Working as a manager with AS

[Zakkala]

Hi folks

 

I'm new to the boards, so 'hi'! Myself, my doctor and my husband suspect I have AS and I'm organising a diagnosis with a certain well known fella in Sheffield, which I'm hoping will happen in October some time. One of the things that's really causing me problems is my work.

 

I manage a small team of 5 analysts in my job and find it very difficult - have always found managing difficult and have managed a number of different sized teams in different functions. I've always said I'm not a 'people person' or a 'natural manager' and I find managing people very stressful. I struggle to remember my team memebers that aren't actually in my office (two are in the same office as me, the other 3 are dotted round the country) as I'm really not interested in other people, if I'm honest. With the two in my office, the fact that they're there reminds me to talk to them, ask the questions that would indicate I'm interested in them and try to do the social interaction bit (well, I am kind of interested in them - I'm married to one of them and consider the other to be almost a friend, so it's a bit different with them!) although I still find conversation very difficult with the 'friend' even though I've known her for years and myself and my husband sometimes socialise with her and her husband. I just feel such a pratt when I have to talk to people! But as for the three that are in other areas of the country - I really struggle to remember to do the fluffy stuff - I never know how often I should call them to see how they're doing and I struggle to pretend I'm interested in them (I know that sound really harsh, but I honestly don't care what goes on in other people's lives - it's not relevant to work) and when I do try to sound interested and empathise it sounds so fake to me that I'm sure it must sound insincere to them too. As far as I'm concerned, they know where I am if they need me. I know this isn't really working as I'm not supporting them adequately although I think they're all okay as they're quite self-managed due to their roles. I'm increasingly feeling that the only way forward for me is to try and find a non managerial role - something where I can just play with my spreadsheets and code to my heart's content without having to worry about other people! I do have other difficulties at work, but I feel I'd be able to manage these better and minimise the meltdowns if I didn't have to worry about my short-comings as a manager all the time - the anxiety of under performing and knowing that however hard I try I can't seem to get it right is really getting to me. Fortunately, my manager is very understanding and tolerant - he knows I'm going for an assessment and I've promised not to make any rash decisions, but I just can't see that I'll ever be comfortable in this sort of role.

 

So I guess my question is this - does anyone have any experience of a similar situation that could offer any advice? I guess I'm also wondering - if I carry on in my role and do have a diagnosis of AS, should I tell my team? I'd obviously tell my boss but not sure how far the knowledge needs to go - I would have no problem with people knowing, but it's hard to know how many people need to know as I work with so many people (huge company).

 

Thanks folks.

 

PS - this forum has been really helpful; educational, supportive and the source of great solace and relief to find others that see the world as I do, so thank you.

[KezT]

As I think was said somewhere else, the easiest thing to do in this situation is to make something part of your routine. Ie: call them every Monday at 2pm. In your case, it is probably also worth getting a notebook to jot down stuff they say to you, so you can bring it up again next week. So if you call person A one week & they tell you they are decorating their front room, when you call them the following week, you can start the conversation with, "how's the front room looking now?". makes you appear intereswted and caring.

 

 

[cmuir]

Hi

 

I think it's incredible the number of adults that get diagnosed with and ASD - particularly because they must have overcome some huge difficulties and developed ways of coping.

 

I think it's a very personal decision as to whether to tell your colleagues. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it perhaps you should tell your immediate colleagues (the ones which you manage). I think it would offer them an explanation in the sense that they'd hopefully understand that your lack of interest in them when it comes to social discussion is not personal, but rather part of the disorder. Also, the fact that you're not 'a people person' isn't something that's simply your choice, it's actually (or can be) part and parcel of having AS. 'News' like that within organisations have a habit of spreading be it inadvertently (well meaning) or through gossip, so it's likely that it would become common knowledge. It would also be worth sharing with your Personnel department. Some people may see sharing that type of news as a big 'no no' for fear of affecting promotional/career prospects. However, the other way to look at it that you've actually done very well indeed, given your disorder, to manage people, hold down a job with responsibility, etc. Some employers can see it as a plus as well eg less likely to to take long chatty teabreaks (!), focussed, highly intelligent, attention to detail, etc - there are some traits of AS that are actually positive ones.

 

Best of luck with things.

 

Caroline.

[pearl]

Aspergermanagement might be worth having a look at - did a quick Google so can't recommend it or anything.

 

One thing I would say is - don't write yourself off as a manager because of your suspected AS. One of the best managers I ever had kept to "work" stuff - she wasn't AS as far as I know, but just very professional, absolutely fair in her dealings with people & you knew exactly where you stood with her.

 

My present manager does the "fluffy stuff" - and is a complete waste of space, as she is also very unprofessional & hopeless at communicating about work related stuff.

 

The ideal manager would combine the two - but given a choice, I'd go for courteous & professional rather than empathetic & useless anytime.

