Problems with verbalising feelings

[llisa32]

Hi,

 

J's been a little 'out of sorts' this week and haven't yet managed to work out whats upsetting him - he's been really tired and quick to lose patience all week (quicker than normal

 

Tonight when i picked him up from school I asked him to go and get his games bag for me from the changing rooms and wait there and I was just going to have a quick chat with one of his teachers who'd written a positive note in the home/school diary earlier in the week.

 

I musta been talking for less than five minutes when j came into the class and started hitting me because he'd been 'waiting' and then proceeded to get on the floor and grab my legs and attempt to bite me!

 

He then got an audience of 2 other boys which me and the teacher got rid off, I knew I needed to get him in the car before properly telling him that was sooo not acceptable etc otherwise we'd never have got to the car cos he would have run off if I'd told him off big time in front of teacher and kids.

 

In the car he was left in no doubt about why that was not acceptable, and I said to him it was 'awful behaviour' - he then said 'well I'm an awful kid!'....I have never ever said anything like that to him - ie, never ever called him awful, or bad etc...so that must have been his own summary of himself - that quite upset me that he thinks like that . I made it clear that I did not think 'He' was awful....but that the behaviour of trying to bite and hit me was.

 

He apologised in the car and I eventually got out of him the reason he got so cross was because where he was waiting for me was busy and people kept bumping into him - I never knew he found that an issue in school.

 

He also said that '5 minutes is like 5 hours for kids'! - I know he has trouble with the concept of time, and he is really bad and being able to tell 5 minutes in terms of waitring time from an hour etc.

 

He's still not been able to put into words exactly how or why he got so cross, and why he couldn't just come in and say 'mum, hurry up please' or something like that.

 

He's lost TV time tonight now but has accepted that and is happily playing with some toys he hasn't dug out for ages.

 

But I have noticed that he is never able to express in words feelings like anger/sadness/frustration etc and those are the times he will hit instead.

 

Do any of you have the same trouble, and what do you do to help them express themselves?

 

I tried using a 'chart' tonight that the ed psch suggested - ie, scale of 1 - 10, 1 being not angry at all, 10 being very angry etc, and that at least got him to tell me he was angry.

 

Sorry I've waffled a bit - any suggestions gratefully accepted!

[KateBall]

I musta been talking for less than five minutes when j came into the class and started hitting me because he'd been 'waiting' and then proceeded to get on the floor and grab my legs and attempt to bite me!

 

 

Oh yes this bit I recognise definitely. My ds will not wait at all and will come and hit me if I'm taking too long to talk to someone or looking at things in a shop or museum or whatever. The only thing I manage to achieve sometimes is to tell him the consequence of him doing this will be xyz or perhaps by distracting him but actually the only thing that usually stops it is if I move on. Interested to know if anyone has any other tactic.

[Mumble]

Hi Lisa <'>

 

Sorry you're feeling a bit low (right use of sorry, right? ) - I think there are several separate issues here and it's probably easier to target them one by one.

 

Firstly, the 'anger scale' seems to have worked and seems to be something useful to use more widely. I think others here have used them so will be able to give you more advice. Perhaps help J to identify what he can do to make things better himself depending on where he feels he is on the scale.

 

Secondly, time. J's only Year 3 and from my experience over half the pupils at this age won't have a clue about the concept of time. Perhaps get him an egg timer or similar that he can use in these circumstances. Show him that it takes 5 minutes to run through and make sure he knows that once it's gone through he can come to you, but teach him how to get your attention, which leads to -

 

Third - knowing how do get your attention and to 'join' others. This is something I really really struggle with and is common in AS - knowing how to join in a conversation - how and when to interject. Probably a 'biggy' to work on with him, but remembering that he may have trouble in transferring how to do this from one situation/setting to another

 

Fourth - related to above - he may not distinguish between children and adults - so the interactions may be age-inappropriate

 

Fifth - On age-appropriate, you need to remember the 2/3 thing (which doesn't help when he's tall and so looks older than a year 3 kid)

 

Sixth - On the awful kid. I wonder how he is using awful - whether it is in the awful variety or awful variety - he may not be telling the difference between the two and in addition it may be just a 'word' that has very little meaning to him, and defiantly not in the same way it obviously does to you. I'm struggling with this I guess because I'm not sure what it means really other than bad which isn't always used as bad.

 

Seventh - trouble identifying and expressing feelings is common in AS - and as you know it's something I have problems with DX'ed more extreme than AS. Talking from the point of view of knowing now that it's a problem I can sort of explain how it is - I get feelings in me but have no idea what they are or how they would be described. I can cope if I'm obviously happy/sad/angry, but anything more complex - and particularly a combination or feelings, can make me feel really weird because I simply have no way of verbalising them and so making others understand. And if someone asks how I feel, that is incredibly frustrating because I simply don't know. I can learn vocabulary but I can't link it to a feeling I have. And it's not something I can just learn, because I don't seem to be able to make any solid link between these feelings and words.

