Borderline AS

[Mumble]

I have been asked to start this discussion here - it was more of a side-issue to another thread and I know it has previously been discussed before.

 

I'm a professor of psychology. I also have borderline AS

I was wondering how you, particularly as a professor of psychology, define 'borderline AS'? We have had many debates on this forum about issues around diagnosis and particularly the increased prevalence of self-dx and whether one can have 'traits' of autism. These are particular issues I have because, and you see this a lot for instance on student forums, the potential exists (and does happen) for the diagnosis and difficulties of those on the spectrum to be ignored because of an increase in people saying 'oh, everyone does that' or 'everyone has those characteristics'. I think it's particularly interesting to explore where, if we talk about a spectrum, AS/HFA ends and the edges of 'normality' begin.

 

[something_different]

often i have heard people say, that everyone has autistic traits.

 

i think it may be 'normal' to have a couple of little quirks, like hanging washing out a certain way, folding towels a certain way etc.

 

i think with as/hfa it is more that a couple of little quirks, and will impact on your daily life. Their is a lot more to autism than not being good with ppl and appearing a bit rude, also seen as a trait or ppl may use having asd traits as an excuse for rudeness, or organising things in a certain way.

 

 

sorry i'm not v good at explaining things.

 

 

don't know if i have even answerd what u were asking or not!

 

[ian stuart-hamilton]

To understand what is meant by 'borderline' you need to understand what a trait is. A trait is basically a feature that everyone has, but at differing strengths. For example, we all possess the trait of height, but clearly we aren't all the same height. The same goes for a lot of psychological characteristics. For example, we all possess traits like neuroticism (basically, a measure of how much a person worries). Everybody worries about things to some extent, but some people are more neurotic than others. It's very obvious that someone who worries a very great deal needs treatment because worrying irrationally and all the time is damaging to the person and often to people around them.

 

So it follows from this that someone who gets a very high score on a test of neuroticism probably needs treating. Let's assume that the test can give scores from 0 (not worried about anything, ever) to 100 (constantly and irrationally worried over literally everything). Someone who gets a score of 100 will obviously need treating. Okay, fine - what about someone who gets a score of 95? Or 90? Or 85? Or 80? Where do you say the borderline is? If you decide that anyone with a score above 90 needs treating, what about someone with a score of 89? Are we saying that they aren't neurotic? Quite clearly someone with a score of 89 has a lot more in common with someone with a score of 99 than someone with a score of 19. So why can't someone with a score of 89 be treated?

 

The situation is a bit like looking at where one colour in the rainbow stops and another ends. From a distance it is obvious that a rainbow consists of a few basic colours - red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. But if you look closely at the colours you will see that the colours gradually blend into each other. So, for example, it is extremely difficult (indeed arguably impossible) to judge accurately where red ends and orange begins.

 

This is the heart of the problem about drawing borderlines on a scale of measurement that is continuous - whatever you choose as the borderline inevitably leads to arguments that you are excluding people close to the borderline. The problem is one that the medical and psychological professions have battled with for decades and there is no simple solution.

 

The reality is that when an expert is looking at borderline cases and trying to make a diagnosis, it would be very unusual for them to rely on the test scores alone. What generally happens in the case of borderline cases is that a judgement is made based on the total picture presented by the person - overall, do they present sufficient symptoms (even if they are relatively mild in themselves) to be considered to have the condition in question? In addition, a judgement will be made about the functional status of the person - for example, do the symptoms impinge on their daily activities to an extent that could be considered detrimental? These are difficult decisions to make and this is why health care professionals are at such pains to explain why every case has to be decided on its individual merits. But people aren't classified simply on the basis of a very mechanical interpretation of their test scores.