 

And now I really must pack for my holiday!

[bid]

Hi Kakkala!

 

I am another woman, diagnosed with AS in 2007. I'm married with 4 kids.

 

I too am the line manager for 4 other people, although only 3 at any one time. I lead a night team at a residential special school for children and young people with a range of severe learning and medical difficulties. I had worked there as day staff for a couple of years before transfering to nights, which coincided with my referral for an assessment for AS. I told my line manager about this straightaway, so when she suggested I go for the team leader post she already 'knew' about me.

 

Although I loved the place and the children I struggled hugely when I was day staff because of the noise, and the lack of routine and structure. I would never have been able to be a line manager on days!

 

I've been so lucky because once I changed to nights I just found my perfect niche. The night shift revolves around hourly checks, which gives me the structure and routine I need to feel 'safe', which in turn gives me the confidence to deal well with the behavioural or medical emergencies that often occur.

 

My team all know that I have AS. It helps that as we work with many children on the spectrum, ranging from severely autistic to AS, they have a good working understanding of autism. I also think that working in a special school means they are all people who are more accepting of difference, and TBH are all what I would call 'non-mainstream' themselves (in the best possible way! ).

 

As we work very long hours, I see more of my colleagues than my husband during term time. They really have become more like a family to me, and for the first time in my life I am accepted unconditionally and feel genuinely liked for who I am.

 

However, I still have to make a hugely conscious effort to remember to ask them about themselves and their families when they ask me about myself, etc. I have just about got over the shock of people asking about my children or myself...for a long time I couldn't understand why they did so! I have also learnt a lot from them about how to interact socially (even if I don't always understand completely why it's good to say or do something ), and especially one has been very patient and endlessly explained things for me (Kellyanne ).

 

I am able to discuss any problems amongst the team with the other team leader, which is a huge help. She is a pretty straightforward person, so we tend to deal with things in an uncomplicated way as opposed to things I've seen happen in other teams. I also know I can always ask my line manager for advice over management problems...she is absolutely brilliant and I can't rate her highly enough.

 

We also have an in-house training department, and I've been on various courses on management related things. Again, I tell the trainer I have AS, and sometimes I've needed to go out of the room to do a particlular exercise as I can't manage with the noise or to have someting explained slightly differently.

 

Blimey, don't know if there's anything helpful there or not!

 

Hope you stick around here, we're a good bunch I think

 

Bid

Edited August 8, 2009 by bid

[Guest featherways]

I have a full dx of Asperger syndrome (not the mild sort) and run a company. How? By working with people who complement the things I can't do, and who respect the things I can. I need others to help with staff management, so ask for that. I need others to help organise me a bit, so have a PA. Easier when you're the boss, not as easy if you're just expected to have all the answers yourself.

 

I'd say people should know, and should work with you to bring out the best in you, so that you can encourage the best in them too. But it's a very individual decision.

[bid]

Two other things I thought of after I posted...

 

Firstly, one major benefit of the management training courses I have done at work has actually been the realisation that a lot of presumably NT people find the same things tricky!

 

One problem I do have is that sometimes things can go right over my head. Recently both teams (the other line manager and myself sort of share them over a rolling rota) were almost in open revolt about something one member was doing. This had completely passed me by, as they had only been 'alluding' to the problem, which wasn't something that bothered me anyway. It was only when one of my colleagues sat me down and spelt things out that I realised what was going on!

 

Bid

[Zakkala]

Thank you all so much for your replies - you're a very handy lot to know! I can't tell you how great it is to be able to ask advice from folk that really understand.

 

KezT - I think you might be right; putting something regular in my calendar might help and make me feel more in control. Also, keeping notes about stuff as you suggest - good idea, thank you.

 

I have just about got over the shock of people asking about my children or myself...for a long time I couldn't understand why they did so!

 

Bid - That's something I still can't get used to I must admit - can never understand why anyone is interested in me outside of work!

 

Again, I tell the trainer I have AS, and sometimes I've needed to go out of the room to do a particlular exercise as I can't manage with the noise or to have someting explained slightly differently.

 

Actually, I was in a training course just this week and had to tell the trainer about things as he hit on a rather sore point when discussing 'effectiveness' in our roles and I kind of went on a bit of a rant. He was very understanding and nice and I ended up in tears and it was all a bit of a mess. I really wish I could stop wigging out at work when things get on top of me. It's getting very repetative!

 

I have a full dx of Asperger syndrome (not the mild sort)

 

Featherways - I've done a bit of reading, but haven't come across a 'mild sort'; could you give me a bit more info please on what the difference between AS and the 'mild' verson would be? I'm really interested to learn as much as I can about it all.

 

less likely to to take long chatty teabreaks (!)

