal work to a certain extent. I guess it's down to how much importance is placed on the tests to some extent. <'>

 

~ Mel ~

[llisa32]

Thanks Mel - at the moment school are placing a huge amount of emphasis on the writing element, and constantly reminding him and me that he 'needs' to write in full sentances, he needs t show what he can do - and they are really not using their imaginations to encourage him.

 

Even learning times tables...school tell him to practise them by reading what has been put down on the page, when actually he does much better with that sort of task if he has to say ...draw a line from the sum to correct answer, or jiggle answers around on a pc screen etc. When it comes to times tables he trys to add in his head as he goes along - which with little numbers prob works okay

 

But...cos they school say 'do it this way' when he comes home and I suggest an alternative way because he's not doing it he just gets cross cos it;s not the way school told him to do things

[Mumble]

As a general rule even with Sats schools can make seperate arrangements for children who need them fairly easily if they are willing to.

This is the key, unfortunately. Adjustments are not difficult. Adjusting attitudes to bring about adjustments is. I would expect schools to make separate arrangements for SATs and for any test that carries any formative significance.

At a minimum he should have a scribe (and ideally he should be working with this person prior to the tests so they are comfortable with each other) - and this would probably entail a separate room and extra time. These are not difficult adjustments and you shouldn't have to be fighting for them . If the school are giving tests that not all can access then they need to evaluate their policies.

[Mumble]

When it comes to times tables he trys to add in his head as he goes along - which with little numbers prob works okay

Multiplication through repeated addition is a strategy that can be very useful. It is included within the Strategy. J doing this suggests to me that he has a good grasp of what tables 'mean'. Many pupils learn them by rote (as the school seems to want) without this understanding, and things begin to fall apart later because they don't have the underlying structure of what tables mean. For 'larger' tables I would suggest a combination. Find a table with an easy pattern that J can grasp - say the 5s and 10s - and get him to use repeated addition/subtraction to work towards the answer he needs from what he knows, rather than starting at 0.

 

So, for 6 x 6, he can say, well I know that 5 x 6 is 30 and I add another 6 to get 36. Or for 9 x 8, he can say, well I know 10 x 8 is 80, but I only want 9 of them so I'll take one lot of 8 away to get 72. (those are probably a bit advanced for year 3, but I hope it makes sense).

[llisa32]

Hiya - yes it does make sense...and I did encourage him to learn his tables this way for say tables 1 - 5

 

But...he does get really frustrated with the extra time it seems to take to do the same with the tables over 5 and then he justs gets fed up and doens't bother trying either method..

 

He does seem to get quite quickly frustrated when he doesn't grasp things either quickly or'easily'

[pearl]

Hi llisa

JP got a separate room, 25% extra time & his TA with him to interpret ambiguous stuff etc. And he did v well on that.

[av16]

I was interested to read this - my son (10-AS) recently took an entrance exam for quite a well-known public school. We thought it would be good for him as it is very structured which he likes. He is very able academically but has a statement and full time 1:1 at his current lea school. I had to send a copy of his statement off to the school as part of the admissions process - it details his problems with following instructions etc, also behavioural issues. He took the test - well over 100 children in 1 room - no help for him so no surprises he failed to make the grade. He doesn't take maths tests in his class yet at school but separately with his 1:1.

 

I wonder if he had other more visible special needs whether he would have been treated in the same way?

 

In lots of ways I am not sorry because I would hate for him to be away from home but I am going to write to the school to point out that they don't seem to be acknowledging the DDA at all.

AV

[Flora]

I was interested to read this - my son (10-AS) recently took an entrance exam for quite a well-known public school. We thought it would be good for him as it is very structured which he likes. He is very able academically but has a statement and full time 1:1 at his current lea school. I had to send a copy of his statement off to the school as part of the admissions process - it details his problems with following instructions etc, also behavioural issues. He took the test - well over 100 children in 1 room - no help for him so no surprises he failed to make the grade. He doesn't take maths tests in his class yet at school but separately with his 1:1.

 

I wonder if he had other more visible special needs whether he would have been treated in the same way?

 

In lots of ways I am not sorry because I would hate for him to be away from home but I am going to write to the school to point out that they don't seem to be acknowledging the DDA at all.

AV

 

A similar think happened to my son when he was 11. Not a public school, but a private school which had an entrance test and activity day all in one. I made the school aware long before of his difficulties; in fact my dd was already at the school so they knew the whole family. They aren't selective as such, but they do the entrance test and activity day to, ontensibly, grade the kids in to the right classes. Well I was really shocked when they turned him down a week later via a very standard letter. I was upset because we already had one child in the school, and when I questioned them why, all the reasons were related to AS. They hadn't made any special concessions for his dx at all. I lodged a DD appeal with SENDIST, but months later than the 2 month deadline (they allowed the late appeal on account that I hadn't wanted to do it while my dd was still in the school), and suddenly they started to listen to me. The head called me in for a meeting and he ended up offering my son a place with a bursary. I also was asked to give them some input into writing their admission policy. My dd wasn't happy in the school so I pulled her out and she goes to a different school now. I turned down their offer of a place because by then my son was having so many difficulties I no longer thought the school was suitable. However, I felt satisfied that I made sure no other child was treated in the same way. I pulled out of tribunal because I felt I achieved all I could before it was heard.

 

If you can prove that the reasons your son didn't make the grade, or was turned down because the school didn't make sure he was treated fairly taking into account his dx, then make them aware of it. Write that letter, because it shouldn't be allowed to happen.

 

flora

[av16]

There will be a letter in the post tomorrow- not to appeal but to let them know that they need to take account of the needs of children like ours.

[baileyj]

My son Max is 7, in year 2 and due to take SATs this year. He has a statement and 27 hours TA time. School are brilliant, have said he can have longer to do his tests, over several days in short bursts, in a seperate room (which he will prefer) with his TA to write for him. If at any time we feel its pressurising for him, then he won't take them. Max too has much difficulty writing, he hates it, so TA writes for him, or for things like spelling, he uses pictures of letters.

 

Good luck, hope you can get the help thats needed.

 

Jo

[llisa32]

Thought I'd resurface this as I got the results of the tests that J took before Xmas.

 

So no one made any concessions for him, he got the same amount of time as everyone else, and in the same room as everyone else, and guess what?? results are wayy below the average of the rest of the class.

 

So...given that it's now been confirmed he has auditory processing problems and trouble with handwriting (waiting for OT assess) and that his actual IQ is above average I think we now have a good case for requesting he has assistance for any future tests/exams.

 

 

Which is what I'll push for - I'm not even going to bother discussing the results of these with J

[pearl]

Good for you. I think 20% extra time is standard, plus SA present, quiet room etc. No way would JP have done so well without this. Its not a concession, its about giving them a level playing field so they can compete on equal terms with their peers. <'>

[lynne]

The problems with ASD children is the same child can be so variable. One morning they could sit the test in the classroom with no extra time, on another morning they may need to be in a quiet room with there TA reading and writing for them. Or they may need several breaks during the exam.

 

My sons school decides what to do with him on the day of the test by how he responds.

 

Lyn

[Kinda]

My son who has gone through to university has had various treatments regarding exams but his Special Educational Needs Statement specifically stated he needed extra time for exams and he could use a computer since his writing took him so long. He also had it written down that he needed notes for his lectures etc.

 

Sometimes dependant upon the facilities available he sometimes took it in a separate room if it was available.