 

The other side of the borderline problem is that this also means that people who don't have a particular condition will nonetheless have some features of the condition. I know that a lot of people with AS have no especial maths skills, but the fact remains that a lot do, and close genetic relatives of people with AS often have traits that indicate they are good at maths and organising (hence why e.g. many relatives of people with AS are engineers, accountants, etc). This doesn't mean people have 'got' to share these traits (and indeed not all people with AS are necessarily great at maths), but given a large enough sample of people, these attributes are far more likely to be there than would be predicted by chance.

 

So folks who are on the borderline may not be all that different in many respects from people a little away from the borderline and indeed other people may share features in common.

 

I hope this makes sense, but I'll be happy to elaborate on any of the points I've made.

Edited January 9, 2009 by ian stuart-hamilton

[baddad]

As I've said many times in the past (and I'm really only paraphrasing the likes of Tony Attwood and Ali G sorry Borat sorry Simon BC) according to most women around 99% of men will fit the criteria for Asperger's syndrome these days...

Casual diagnosis is becoming the norm for many, many disorders (ASD, AS, ADHD, OCD, SADS, Dyslexia, Depression, Bi-Polar etc etc) and unfortunately I think it does have a knock on effect even with professionals...

If you think of a consultant paediatrician or something who's had the same child show up in their office three our four times with a 'home' dx of whatever it must be pretty gruelling. Imagine then, when that child shows up for the FIFTH time with mum waving an 'official' diagnosis from a Harley Street consultant she's paid four-hundred quid to for a ten minute consultation, and what would you do in the paediatrician's shoes? I think you'd have to be a real martyr not to just get the rubber-stamp out and get rid of them, don't you?

 

The additional thing here is those who say they're a 'bit' AS or a 'bit' OCD or whatever usually use that expression purely to justify their most flagrantly inconsiderate or negative characteristics. How many times have you heard someone saying 'Oh, I tend to be overly trusting and loyal, and i think that's down to me being a bit AS'?, whereas 'my husband's a selfish, inconsiderate b*stard - do you think he has AS' is something we see on the boards here all the time in one guise or another.

 

To quote Oscar Wilde - there's only one thing worse than an autistic person using their autism as an excuse for inconsiderate behaviour, and that's a non-autistic person using their autism as an excuse for inconsiderate behaviour' [The Picture Of Dorian Gray's Bum - unpublished manuscript. 1873]

 

As I've typed this the words 'Cat' and 'Pigeons' have come to mind, so I will state for the record that I am not dismissing all private dx's or parents concerned for their yet-to-be-diagnosed children out of hand, and the above observations do not in any way refer to anyone using this forum.

 

I did have something else I wanted to say but I've completely forgotten what it was - I'm probably a bit amnesiac. Or maybe I'm just tired? This narcolepsy is really getting me dowzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

 

 

[Mumble]

Pigeons?? We've had cats before but where did the pigeons come from? (Yes, I know, refugees from Trafalgar Square...)

 

Ian - thank you for your explanation which confirms my understanding. I think what you say about the mathematical aspects will be useful in reference to the recent thread on pre-natal screening in relation to SBC's comments on mathematics. I would hope (and from my experience this is the case) that professionals would never solely use test scores in the process of diagnosis of ASD (in all cases not just borderline cases) but that these would be indicative of areas for discussion. I know that when I was diagnosed, the diagnostic interview was really more important in that it was used to explore the reliability of my answers on the screening instruments.

 

I'm not sure however if my question is answered by this - is there such a thing as a diagnosis of borderline AS? Surely given what you say about traits, it is possible to have cases where it is less clear cut (i.e. borderline), but that then following professional diagnostic intervention, the diagnosis is either confirmed or not and the individual either receives a diagnosis of AS or not AS - i.e. the diagnostic process (particularly when we are talking about adults) is about removing the word 'borderline'? Similarly someone who is not diagnosed I would describe (and hope they would describe themselves) as having something like 'suspected AS' and the diagnosis is about confirming this and saying yes, this individual is AS or no, they fall outside of the diagnostic criteria.