 

cmuir - too true; I don't actually take any breaks any more as I find they disrupt my routine too much; I just eat at my desk as I work and my lovely husband appears with cups of tea now and again! I'm very lucky to have him on my team from that point of view!

 

Pearl - thanks for the link, I'll go have a read.

Edited August 8, 2009 by Zakkala

[bid]

Featherways - I've done a bit of reading, but haven't come across a 'mild sort'; could you give me a bit more info please on what the difference between AS and the 'mild' verson would be? I'm really interested to learn as much as I can about it all.

 

There's no such thing as 'mild' AS, so I'm not sure what Featherways means by this

 

The clinical diagnoses would be AS (no significant language delay in childhood) or High Functioning Autism (significant language delay in childhood).

 

Hope that helps.

 

Bid

 

[Mumble]

Featherways - I've done a bit of reading, but haven't come across a 'mild sort'; could you give me a bit more info please on what the difference between AS and the 'mild' verson would be? I'm really interested to learn as much as I can about it all.

There isn't a mild sort, nor is there such a thing as a 'full dx' of AS. Quite simply, based on the judgement of a qualified diagnostician, you either have AS or you do not. In fact suggesting that some people are only 'mild' can be quite derogatory and upsetting as it suggests that others perceive you to not really have AS or not to be struggling (and potentially to be 'putting on' your difficulties). We are all individuals (hmm, seem to be saying that a lot recently) and no one can know how AS impacts on us individually partciualarly because AS doesn't act alone but is part of our wider identities. Suggesting mild effects negates the enourmous effort that many of us have to put in to appear normal day to day and the strain this can have on us (which is often 'behind closed doors').

 

Sorry to have gone a bit Zakkala, I found your OP interesting but some of it was a bit close to home. I may come back and answer it later. One key issue that often comes up in studies of employment amongst individuals with AS (aside from the low numbers in employment) is that of those who are employed, a vast majority are employed at a level well below what they are qualified for often as a result of social issues and understanding the non-written side of getting in a job - essentially the 'fluffy' side and the networking that isn't directly part of the job. I'm currently in the final year of my PhD having worked in a professional capacity previously; but I reached a stage where a management post was what would be expected/give access to higher pay scales and having had some experience in covering a colleague's maternity leave I just couldn't see it working. I'm now very concerned about what happens when I finish studying because I don't fit anywhere being over-qualified for what I am comfortable with and not comfortable with nor understanding what I am qualified for.

 

[Mumble]

There's no such thing as 'mild' AS, so I'm not sure what Featherways means by this

 

The clinical diagnoses would be AS (no significant language delay in childhood) or High Functioning Autism (significant language delay in childhood).

Bid beat me too it and was far more succinct!

 

[Guest featherways]

Well, there is such a thing as mild ASC, or so I am told by a heck of a lot of people who claim to have it. If they don't, then someone needs to tell them they don't. Any disability or condition has a range from mild, moderate to severe, whether it is visual loss, hearing loss, cerebral palsy, depression, arthritis, dyslexia or otherwise. In order for a full dx to be made, there has to be a definite effect on everyday living, but there are many whose ASC scores and experiences are on the borderline with 'normal' and who can lead pretty independent lives. The point I was making is that I am managing a company with a fairly severe form of ASC. I am sorry that people got offended by that. I was trying to offer some clues about how I manage despite it.

[Guest featherways]

Here's the National Autistic Society talking about this mild form, for example:

 

"It is likely that in the past those with relatively mild Asperger syndrome have been educated in mainstream schools and the condition has not been recognised. Essentially they would have been loners, easily bullied because they would have been perceived as being 'odd' by their fellows. They may have taken refuge in their particular interest or obsession and built up an expertise which, eventually, would have been acknowledged by their peers, perhaps gaining them the nickname of 'professor'. Indeed it is postulated that some single-minded academics may have a mild degree of the condition. Today those with a mild form of the condition in mainstream schools are being identified and given appropriate support and increasingly they are being entered for external examinations. "

 

http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=364&a=2191

 

I mention a full DX because I've had endless problems on message boards with people saying "well if you are running a company, I bet you're not really ASC", not because I'm saying there's a half-diagnosis of some kind or any other fraction of a diagnosis. Some people with an ASC do 'self-diagnose', as we know. I don't have any problem with people self-identifying if that works better for their own journey in life, but for me, I went for a diagnosis and I told people and it worked out ok.

 

I'm also a national and international adviser on autism and Asperger syndrome, but a bit tired at the moment.

 

Looking at, for example, the Cambridge AAA testing, which is the new Gold Standard for ASC testing, the scores are given in four key areas - general questions and life history, AQ, SQ-R and EQ. Those are then plotted to give an overall picture of the exact strengths, weaknesses, challenges or otherwise that this person has.