 

Eighth - the people bumping into him - it was that happening that sent me right over the edge on Tuesday - seems a small thing but to someone having problems sensory wise, it's a huge assault.

 

Ninth - a final thing that occurred to me - did you tell J you were talking to the teacher about the positive note? I can't stand people praising me or talking about something I've done well. He may have a problem with praise, couldn't verbalise this and used the only way he knew to get what was upsetting him to stop.

 

None of this excuses his behaviour, but I would suggest it is likely to be quite complex - rather than one thing causing what happened. He's likely to be anxious at the moment with the various assessments happening (as you probably are) and probably isn't sure how to explain this to you.

 

I hope he has a more peaceful evening <'> and that you do too <'>

[llisa32]

Thanks both <'>

 

I think I've just realised why he does something else that had been puzzling me...

 

If someone is visiting the house, or he's waiting for someone to turn up he will literally sit and wait until they turn up - no matter if it is in 5 mins time or 5 hours time.

 

He won't go play with his xbox etc or do anything...cept wait.....because he says 'he needs to be 'ready'.

 

Now I guess if he struggles so much with how long in real terms 5 mins or an hour actually is then he never really knows when someone will turn up....and he doesn't like to be interupted and thus will wait!

 

Mind you.....I have not much clue how to help him with that...but least I think I know why!

[Mumble]

Is there a TV programme that he really likes that he has a good sense of? The reason I ask is that for one pupil I found talking in terms of 'Simpsons episodes' worked. So something that was happening in an hour was happening in two Simpsons time - didn't mean he watched two simpsons, but he seemed to understand what that would feel like.

 

Lead to some strange conversations:

I'm hungry, when's lunch?

In three Simpsons time.

 

Just an idea

[Bard]

This whole description, and Mumble's answers fit my B exactly.

Wow!

Thanks again for the insight MTM. I'd sort of worked out what was happening with him, but it took over a year to really understand and adapt. And I could just have posted here and been halfway in a matter of minutes. I didn't know this place existed when B was in Y4, and it would have been so useful!

[krystaltps]

Is there a TV programme that he really likes that he has a good sense of? The reason I ask is that for one pupil I found talking in terms of 'Simpsons episodes' worked. So something that was happening in an hour was happening in two Simpsons time - didn't mean he watched two simpsons, but he seemed to understand what that would feel like.

 

Lead to some strange conversations:

I'm hungry, when's lunch?

In three Simpsons time.

 

Just an idea

 

Mumble - that's exactly how time works in our house! I use the Simpsons because it's a nice twenty minutes, so we can half it or double it, etc.

[Nic m]

lisa,

 

this is/was a problem in our house but it is getting easier with both my understanding and my daughters own understanding of things.

aggression was an issue when she was younger but it is getting easier now.

hope you get through this with greater ease than we did.

mumble, bard is spot on i wish i had access to your knowledge a few years ago it would have helped me enormously.

It still is helping, just so you know.

nic

[lisa35]

Me too Mumble, it so helps when i read your posts to help my 12 yr old, he cant verbalise feelings either

You re fab!

Thanks

Lisa

[pearl]

Only just spotted this llisa <'> It sounds like you handled the situation really well, JP used to be v similar but is sooo much calmer & more patient these days.

 

Excellent post Mumble. Can I ask you something? When you say you can't stand praise (I didn't know that) do you feel the same on here? So if I say, excellent post, does that make you cringe, or is it different online, is it just face to face stuff you don't like?

[Mumble]

Excellent post Mumble. Can I ask you something? When you say you can't stand praise (I didn't know that) do you feel the same on here? So if I say, excellent post, does that make you cringe, or is it different online, is it just face to face stuff you don't like?

That's an interesting point. And I think there is a difference; well several differences actually:

 

There is an indirectness to you saying 'excellent post Mumble' - you can't see me so there's no pressure for me to know how to respond, you're offline (currently) so there's no time pressure to work out a response, this may sound silly but because I'm not really 'Mumble' it's easier because it doesn't seem as about me as you're not using my name.

 

'Excellent post' refers very specifically to the one post above. Whether I agree with you or not in this instance (and being a perfectionist and extremely critical of myself doesn't help), I don't need to incorporate anything you've said into anything wider about myself, hence I'm not dealing with conflicting ways of thinking about myself and the 'excellent' description above. Even Bard's MTM I view like OGB - it's a name rather than a behavioural descriptor, and that I can cope with.