 

It is people who make a self-dx and say that they have AS without a professional diagnosis that I find concerning - they do not necessarily have AS but simply suspect it (for whatever reason) so should not be saying they have it whether they add undiagnosed or not. We would not say we had a serious medical condition without having it officially diagnosed by an appropriately qualified medical practitioner so it shouldn't be any different in the case of ASDs. Perhaps it would be less of a problem if these self diagnosed people were simply those in the process of being diagnosed, but unfortunately these individuals appear to be a small subset of a group who want to attach the label to themselves for whatever reason and do a great disservice to those of us who live everyday with an ASD and can't decide when it suits us to have it and when it doesn't. Which brings me to BD's post:

 

Casual diagnosis is becoming the norm for many, many disorders (ASD, AS, ADHD, OCD, SADS, Dyslexia, Depression, Bi-Polar etc etc) and unfortunately I think it does have a knock on effect even with professionals...

If you think of a consultant paediatrician or something who's had the same child show up in their office three our four times with a 'home' dx of whatever it must be pretty gruelling. Imagine then, when that child shows up for the FIFTH time with mum waving an 'official' diagnosis from a Harley Street consultant she's paid four-hundred quid to for a ten minute consultation, and what would you do in the paediatrician's shoes? I think you'd have to be a real martyr not to just get the rubber-stamp out and get rid of them, don't you?

I hope that this isn't the case, but unfortunately I suspect that I would be being naive to hope this doesn't happen - even if not widespread, the first part of 'buying a diagnosis' privately does appear to happen and worries me greatly. If diagnoses are made where inappropriate (and to misquote again as I usually do, one essential aspect of the diagnosis is that the symptoms have a lifelong effect across daily function), and people see what is said to be AS as AS when what they have been told is AS may not be AS, it may become all too easy to say, "oh AS, is that all" and fail to understand (even more so) what it means for the individual living with it 24/7.

 

 

I hope that anything I've written doesn't upset anyone - that's not my intention - I'm purely interested in debate on these issues.

 

[something_different]

i would agree that you either have ASD or don't have ASD.

 

if a person is unsure or does not have a dx, then they could say they have some traits of as, not that they have as.

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Interesting topic. I must say, I've found I've had to hold my tongue when people have commented 'oh we all have autistic traits, 'funny little ways', etc etc. I agree that everyone has their little idiosyncrasies ('funny little ways'), but there is a cut off point when it becomes noticeable - rigidity in terms of sticking to routines, being obsessional, inability/difficulty in interacting appropriately with others, - basically the 'triad of impairments'. I think one or two 'funny little ways' is just that, but when there's an accumulation of things, that's when it can amount to AS.

 

I know that self diagnosing is a controversial subject. I personally, don't think someone should say eg 'I have Aspergers' if this has not been formally diagnosed. However, at the risk of contradicting myself (in fact, I am contradicting myself!), I know only too well how frustrating it can be if you believe (after a great deal of research) you have autistic traits, yet professionals will not acknowledge/diagnose it (the diagnostic process can take years). Call it 'gut instinct', strong suspicion, whatever, but I felt reasonably sure my son has AS, yet this was dismissed by my son's GP and HV - it was only after perseverence/seeking other opinions (which took 2 years) that this hunch was proven and my son received a diagnosis. In addition, some professionals do say 'borderline and try to leave it at that so as to avoid wrongly 'labelling', so it's unclear whether one could/should say they have it AS or not.

 

Clearly, there's still a lot of ignorance about what AS is and how it can affect people. This coupled with funding/budgets, can all prevent someone with AS receiving the help and support that they need.

 

I agree with Baddad that there may well be instances of people paying for a diagnosis, when there isn't one. Whilst the diagnostic process can be a frustrating and lengthy road, I guess it's there to try and ensure that 'labels' are correctly made.