 

http://www.gregcons.com/KateBlog/content/binary/eqsq.gif gives an example of one type of graph that shows the range of scores for those with and without a diagnosis of ASC. Green blobs are ASC people. EQ is how good people are at empathising. SQ is how good they are at systemising - looking for and enjoying/needing rules, structures, definite answers, patterns, routines etc. There are people scoring right up in the middle of the 'normal' range for these, and others scoring way, way in the extreme range. The scientists find that their degrees of difficulty vary accordingly, hence mild, moderate, severe. Yes, in many cases people can overcome moderate or severe scores through massive effort and often exhaustion and maybe with a good bit of help. But I don't see that as an insult to them or to the people who are at the milder end. It's just different.

Edited August 8, 2009 by featherways

[baddad]

I think one of the major problems with terminology like 'mild' is that it leaves the door wide open on what (i.e.) autism and what 'significant disability' means.

To my mind, the boundaries on what constitutes diagnosis these days has got so blurred that pretty much anyone who can identify some area of their everyday lives with which they feel less able to cope than 'most' people can find some sort of label to pin that on. Sadly, I believe that in tandem with that it has become increasingly easy to find professionals (either because they have embraced the widening boundaries as a 'good thing' or because they are simply unscrupulous enough to put money before professionalism) who will endorse those perceptions.

It doesn't only apply to autism - increasingly things like ADHD, OCD, Bi-Polarism, Depression, SADS, Dyspraxia, Dyslexia, Discalcula etc etc etc (the list goes on and on and on and on...) are being used casually to describe everyday difficulties that huge numbers of the general population also encounter on a regular basis... Someone with a twisted ankle is not described as 'mildly paraplegic'. Someone with a mole on their cheek is not described as 'mildly cancerous'. Someone who is short-sighted is not described as 'mildly blind'. Someone who likes bands like coldplay is not described as 'mildy insane' (heehee)...

Thing is, I would describe my own son as 'mildly' autistic. Academically he's about average, he can manage most small group social situations with support and is getting better at doing so without support etc etc etc. BUT: If you met him for more than a few minutes you would know something about him was 'different' - and I'm not talking about the kinds of behaviours that are often ascribed to autistic kids of his age like aggression or selfishness or rudeness or stuff like that (he's none of those things deliberately but like all 11 yr olds can be all of them, and can - on genuine autistic grounds - unwittingly be 'more' of those things without realising). The difference between my son and someone at the severe end of the spectrum (please excuse the clumsy shorthand) is absolutely huge and visible - and I wouldn't dream of suggesting that my son's difficulties are the same theirs. But my son's difficulties are huge in different ways. Looking at the spectrum from the other end, and the kind of casual 'mild' diagnosis that is becoming increasingly commonplace (including 'Aspie-rational' adults who think the whole idea of being viewed as geek chic/'highly intelligent but a bit quirky' is pretty attractive), it's very scary to think that his huge disabilities are being capitalised on by people who really do not have anything like his problems with day to day living, by people who don't even feel the need to seek professional diagnosis because they just 'know they are but it's really no biggy' for them. Perhaps we need to rewrite Descartes for the new millenium: 'I think (I'm autistic/ADHD/Bi-Polar/OCD...) therefore I am (autistic/ADHD/Bi-Polar/OCD)'.

Now none of that would matter if it wasn't for the fact that the general perception of any disability is based on stereotypes - which is why we still hear 'Rainman' or 'Forrest Gump' references left right and centre. So, the more general the 'mild' perception of autism as 'geek chic' becomes the more it undermines the needs of children like my son. Frighteningly, profound autism ( clumsy shorthand again)is even further removed from that general perception, to the point that even on forums like this one it can seem to be completely overlooked at times.

Please understand I'm not having a 'pop' at anyone who has posted in this thread (or any other thread) or making any kind of judgement/comment about the OP's condition or concerns. I am just explaining why I find terminology like 'mild' disturbing and describing my own concerns over what I consider to be an era/culture of increasingly casual diagnosis.

Hope some of that makes sense and that no one's taken it personally...

 

L&P

 

BD

[bid]

Well, there is such a thing as mild ASC, or so I am told by a heck of a lot of people who claim to have it. If they don't, then someone needs to tell them they don't.

 

Sorry, not quite clear...do you mean those people who have decided they have 'mild' AS, or people who have a clinical diagnosis?

 

Because I don't think home diagnosis is a diagnosis at all, and I agree with everything Mumble and BD have said in response to this idea of 'mild'. And it's pertinent to note that within any clinical or SS situation, the first question asked is who made the dx, and any home dx is disregarded. In fact, a few months ago in A&E I was even asked if my dx was an NHS one (it is).

 

Bid

Edited August 8, 2009 by bid

[bid]

I think it's incredible the number of adults that get diagnosed with and ASD - particularly because they must have overcome some huge difficulties and developed ways of coping.

