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Sally44

Do your children with moderate/severe language difficulties sing songs

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Sally44   

This is something I am just curious about as to whether it could be seen as an indicator of the severity of a speech disorder.

The reason I ask is that I have noticed in another parent support group, that as the language difficulty becomes more severe, the children tend not to sing songs at all. This doesn't appear to be related to whether or not they like to listen to music, or whether or not they play an instrument.

I am assuming that this might be because song lyrics can be rather like poetry, and for someone with a language disorder, the words may not make any sense to them at all. Therefore there is no motivation to sing if there is no understanding behind it.

 

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Karen A   

Hi.My friend's son has profound ASD.He is 11 and is none verbal.Although he has no speech he certainly enjoys singing.He will respond obviously to choruses in church that he enjoys.It is very obvious which ones he likes and which ones he doesn't.Although he cannot use words he certainly sings as I understand it.He loves particular rhythms.

I sing myself and have done since I was very young.I have to say that a lot of the time it is the singing in itself that I enjoy.I do not sing with great thought about the lyrics .

In any case if people had to understand the lyrics to many of the current popular singers in order to appreciate the music then several of the best groups and individuals would be redundant....the lyrics often make no logical sense at all.

OH was very into a particular male artist for many years.If he appreciated the lyrics then I have a problem....they appeared to be mainly about how to muder the girl friend using various horid methods. :D Karen.

Edited by Karen A

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Emma_74   

Connor had a bad time with his speech and language and spent 4 years in s&l therapy (it wasn't related to his asd). He was dx with selective mutism he doesn't like music and doesn't like singing either it would be wonderful if he broke out in a song but it hasnt happened yet.

 

Emma

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Karen A   
Connor had a bad time with his speech and language and spent 4 years in s&l therapy (it wasn't related to his asd). He was dx with selective mutism he doesn't like music and doesn't like singing either it would be wonderful if he broke out in a song but it hasnt happened yet.

 

Emma

 

Hi Emma.I hope you don't mind me asking ? Does Connor have a diagnosis of selective mutism and ASD ? I just wondered because I would think it must be very unusual to have a diagnosis of both. :unsure: I would always have guessed that the specialists would have debated over which dx to give.Professionals must have thought hard in attempting to assess that complex combination. :)

I can understand why it would be so wonderful if he broke out in song. >:D<<'> Karen.

 

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oxgirl   

Hi Sally,

 

My lad is considered 'able' and his speech has always been very advanced for his age but he isn't able to sing. For him it's the speed of the singing that's the problem. He has always needed time to compute what people have said to him and there was always a pause before he answered. With singing it's just too fast for him, he could never find the words fast enough to get them out in time and couldn't pick up a rhythm at all. He is very verbal but has lost any interest he ever had in music and has just given up on it. When he was at primary they taught times tables by getting the kids to stand up and sing them. He could never participate, he was just too slow, his brain didn't work fast enough to allow him to keep up, so he never learnt them until much, much later.

 

~ Mel ~

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Emma_74   

Hi Karen,

 

Connor got a dx of selective mutism when he was 4 from his speech and language therapist and he got his ASD dx in Nov - apparently his S&L problems are nothing to do with the ASD and if he hadn't have had them he would have been dx AS but she couldn't do that because as im sure you are aware with AS you dont have S&L problems even though his wern't related to the ASD.

 

Emma :)

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Karen A   
Hi Karen,

 

Connor got a dx of selective mutism when he was 4 from his speech and language therapist and he got his ASD dx in Nov - apparently his S&L problems are nothing to do with the ASD and if he hadn't have had them he would have been dx AS but she couldn't do that because as im sure you are aware with AS you dont have S&L problems even though his wern't related to the ASD.

 

Emma :)

 

Thanks that is very interesting.It explains why the psychiatrist spent some time debating dx for Ben.Ben had a previous history of dysfluency [stammering]. :) Karen.

 

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Sally44   
I have worked with a number of children and young people with severe learning difficulties who loved singing.

 

Bid :)

 

 

No I don't mean learning difficulties. I mean specifically speach difficulties ie. those using echolalia etc.

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Sally44   
Hi.My friend's son has profound ASD.He is 11 and is none verbal.Although he has no speech he certainly enjoys singing.He will respond obviously to choruses in church that he enjoys.It is very obvious which ones he likes and which ones he doesn't.Although he cannot use words he certainly sings as I understand it.He loves particular rhythms.

I sing myself and have done since I was very young.I have to say that a lot of the time it is the singing in itself that I enjoy.I do not sing with great thought about the lyrics .