 

I recall a particularly controversial news article in the Times (about a year ago) stating that it was fashionable to be diagnosed with Autism (and not only that, parents can cash in on it too) - must say, I saw red reading that!!! I find it hard to believe that anyone would put themselves through such a rollercoaster in seeking a diagnosis, or indeed that it would actually be possible (since numerous professionals can be involved over a long period of time) to 'feign' having autism for financial gain.

 

Caroline.

Edited January 9, 2009 by cmuir

[ian stuart-hamilton]

I'm not sure however if my question is answered by this - is there such a thing as a diagnosis of borderline AS?

 

 

If you have AS, you have AS. The 'borderline' bit simply means that the symptoms are not very pronounced compared with someone with typical AS. But 'borderline AS' is not a diagnosis separate from AS (unless there's some research literature I've missed, which is quite possible). The 'borderline' is simply a qualifier.

 

I'd also like to say that I too am unhappy about self-diagnosis and the tendency to label everyone with an obsession about something as 'Asperger'. I think that AS is far commoner than has yet been realised, but it's still only applicable to a tiny minority of the population.

 

And just to reiterate - the diagnosis is more than just scores on tests or having a couple of quirky behaviours.

 

 

I recall a particularly controversial news article in the Times (about a year ago) stating that it was fashionable to be diagnosed with Autism (and not only that, parents can cash in on it too) - must say, I saw red reading that!!! I find it hard to believe that anyone would put themselves through such a rollercoaster in seeking a diagnosis, or indeed that it would actually be possible (since numerous professionals can be involved over a long period of time) to 'feign' having autism for financial gain.

I recall from my student days in the late 1970s that there was supposedly a similar fashion then (this of course overlooks the fact that if a particular condition enters the news, clinicians are more inclined to identify it and it has nothing to do with being 'trendy'). As for the faking the condition for money allegations, it's well documented that people will go to extraordinary lengths to fake physical conditions as well in order to claim various benefits. This doesn't deny that ASD isn't real, just that some people are prepared to exploit it in the same way that faking having a physically wasting disease doesn't deny that such diseases exist.

Edited January 10, 2009 by ian stuart-hamilton

[warrenpenalver]

To add to mumble, i find it highly concerning if private clinicions are diagnosing innappropriately especially when they are supposed to be qualified professionals.

 

I can see why someone would want the convienience of seeking a private diagnosis rather than potentially waiting several years as you may do in the NHS. Obviously its highly concerning if such clinicians cant be trusted to provide an accurate assessment. After all one shouldnt take a diagnosis of an ASD lightly as it can have major effects on your life. Certain careers may no longer be open to you not to mention if the dx is wrong the wrong treatments may make things worse not better.

[Mumble]

If you have AS, you have AS. The 'borderline' bit simply means that the symptoms are not very pronounced compared with someone with typical AS. But 'borderline AS' is not a diagnosis separate from AS (unless there's some research literature I've missed, which is quite possible). The 'borderline' is simply a qualifier.

I wonder, if an individual has an official diagnosis of AS, how useful such a qualifier is? After all, to obtain such a diagnosis the issues that an individual faces need to present significant difficulties across all areas of functioning. Such a qualifier, although perhaps useful to an individual in helping them understand their diagnosis (), may decrease public understanding and intensify a belief that AS is 'just quirks' or 'mild' (as we've had discussions on this forum about before). And of course, what is 'typical AS' anyway?

 

And no, I can't understand why anyone would want to have an ASD or live as if they did if they didn't - I know there are often discussions of the positives to being on the ASD spectrum (the mathematical arguments underlie part of the pre-natal screening debate) but the very fact that ASD is a recognised diagnosis suggests that the difficulties individuals face are significant.

 

As for the faking the condition for money allegations, it's well documented that people will go to extraordinary lengths to fake physical conditions as well in order to claim various benefits. This doesn't deny that ASD isn't real, just that some people are prepared to exploit it in the same way that faking having a physically wasting disease doesn't deny that such diseases exist.