 

Hi Caroline

 

I think one thing that happens fairly often (as in my case) is that jobs don't necessarily reflect academic qualifications...Mumble has posted about this above. It also took me nearly 20 years to get any sort of decent career.

 

On paper I am massively over-qualified to do my job, and if I was doing a job commensurate with my qualifications I would be earning in excess of certainly twice as much as I do now. But there is no way I would have ever been able to cope in any of those careers.

 

One of the huge positives from my dx has been that I have finally been able to stop feeling a failure who has never lived up to her 'potential'. Instead, now I feel really proud of myself for working full-time as a team leader and NVQ assessor.

 

Bid

Edited August 8, 2009 by bid

[NobbyNobbs]

i think theres a confusion of terms. Aspergers Syndrome may be on the mild end of the spectrum relative to Kanner type autism, but as far as i know from a diagnostic point of view you either have AS or you don't. you dont get a piece of paper that says 'Congratulations X you have mild AS' you get a piece of paper that says 'you have AS'.

 

AS also affects everyone differently. i'm extremely well spoken (ive won awards for public speaking), but that doesn't make me have less AS than someone who can't do that, any more than someone who has learnt to make eye contact has mildler AS than someone who looks at the floor all the time. by the time we reach adulthood we all have learnt a large number of 'tricks' to help us get by and appear normal. i fear some of the younger generation with childhood dxs wont achieve this and so will appear more severely affected because they haven't had to fight and learn to behave normal the way the adult dx group has, but thats an entirelly different matter.

 

as for the OP - i agree with KezT, try to make a routine out of as much as possible, and if you find yourself in trouble for not being able to do something then lay it all on the line and suggest some ways that would help make your job easier for you, even if it means asking for help!

[baddad]

AS also affects everyone differently. i'm extremely well spoken (ive won awards for public speaking), but that doesn't make me have less AS than someone who can't do that, any more than someone who has learnt to make eye contact has mildler AS than someone who looks at the floor all the time. by the time we reach adulthood we all have learnt a large number of 'tricks' to help us get by and appear normal. i fear some of the younger generation with childhood dxs wont achieve this and so will appear more severely affected because they haven't had to fight and learn to behave normal the way the adult dx group has, but thats an entirelly different matter.

 

Hi nobbynobbs: i agree with you to some extent that 'less AS' is the wrong way of looking at things, and also share your concerns about the newer generation being doubly disabled by assumptions about their potential and lowered expectations; but...

There remains a huge difference between somebody who has AS and has the wherewithal/social understanding/ability to develop or learn coping skills and someone with AS who cannot master those skills or lacks even the social understanding to recognise - let alone emulate - them. Making no value judgements about the individuals whatsoever, I know autistic adults who fall into both categories and can state with absolute conviction that within my own sphere of experience the degree of marginalisation and 'disablement' between the two just doesn't bear comparison.

Coming back briefly to what you said about the younger generation: I believe that some children will not reach their full potential for the kinds of reasons you highlight, and that's incredibly sad. I'm quite vocal about that, as i'm sure you'll have noticed! There are, however, others who just won't have that potential however much they are encouraged or supported, and they shouldn't be negatively judged for that: it's just how it is. Saying 'oh I'm the same as them but have developed coping mechanisms' does them a huge injustice - because if you were the same you wouldn't have been able to develop those coping mechanisms.

Hope that makes sense, and that you'll appreciate that the 'I'm' and 'you' in the above paragraph isn't a direct refernce to you but shorthand for any autistic adult who does have the ability to develop or acquire social strategies and understanding.

 

L&P

 

BD

[NobbyNobbs]

There remains a huge difference between somebody who has AS and has the wherewithal/social understanding/ability to develop or learn coping skills and someone with AS who cannot master those skills or lacks even the social understanding to recognise - let alone emulate - them.

i agree with you there, but in my experience the people with AS who are unable to develop some level of coping skills after a period of time are generally those who have other things going on, such as learning difficulties/behavioural problems/MH difficulties which would still be there if you could somehow take the AS away. the combination is terrible and i am fully aware how lucky i am in my ability to learn to deal with the world and that this is not the case for everyone

 

BUT... i do still have to work incredibly hard to do so and being branded as 'mild' is somewhat insulting to the battles i've gone through. i still have vivid memories of being literally dragged screaming from the house when i couldn't cope with social situations at all and was completely consumed by fear, but my mother was determined i would learn to deal with it (no dx at the time). it was pure hell and took me well over 6 months to 'recover' enough to even be able to go into a classroom and stay for one lesson without having to run out and throw up, but i did it.