In any case if people had to understand the lyrics to many of the current popular singers in order to appreciate the music then several of the best groups and individuals would be redundant....the lyrics often make no logical sense at all.

OH was very into a particular male artist for many years.If he appreciated the lyrics then I have a problem....they appeared to be mainly about how to muder the girl friend using various horid methods. :D Karen.

 

I am making a distinction between liking music and rhythms. My son likes those too and plays drums. But he has severe language difficulties, and I always wondered if his difficulties with understanding of speech was the reason why he never sang. He has just started saying some words from songs eg. "mama mia, here we go again". But that is because he has heard and understood the "here we go again". So I am specifically asking if severe language difficulties would also show themselves in a lack of singing. For example he never sang nursery rhymes, or indeed sang anything. Whenever there was or is singing at school he just sits through it. Eventhough he enjoys the music and the rhythm, he cannot join in verbally.

 

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Sally44   
Hi Sally,

 

My lad is considered 'able' and his speech has always been very advanced for his age but he isn't able to sing. For him it's the speed of the singing that's the problem. He has always needed time to compute what people have said to him and there was always a pause before he answered. With singing it's just too fast for him, he could never find the words fast enough to get them out in time and couldn't pick up a rhythm at all. He is very verbal but has lost any interest he ever had in music and has just given up on it. When he was at primary they taught times tables by getting the kids to stand up and sing them. He could never participate, he was just too slow, his brain didn't work fast enough to allow him to keep up, so he never learnt them until much, much later.

 

~ Mel ~

 

 

That may well be part of it, as difficulties processing language are going to mean you are out of time with everyone else. And I know my son has processing delays as well. I'm just raising the question as to whether it might be a 'red flag'.

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Karen A   
I am making a distinction between liking music and rhythms. My son likes those too and plays drums. But he has severe language difficulties, and I always wondered if his difficulties with understanding of speech was the reason why he never sang. He has just started saying some words from songs eg. "mama mia, here we go again". But that is because he has heard and understood the "here we go again". So I am specifically asking if severe language difficulties would also show themselves in a lack of singing. For example he never sang nursery rhymes, or indeed sang anything. Whenever there was or is singing at school he just sits through it. Eventhough he enjoys the music and the rhythm, he cannot join in verbally.

 

Hi.I think I was not explaining very well.It is difficult to explain to someone who has not witnessed it.

My friend's son does not use words at all.He has very severe ASD.However he does use noises in response to specific music and it is obvious which choruses he likes.Now that may be in response to the rythm or pitch.However to me it is singing.Karen.

 

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Emum   

My daughter has almost no speech (usually if she speaks at all she's on a 2-3 word level, per day!) but she loves to sing, and can sing lyrics fairly fluently. She will also sometimes sing songs which are very relevant to the situation so I believe she does understand the words. For example a few years ago we went to a french village which had been razed by the Nazis during WW2 and left untouched as a memorial ever since, and after we had all walked around in shocked silence for about an hour, she started to sing "Bob the builder can you fix it"

 

Her current favourite song, which she must have learned at school is an old 80's hit. I can't remember the name but it goes "in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps tonight" and she sings most of the words of this very clearly and melodically. Which is weird as I've sung to her since she was a baby and if I ever hit a right note when I do it, it's by complete chance!

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wasuup   
Thanks that is very interesting.It explains why the psychiatrist spent some time debating dx for Ben.Ben had a previous history of dysfluency [stammering]. :) Karen.

 

Actually you can have SM and AS as the SM is not a speech impairment and other than the usual difficulties with communication found in children with AS a child with SM can speak without any speech impairments normally in the environment they feel comfortable in.

 

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wasuup   
Hi Emma.I hope you don't mind me asking ? Does Connor have a diagnosis of selective mutism and ASD ? I just wondered because I would think it must be very unusual to have a diagnosis of both. :unsure: I would always have guessed that the specialists would have debated over which dx to give.Professionals must have thought hard in attempting to assess that complex combination. :)

I can understand why it would be so wonderful if he broke out in song. >:D<<'> Karen.

 

 

Selective Mutism is not unusual in AS or ASD's it is the poor research that has been done on this condition that is the difficulty. SM's incidence on it's own is above that of classic autism. A child who had ASD and SM would be able to communicate in an environment they felt comfortable in despite their underlying difficulties in communication. Children with SM and ASD will usually be well behaved as they are anxious about drawing attention to themselves in environment they feel less comfortable in but social communication/interaction and Non verbal communication will be affected. SM is not a social communication disorder children with SM alone do have friends and interact well Non verbally.