I think that's a very important point - and certainly it doesn't deny that my ASD isn't very real - but there is a risk that wider public perceptions will be skewed if more people come across 'not quite right' cases and further that AS is either seen as an excuse (something I fight against every day - I will not allow my dx to be used like this) or that people understand, even less than currently, what it means, and dismiss AS as 'just a few quirks' and hold the opinion that we are simply making a fuss when we come up against something where being AS does present a particular challenge.

 

 

[Canopus]

I've noticed a comment about mild AS on the IET Forums

[lbj]

Prof Stuart-Hamilton (and anyone alse who has an opinion for that matter), what effect do you anticipate the earlier diagnosis of ASD will have in this regard. My son has just been diagnosed with an ASD at three having been watched since the age of two. His major manifestations are quite profound speech delay (and broader language difficulties) and motor manifestations (jumping and flapping). He's happy, friendly and, I think, really quite bright - he feeds himself (tho' he does have a very restricted diet), partially dressed himself, is mostly potty trained. The language and the jumping/flapping would be expected to improve over time even without the early interventions he should soon be recieving. If he's bright and motivated to overcome his difficulties then surely, with appropriate support, there's every hope that he will grow up to be pretty functional? I understand that even at a neurological level things are somewhat malleable especially when very young. Will this then mean that he becomes "borderline" where he wasn't before (I hasten to add they've not tried to append any label of functioning level to him as yet which I suppose, is to allow for this to some degree)?

 

I'm a bit dismayed that the label gets added to those in the worst degree of difficulty and anyone who's managing (even if only barely), which may be due to all sorts of circumstantial things as well as where they are on the spectrum, gets no official label. This helps to fuel the self-diagnosis trend and also helps to maintain the negative image of ASDs.

 

Very interesting thread!

 

janine

Edited January 10, 2009 by lbj

[bid]

Briefly would say that personally I don't think it's a very helpful phrase for those of us with a full dx and in the wider context, for all the reasons already cited

 

Bid

Edited January 10, 2009 by bid

[Canopus]

Prof Stuart-Hamilton (and anyone alse who has an opinion for that matter), what effect do you anticipate the earlier diagnosis of ASD will have in this regard. My son has just been diagnosed with an ASD at three having been watched since the age of two.

 

I know a clinical psychologist who is very reluctant to diagnose someone for AS if they are under 6 years old. He says that many young children who are diagnosed as having AS or certain types of ASD grow out of the condition by the time they are 7 or 8 years old but the reality is they never had the condition to start with. The signs and symptoms of AS are far more likely to be genuine for a 6 year old than a 3 year old.

 

[lbj]

I know a clinical psychologist who is very reluctant to diagnose someone for AS if they are under 6 years old. He says that many young children who are diagnosed as having AS or certain types of ASD grow out of the condition by the time they are 7 or 8 years old but the reality is they never had the condition to start with. The signs and symptoms of AS are far more likely to be genuine for a 6 year old than a 3 year old.

 

Interesting you say that! It may just be wishful thinking but I've the suspiscion that given a moderately supportive environment (even without specialist input) and some serious SaLT, he would be a pretty unremarkable child by seven anyway.

 

Do you think co-morbids have a lot to do with the development of a person with ASD and with the manifestations of ASD? My son seems to be slightly hypo-sensitive in most areas and I think that if he was bombarded with unpleasant sensory input then, with his communication difficulties, he'd be a very much more troubled child than he is now.

 

janine

 

[billabong]

As I've said many times in the past (and I'm really only paraphrasing the likes of Tony Attwood and Ali G sorry Borat sorry Simon BC) according to most women around 99% of men will fit the criteria for Asperger's syndrome these days...

 

..............

 

The additional thing here is those who say they're a 'bit' AS or a 'bit' OCD or whatever usually use that expression purely to justify their most flagrantly inconsiderate or negative characteristics. How many times have you heard someone saying 'Oh, I tend to be overly trusting and loyal, and i think that's down to me being a bit AS'?, whereas 'my husband's a selfish, inconsiderate b*stard - do you think he has AS' is something we see on the boards here all the time in one guise or another.