 

as for my comment about children being held back from what they could do i'm very greatful for your posts as i often find myself typing messages then having to abandon them as they would be largely unpopular and probably upsetting to the OP and am afraid of getting 'told off'. one of the best bits of working with foster children is you get to see the truly incredible things that children can do with the worst of situations, but i know not everyone has had that experience

[cmuir]

One of the huge positives from my dx has been that I have finally been able to stop feeling a failure who has never lived up to her 'potential'. Instead, now I feel really proud of myself for working full-time as a team leader and NVQ assessor.

 

Bid

 

 

 

Hi

 

And so you should! Must say that what you've said is precisely the main reason why I'm very much for seeking diagnoses irrespective of age. I have a son that was diagnosed at 4.5 with AS and a husband who is very likely on the spectrum too (two of my son's specialists actually asked me if hubby was, which got me thinking - turns out that they spotted traits in him which certainly make sense). I think it's a massive achievement to go through life being in turmoil thinking that you're a failure and then eventually discover why certain aspects of life had been so difficult.

 

Caroline.

[warrenpenalver]

I think the term "mild" is unhelpful. Everyone with AS is effected in different ways and social difficultys can be very "disabling" to someones life regardless of if they are classified as severe or mild. Social isolation is social isolation. In my experiece its peoples reaction to social difficulties that cause a lot of the problems and thier reaction is similar if the difficulties are "mild" or severe.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2009 by warrenpenalver

[warrenpenalver]

AS and management is perfectly possible as long as the team members understand and are willing to accept any limitations of the managers ability and some adaptions to the management style they may need to make.

 

In my experience of management, the team members often do not like a manager who will not get involved socially and who keeps everything professional only. This is especially true in close knit teams when i was in the Navy. I have noticed in the civilian world people tend to not trust you if you dont socialise with them, and it takes a long time for them to accept that you arent being rude by not wanting to socialise.

 

It seems in many bigger teams there is a lot of social pressure to fit in with the social circle outside of work and fit in with a pattern of what a manager should do. Small teams seem to accept you for the skills you have.

[baddad]

In my experiece its peoples reaction to social difficulties that cause a lot of the problems and thier reaction is similar if the difficulties are "mild" or severe.

 

That's true to a degree, warren, but overlooks many other aspects of the realities of a 'disabled' life. While the reactions might be similar, the circumstances are completely different: someone with 'mild' social difficulties has much more choice and control over their circumstances than someone who doesn't. You cannot, for example, compare the life of someone living independently or in partially supported accommodation with that of someone who is living in residential care, who lives 24/7 to the rules and limitations of that care environment and who can only access the outside world under the control and with the support of that care environment.You cannot compare the life of someone who can choose to go to the pub on a Friday night with someone who does so because it is part of their care plan. You cannot compare the life of someone who can successfully negotiate the tenancy of their own chosen home with the life of someone in a single room whose life can fit in a suitcase and who lives by 'house rules' dictated by a care plan and risk assessment evaluation. I'm really sorry, but you cannot compare the degree of autonomy and self-determination that 'mild' autistics can achieve with the realities of life for those who can't achieve it. The two realities are poles apart.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying it's 'easy' for anyone - I'm just saying it's so different that any attempt at comparison will be inherently flawed. Using 'medical' examples again, I'm not saying that a one legged man doesn't face a host of problems, I'm just saying that they are not the same problems as those faced by someone who is paralysed from the neck down.

 

L&P

 

BD

[KezT]

Getting back on topic, managing is a "soft" skill and everyone does it a bit differently. I am not sure that any number of courses can make much difference. As said above, it is much more important that you are professional, able to do your job, available and helpful at work than you remember the names of your colleagues cats and go to the pub every Friday night!

 

As an NT manager, and a very good one if I do say so myself, I had 70 staff to look after so I neither knew nor cared about most of their private lives! Nor do i belive a lot of out of work socialising wih your staff builds the best professional relationship - I made it a policy to never drink if there were work collegues there! Enthusiasm, interest in the job/company ect, willingness to help out ect are all more important and earn respect. Of course there are some things that you do need to remember to be a good manager - things that may have a direct relevance to the employee (ie, if employee X takes some time off to arrange her mother's funeral one week, it is something that needs to bourne in mind when she comes back to work....).

 

As to people asking about your family ect, in many cases they are probably not that interested Just give them a one or two sentance answer ("Oh everything is great, DD loves her new teacher and DS has made friends with the next door neighbour"), and then ask the same question back to them. That is usually what they are interested in - telling you about their kids/pets/health/holiday.....

 

It depends on your own circumstances as to whether you tell your collegues about any ASD dx. In my case, it would have both unecessary and pointless. In general, it is sensible to tell your manager tho.