 

In relation to the above, one thing that I know I can do well, that is a strength that really counteracts many of my difficulties, is write. I do find it difficult to think about the 'verbal' me and the 'written' me, and I constantly worry, especially with university, that I will be accused of plagiarism or cheating in some other way as there is such a gulf between my written work and the way I talk about my work. Thankfully I have a fantastic supervisor who seems to understand this difference, but I think what I'm saying is that your description of my post, which is writing, doesn't contradict other messages about my writing and is hence something I can cope with. I think if I met you and you were to say 'Excellent speaking skills Mumble' I would know that there was an element of false praise making it very difficult for me to trust you and to know what to believe, leading to confusion and uncertainty.

 

Does anything in that answer your question?

 

Edit: Sorry for taking over your thread, Lisa

Edited January 26, 2008 by Mumble

[pearl]

Yes, it does, that made things much clearer. I can identify a bit with verbal/written skills, I'm far more articulate online than verbally.

 

And sorry too, llisa - seemed like a good time to ask.

[KarenT]

Lisa did you get my PM?

 

Karen

x

[CarolJ]

Oh yes this bit I recognise definitely. My ds will not wait at all and will come and hit me if I'm taking too long to talk to someone or looking at things in a shop or museum or whatever. The only thing I manage to achieve sometimes is to tell him the consequence of him doing this will be xyz or perhaps by distracting him but actually the only thing that usually stops it is if I move on. Interested to know if anyone has any other tactic.

 

My DS was recently excluded from school becuase of hitting because we had implemented a no hitting plan usign pecs at home it transferred his hitting into the school. But school stopped doing the plan and I wasnt aware until he was excluded . He was using it as a means to gain attention and to communicate. It was learned behaviour. basically he realised that if he hits he gets fireworks and this negative attention reinforced the behaviours. He hits me, my partner, the dog the only ones he doesnt hit are his sister and the cat!

 

He doesnt have any verbal ability and we communicate via PECs so verbal threats are useless. I just show him "no hitting" symbol and turn my back on him and walk away. He too doesnt like my attention being given elsewhere and thats when he hits me or the person I am talking to. Its like he wants me to give him full attention all the time which is impossible. I try to give him all the attention I can but he has tolearn to accept that there are times when he cant have my full attention. He responds really well to praise as all children do. I find that praising him when he is calm and good really go a long way. symbols for hugs and happy really help. Mummy is happy!

 

One of the hardest things I find is that my son often hits me when I am out in public and peoples reactoins are his reward.

 

He still hits and it hurts but hes finally realising that I will immediately stop what I am doing and walk away from him. He sometimes hitswhen I am playing with him and giving him full attention which is why I think its a way of communicating. He is learnign that if he hits whatever we are doing stops and I walk away. At first he started to hit more and thats why I had problems atschool but hes now learning hitting is not acceptable. Its been hard going but perseverance has paid off. I know the hitting is also done out of sheer frustration but he has to learn another way of communicating.

 

I dont know if the PECS symbols can help a child who is verbal. I find with my daughter the more language I use the less she listens. She doesnt hit but she argues continually as a way of keeping my attention. Its a pointless frustratating exercise sometimes and I have to tell her Timeout and I walk away and she realises that mummy isnt going to argue anymore. I wonder if I should use a PECs symbol for "No backchat"?

 

Or maybe a symbol for "mummys time out"

[Mumble]

I find with my daughter the more language I use the less she listens.

This part of your post really struck me. I don't know much about your situation, so could be completely wrong, but this in many ways sounds like me and can be at the root of some of my difficulties. I can hear fine (too well!) but not comprehend at full speed. I could repeat back to me what was said word for word without having taken the meaning in. Unfortunately, many people's strategy when confronted with someone who doesn't respond immediately is to fill the 'awkward silence' and either repeat what they have said (louder! - ouch!) or to say it in a different way or to add to it and say something completely different. All of these simply give me more to take in and process making the processing I was working on (the original question/statement) fail. I haven't yet got the confidence to ask people to be quiet and tell them I'm thinking, and what appears on the outside is someone who has shut down and withdrawn from the world. On the inside my brain is working overtime to process something, whilst at the same time I'm getting anxious at more information coming in and not giving an answer and at how I am coming across to the other person.

 

The difference that communicating with someone who understands this makes is astonishing. I have a fantastic supervisor at uni who (nearly) always remembers this and responds appropriately - he gives me time to process and to answer and it makes a huge difference to my understanding. But unfortunately he is one of a very rare breed and I need to be able to cope with this in the way people usually respond to my silence. I'm not sure how yet, but it's something I would like to work on