 

 

 

Sorry, I still haven't worked my way round multiple-quoting yet. Can I add my ten-penceworth as one of those 'wimmin' people? My own survey shows that 'most' women, on hearing about traits of a male partner diagnosed or undiagnosed AS, will respond "but all men are like that" rather than saying "so my partner must be affected by AS". I could interpret the former as 'so therefore no man has Asperger's syndrome', rather than that 99% of men 'fit' the criteria for Asperger's syndrome. I've only come across one woman who has truly recognised traits in her partner.

 

By the way, finding out more and more about AS has made me much more appreciative and understanding of my husband - whatever he actually 'is' (bearing in mind he's set against going for diagnosis) and I'm more likely to attribute his better qualities to AS than not. Whilst a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing (don't let me go to car maintenance classes again), a goodly gathering of knowledge and wisdom from this forum and elsewhere dunnarf help. The downside of having a partner who recognises and accepts his AS-ness is that I get accused (usually with humourful irony) of being an illogical, emotional NT!!! Or was that nit-wit?

 

Billabong

 

 

[coolblue]

Interesting thread. I think the whole question hinges on whether AS and other ASDs are discrete conditions caused by distinct genetic and/or environmental factors, or if they are the emergent properties of a range of different factors, where those factors vary within a normal (in the statistical sense) population.

 

The diagnostic criteria for ASD's (impaired social interaction & communication, plus restricted or repetitive behaviours) are each so broad that there could be many causes for them (different causes in different people). Personally, I'm increasingly convinced that sensory abnormalities produce a lot of autistic characteristics, certainly those of AS. If this is the case, you could have one group of people who share the same cause for their sensory impairments who clearly fit the profile for AS, and another group with similar symptoms, whose sensory impairments have arisen from a different cause or causes and who sort-of fit the profile for AS.

 

What is desperately needed is a bottom-up, fine-grained analysis of the patterns of impairments shown by individuals, so any clustering can be identified, rather than the current top-down approach of forcing people into pre-defined and probably inaccurate diagnostic categories.

 

 

[ian stuart-hamilton]

Prof Stuart-Hamilton (and anyone alse who has an opinion for that matter), what effect do you anticipate the earlier diagnosis of ASD will have in this regard. My son has just been diagnosed with an ASD at three having been watched since the age of two.

For obvious reasons, I hope you understand I cannot discuss individual cases. However, the following general comment may be pertinent. A considerable number of clinical psychologists and psychiatrists are loathe to make firm diagnoses in very young clients because, as has been rightly said, some symptoms can be 'grown out of'. But that's not the same as saying 'because we don't have a label, there's nothing we can do'. Common sense dictates that if a child has an atypical development this needs special attention, even if the labelling can wait.

 

It's certainly true that some behaviours will lessen as the child gets older, and I suspect this mellowing process will continue through adulthood (but we have no firm proof of this as yet - hence why I'm doing this research on people with ASD aged over 40). But again, this does not mean that additional training/education won't also be useful.

 

My son was diagnosed as having AS when he was 3 going on 4. In his case there was a very marked preference for routine, hand flapping and extreme speech delay coupled with extremely good maths abilities. He spent some time at a local special pre-school unit (luckily our local NHS had one) and then he started at a mainstream school. I have to say that the support we've received from all his schools has been tremendous. The teachers know what to expect and his fellow pupils were 'primed' about his condition. After a couple of volcanic temper tantrums in his first year at school, he has settled down and some of the more extreme behaviours have disappeared whilst others have mellowed. But I seriously doubt if all this would have happened without procedures being put in place.

 

However, this is just one case and each has to be judged on its own merits. But this does not deny the general principle that remedies are available even without a 'label'.