 

As a side note, any spectrum has a sliding scale, but ASD is a bit different because whereas someone may have "mild" effect in one aspect (ie sensory difficulties) they may have very severe problems in another (ie: social interaction), making the ASD as a whole niether mild nor severe, but just ASD!. My mother likes to tell me that DS is "mild AS" - this is because a) she doesn't really approve that anyone in her family can have anything "wrong" with them LOL, she lives 200 miloes away and doesn't see the daily problems and c) we have generally made a good job of managing many of his behaviours. I think "mild" or "severe" is something that others like to label you with to make excuses for themselves

 

I also tell DS that his AS is the REASON he finds some things so challenging. It is not an EXCUSE not to do them/to do something else. That way, I hope he will still be able to access the support he needs as a child, while learning the coping mechanisms to give him access to the NT world when he grows up.

[Guest featherways]

KezT, I agree with you entirely about the challenges of which bit is "mild".

 

If people are, for example, blind, then they have one problem: They can't see. Ok, some can see some things, few can see absolutely nothing, but people know what it is, and they can experience it by closing their eyes.

 

With ASC, no-one who isn't us can experience what our world is like, and we have a whole range of different abilities and challenges. Someone might have much better ability to talk than someone else, or much better ability to cope with flickering lights or background noise. Another person might really struggle with eye contact or sudden change to the point where they are terrified of going out anywhere new or meeting anyone at all. Yet they might have fantastic skills in other areas that means they are able to earn a fortune from home working and enjoy a decent (if different) lifestyle. How can we possibly judge who is or isn't finding life most challenging?

 

Also, it varies hugely over time. I've had parts of my life where I have coped better, and parts where I can barely cope at all. But I think it helps employers hugely to know a lot of detail on what we can and cannot do, what we do or don't find easiest.

 

I have work colleagues with an ASC who would handbag me senseless (figuratively speaking) if I described their ASC as anything but 'mild', and they are very happy with that term. I respect their choice. I have never seen it as being disrespectful to those colleagues whose ASC isn't mild. Each has their own set of strengths and abilities. I have to know what I can safely ask them to do , and what they are going to find too stressful. Communication is essential. Goodness me they're fantastic people and I wouldn't be without them in the workplace, charities or other ventures.

[baddad]

As a side note, any spectrum has a sliding scale, but ASD is a bit different because whereas someone may have "mild" effect in one aspect (ie sensory difficulties) they may have very severe problems in another (ie: social interaction), making the ASD as a whole niether mild nor severe, but just ASD!. My mother likes to tell me that DS is "mild AS" - this is because a) she doesn't really approve that anyone in her family can have anything "wrong" with them LOL, she lives 200 miloes away and doesn't see the daily problems and c) we have generally made a good job of managing many of his behaviours. I think "mild" or "severe" is something that others like to label you with to make excuses for themselves

 

Yes, I'd agree that autism is a 'sliding scale', but disagree that 'mild' or 'severe' is something that other people like to label you with... The majority of people who self diagnose label themselves (or the partner/child/sibling/parent they have 'identified') as 'mild' and use that to explain/justify/excuse just about every negative trait of their personality. ( ). I don't know what daily problems you face, so couldn't possibly comment, but i do see many situations where daily problems arise more from ineffective problem management and the kind of explanations/justifications/excuses mentioned above than from AS or ASD. That's not, as nobbynobbs has already highlighted, a 'popular' perspective on the forum, but it is, IMO an incredibly important one.

Coming back to your 'sliding scale'... one of the most effective explanations I've heard of autism involved thinking about the triad of impairment as a graphic equalizer on a stereo. In the 'middle' each of the three sliders is set to 'normal' at a point marked 'zero' with a + as you go 'up' the scale and a - as you go down...

Imagine two people with different skill levels in each area:

person a 'scores' : -2/+1/+3 across the three 'sliders, while person b 'scores' : +6/-7/-9...

the effects of being 'mildy off centre' as in person a can in no way be compared to the extreme 'distortion' effect encountered by person b, and in no way is it fair for person a to use person b's difficulties as a justification for their own negative behaviours. Similarly, person b should not be 'judged' by the behaviours of person a...

 

L&P

 

BD

[cmuir]

As a side note, any spectrum has a sliding scale, but ASD is a bit different because whereas someone may have "mild" effect in one aspect (ie sensory difficulties) they may have very severe problems in another (ie: social interaction), making the ASD as a whole niether mild nor severe, but just ASD!. My mother likes to tell me that DS is "mild AS" - this is because a) she doesn't really approve that anyone in her family can have anything "wrong" with them LOL, she lives 200 miloes away and doesn't see the daily problems and c) we have generally made a good job of managing many of his behaviours. I think "mild" or "severe" is something that others like to label you with to make excuses for themselves

 

I also tell DS that his AS is the REASON he finds some things so challenging. It is not an EXCUSE not to do them/to do something else. That way, I hope he will still be able to access the support he needs as a child, while learning the coping mechanisms to give him access to the NT world when he grows up.

 

 

 

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Caroline.