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wasuup   
This is something I am just curious about as to whether it could be seen as an indicator of the severity of a speech disorder.

The reason I ask is that I have noticed in another parent support group, that as the language difficulty becomes more severe, the children tend not to sing songs at all. This doesn't appear to be related to whether or not they like to listen to music, or whether or not they play an instrument.

I am assuming that this might be because song lyrics can be rather like poetry, and for someone with a language disorder, the words may not make any sense to them at all. Therefore there is no motivation to sing if there is no understanding behind it.

 

 

I have noticed that my 2 year old will try and sing and dance to almost anything on Cbeebies. My 4 year old never has and still doesn't. There is sometimes a very wooden twinkle twinkle little star but this quite rare.

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kay74   

Hi, I have twin girls who are both autisitc. One is dx moderate and the other severe. They are both non verbal but one is beginning to vocalise alot and that includes 'singing' nursery rhymes. She only has limited recognised words but certainly tries to 'sing' the whole song and belevies that she is. She cannot make alot of the sounds you need to talk which is her biggest problem, sounds like p , b , t ,m, f so she thinks she saying something but to me and everyone else its unrecognisable as a word. But she is very tuneful with her 'babble' inbetween the odd words she does sing. I hear her humming to herself at night too, which is so cute and its taken 6 years to get here!

This has been quite a recent development though and her twin sister still shows no interest in songs or nursery rhymes or talking but they both do like muscial instruments and making lots of noise. They were very similar at one point but now 1 has leapt ahead with her development. But i too find it very interesting as to wether songs have anything to do with how severe thie language difficulties are and actually what does affect how severe their problems are. I guesss my twins show that every child is different - even identical twins - cos mine are certainly not identical anymore when it comes to development.

 

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Karen A   
Selective Mutism is not unusual in AS or ASD's it is the poor research that has been done on this condition that is the difficulty. SM's incidence on it's own is above that of classic autism. A child who had ASD and SM would be able to communicate in an environment they felt comfortable in despite their underlying difficulties in communication. Children with SM and ASD will usually be well behaved as they are anxious about drawing attention to themselves in environment they feel less comfortable in but social communication/interaction and Non verbal communication will be affected. SM is not a social communication disorder children with SM alone do have friends and interact well Non verbally.

 

Thanks.I have a friend who has a child with SM and know a bit about it.As I know a fair amount about ASD I was attempting to figure out how the professionals could differentiate between the two.I could imagine that there might be a need for more research.Karen.

 

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Emma_74   

when Connor was young he couldnt pronounce a single word correctly the problem was so bad that we ended up in the cleft palate S&L dept even though he doesn't have one.

He knew that nobody outside the family could understand a word he said so he wouldn't talk he spend his whole time in playgroup and nursery not saying a single word but as soon as he got home he wouldn't be quiet!!

Although after 4 years therapy he can now talk clearly and pronounce words he is still selective mute especially at school and with other children because he knows that sometime he cant pronounce things correctly

 

Emma

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giggles   

I am finding this topic very interesting as I have always been told that AS children have no speech issues by some so called 'professionals'

Tyler doesn't speak much.... he will ramble on to himself in his own 'language' but he can't seem to find the right words to us when talking to others. He can repeat words you say to him perfectly and as for singing he can sing every word to all of his favourite songs and even recite whole chunks of films he watches word for word!! He is 4 in July and academically doing really well.... he is years ahead of his class mates for maths skills and music but he speech and language is still a problem. He is getting S&L at the moment but I recently found out its not doing much at ll for him. Here is a little piece of the letter his teacher wrote to the assessment clinic... I would like you to read it just to see what you all think...

 

"Tyler continues to display unusual behviours of lining up drums, symbols, couning numbers. H chosses to play the same ICT game daily, musical instrument game, finding it hard to extend choice. He has continued to receive language enrichment program daily yet his progress was the lowest by far of the groups, especially grammar. Tyler finds it hard to give eye contact and will often ook at the floor when engaged by others. His speech is limited and he usually speaks in 1 - 2 word responses. I am very concerned with his understanding of language and this has hindered access to some parts of the curriculum. When asked questions Tyler will often repeat 1 word from the question back o us or give an unassociated word. He was observed shouting at a child when they tried to put 1 of his drums away at tidy up time, Tyler got the drum back out, lined them all up then put them away 1 by 1 from left to right. "

 

So as you see he can speak but it's almost as if he wont or he cant decide what he has to say!! But as fon singing he has the most beautiful voice... just like an angel :)

 

As I haven not got a diagnosis could anyone tell me what they think this might be? Do you need me to tell you more about him? Thanks :) Jan xxx

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