 

[Canopus]

Interesting you say that! It may just be wishful thinking but I've the suspiscion that given a moderately supportive environment (even without specialist input) and some serious SaLT, he would be a pretty unremarkable child by seven anyway.

 

The effects of AS are reduced or increased by the environment one is in. I once formed an analogy involving seeds and soil types.

 

Do you think co-morbids have a lot to do with the development of a person with ASD and with the manifestations of ASD? My son seems to be slightly hypo-sensitive in most areas and I think that if he was bombarded with unpleasant sensory input then, with his communication difficulties, he'd be a very much more troubled child than he is now.

 

Yes. I think that a high proportion of people with AS have at least one other co-morbid.

 

[baddad]

Hi again - innerseting stuff!

 

A couple of quickies (fnar fnar):

 

As for the faking the condition for money allegations, it's well documented that people will go to extraordinary lengths to fake physical conditions as well in order to claim various benefits.

 

When i mentioned people 'buying' diagnosis etc, the benefits implications weren't the foremost in my mind, but it is one of the reasons. Much more likely is that a parent (or an adult) is looking for 'answers' to some problem's, and the diagnosis provides a neat explanation. The psychological investment in this kind of affirmation is much more 'valuable' to the person looking for the answer (whether parent or adult) than any benefit payments they might receive...

If you think of a parent who has a child whose behaviour is aggressive/confrontational etc then it could be far more comforting for the parent to have a diagnosis to 'blame' it on rather than to consider the other factors that can provide the basis for such behaviours. As i said, you rarely get people speculating about any of the 'home diagnoses' i've mentioned above as an explanation for their own or their child's positive traits...

 

 

Sorry, I still haven't worked my way round multiple-quoting yet. Can I add my ten-penceworth as one of those 'wimmin' people? My own survey shows that 'most' women, on hearing about traits of a male partner diagnosed or undiagnosed AS, will respond "but all men are like that" rather than saying "so my partner must be affected by AS". I could interpret the former as 'so therefore no man has Asperger's syndrome', rather than that 99% of men 'fit' the criteria for Asperger's syndrome. I've only come across one woman who has truly recognised traits in her partner.

 

 

Billabong

 

You could, but only for those women who don't make the judgement that male behaviour is indicative of AS, but they're not the women we're talking about! We're talking about preconceptions in either case, rather than reality. Say i had a preconception that some women had a psychological 'need' to view their partners as autistic, that wouldn't imply that the majority who didn' have that need had a psychological imperative to not see their partners as autistic...

hope that makes sense, it did when i thunk it!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

 

 

[Flora]

Tbh, I don't care what people call it. We are the sum of our parts. I think the problems come down to whether you are trying to seek help, either for yourself or someone in your care. A full dx CAN be a key (don't laugh!). But at the end of the day, if you've got a problem that isn't going to go away, sooner or later somebody will be forced to take notice. From my own personal standpoint, I don't really care. I am who I am, and as I'm not looking for anything over and above what I already have then I'm happy to be called a pussy cat or a raving lunatic

 

Flo'

[baddad]

Hya lunatic pussycat

[bid]

My son was diagnosed as having AS when he was 3 going on 4. In his case there was a very marked preference for routine, hand flapping and extreme speech delay coupled with extremely good maths abilities. He spent some time at a local special pre-school unit (luckily our local NHS had one) and then he started at a mainstream school. I have to say that the support we've received from all his schools has been tremendous. The teachers know what to expect and his fellow pupils were 'primed' about his condition. After a couple of volcanic temper tantrums in his first year at school, he has settled down and some of the more extreme behaviours have disappeared whilst others have mellowed. But I seriously doubt if all this would have happened without procedures being put in place.

 

Hi again

 

Sorry to be pedantic ( ) but if your DS had an extreme speech delay, would the dx not have been HFA?

 

I thought that was the main distinguishing dx criteria between the two: AS no language delay, HFA language delay?

 

Bid

 

[warrenpenalver]

I'm happy to be called a pussy cat or a raving lunatic

I prefer raving lunatic It means that the ignorant people are scared of you and leave you alone!!

 

Sorry to be pedantic ( ) but if your DS had an extreme speech delay, would the dx not have been HFA?

 

I thought that was the main distinguishing dx criteria between the two: AS no language delay, HFA language delay?

Thats what i thought but didnt want to say anything not being qualified so to speak!!

 

[Canopus]

What is desperately needed is a bottom-up, fine-grained analysis of the patterns of impairments shown by individuals, so any clustering can be identified, rather than the current top-down approach of forcing people into pre-defined and probably inaccurate diagnostic categories.

 

Some people have told me that they don't think I have AS. Instead they think I am an NT who holds unpopular views and unpopular opinions.

 

 

 

[Karen A]

Interesting thread. I think the whole question hinges on whether AS and other ASDs are discrete conditions caused by distinct genetic and/or environmental factors, or if they are the emergent properties of a range of different factors, where those factors vary within a normal (in the statistical sense) population.

 

The diagnostic criteria for ASD's (impaired social interaction & communication, plus restricted or repetitive behaviours) are each so broad that there could be many causes for them (different causes in different people). Personally, I'm increasingly convinced that sensory abnormalities produce a lot of autistic characteristics, certainly those of AS. If this is the case, you could have one group of people who share the same cause for their sensory impairments who clearly fit the profile for AS, and another group with similar symptoms, whose sensory impairments have arisen from a different cause or causes and who sort-of fit the profile for AS.

 

What is desperately needed is a bottom-up, fine-grained analysis of the patterns of impairments shown by individuals, so any clustering can be identified, rather than the current top-down approach of forcing people into pre-defined and probably inaccurate diagnostic categories.

 

Hi.I think it is recognised that there are other conditions that have an element of what you call ''sensory abnormality''.Sensory integration difficulties can be part of the difficulties experienced in dyspraxia.Some professionals also diagnose sensory integration disorder.However although sensory integration difficulties are also often part of the picture in ASD the significant impairments with a view to a diagnosis of ASD are those that you mention.

Ben had a dx of dyspraxia until a few months ago.It was recognised that he had difficulties with sensory integration.However he now also has a dx of AS.Karen.

[ian stuart-hamilton]

Hi again

 

Sorry to be pedantic ( ) but if your DS had an extreme speech delay, would the dx not have been HFA?

 

I thought that was the main distinguishing dx criteria between the two: AS no language delay, HFA language delay?

 

Bid

 

Usually this would be right, but [and I'll spare you the boring details] there were various other factors and AS overall made more sense as a diagnosis. However, it's still ASD when all said and done.

[chris54]

Usually this would be right, but [and I'll spare you the boring details] there were various other factors and AS overall made more sense as a diagnosis. However, it's still ASD when all said and done.

 

My son had a dx of "HFA presenting as AS".( Reason -- speech delay quoted amongst over things)

Edited January 12, 2009 by chris54

[Mumble]

Usually this would be right, but [and I'll spare you the boring details] there were various other factors and AS overall made more sense as a diagnosis. However, it's still ASD when all said and done.

It is my belief that, particularly in older children and especially adults, we would probably be better off just using the term ASD and not having sub-divisions as different ways of using these by different people makes them pretty much redundant anyway.

 

[billabong]

Hi again - innerseting stuff!

 

A couple of quickies (fnar fnar):

 

..................

 

You could, but only for those women who don't make the judgement that male behaviour is indicative of AS, but they're not the women we're talking about! We're talking about preconceptions in either case, rather than reality. Say i had a preconception that some women had a psychological 'need' to view their partners as autistic, that wouldn't imply that the majority who didn' have that need had a psychological imperative to not see their partners as autistic...

hope that makes sense, it did when i thunk it!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

Yes, think I got that, after a bit of brain-cell-stretching !

 

Billabong