[Guest featherways]

There's another aspect to the mild/severe debate, though.

 

Mark, the Chief Exec of the NAS, recently said that many people with a more obvious ASC get at least some basic help and services. Not enough, no, but some. Some recognition, some support, some adaptation. If someone is noticeably yelling, rocking, running, licking everyone they meet or whatever, then sooner or later someone will want them to stop and will find some money to provide services for them. They can see the problem, therefore it exists.

 

Those at the 'invisible' end (which is another way to describe a type of ASC) and who can be quiet and relatively well behaved, internalising all the fear and stims etc, so often get zero. Not a thing. Nothing whatsoever. Yet 'invisible' symptoms, as we know, do not mean that it's not there, or doesn't have a major effect on life. That's definitely not what I mean by 'mild'. By 'mild' I really do mean the sort where people's scores are all only just below normal and only just on the scale for ASC and who report that actually they cope pretty well. It's not a judgement by me of them.

 

With only 15% of people with an ASC in employment, us being between 40 and 75 times more likely to have no friends (depending on age), and with so many experiencing secondary mental health issues through the lack of support, (or berbal and physical bullying because of the lack of understanding), there is SUCH need for access to good services when needed. At home, in services, in employment, in education, in shops. We mostly get nothing at all. What other disability/condition in the world would get nothing? Thank goodness for the new autism bill and autism strategy - for us having a chance to say what we need, and express our needs openly and clearly for once. And have a chance of being listened to.

 

Most companies still have no clue that we even have sensory needs that must be met. So much more educating to do.

 

 

 

[baddad]

With only 15% of people with an ASC in employment, us being between 40 and 75 times more likely to have no friends (depending on age), and with so many experiencing secondary mental health issues through the lack of support, (or berbal and physical bullying because of the lack of understanding), there is SUCH need for access to good services when needed. At home, in services, in employment, in education, in shops. We mostly get nothing at all. What other disability/condition in the world would get nothing? Thank goodness for the new autism bill and autism strategy - for us having a chance to say what we need, and express our needs openly and clearly for once. And have a chance of being listened to.

 

Hold on - there are incredible holes in those statistics (as evidenced by a variable as huge as '40 to 75 times more likely!)... there's also a lot of assumptions, i.e. 'secondary mental health issue through lack of support' Firstly, how do you define/determine 'secondary'? I think the figures for depression/mental health at some stage in life are something like 1 in 3 and there are all sorts of factors that lead to those figures. Increasingly, though, 'autism' if it is a co-morbid is seen as the cause and the mental health issue as a 'symptom'. Secondly how do you define/identify 'lack of support' as the cause, and how does that differ from the lack of support experienced by non-autistic people who have mental health issues?

Additionally, statistics like this are inherently flawed because they arise only from evidence measured within specific subgroups - i.e. an autistic person is more likely to be seen by a psychiatrist and diagnosed with depression because their autism places them within a framework where they are more likely to be observed by a psychiatrist. Where those other issues don't exist the 'depression' would probably need to be far more severe before things reached a stage where clinical diagnosis (rather than local - ie the GP - interventions) was on the cards.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing the very real difficulties that HFA/AS people can and do face - I'm just not prepared to run with the delusion that everything negative that occurs in the life of a HFA/AS adult arises directly from their condition, and the secondary delusion that the hardships faced by them are no less disabling than those faced by autistic people at the 'severe' (excuse clumsy shorthand again) end of the spectrum.

Two examples i saw just this morning:

I saw a little girl run into the road because she was excited about getting to the supermarket for shopping. If that little girl was autistic then odds are that behaviour would have been seen as a 'symptom' of her autism. Within minutes i saw another little girl in the park with (I assume) her mother and slightly older brother. The mother was trying to encourage her to go somewhere and she wanted to go the other way, and in the end she just stopped walking and wouldn't move. The mother/brother eventually carried on walking, but she called their bluff and stood her ground. Again, if the child had a dx that would almost certainly be taken as the cause of her behaviour. Now the really scary thing is that the responses offered by parents in either of those scenarios would have been completely different based on the assumptions about why those behaviours took place, and the feedback the children got about the efficacy of those behaviours in controlling their environment would also have been completely different. Again, that's not to say that either behaviour couldn't arise and be connected to autism, but that's a completely different thing to an assumption that it is and that 'special strategies' need to be employed to overcome it.

Regarding your other post, featherways, I think your very clumsy analogy about blindness makes a very good point. Whatever you think there is absolutely no way on earth that 'closing your eyes' can come anywhere near to the reality of being blind, and I've always found idiotic 'role plays' that encourage that kind of thinking incredibly patronising... they make a point but that's all they do. You also make the point that 'no one else can know what it is like to be an HFA/AS adult', but you seem totally willing to assume that you can know what it is like to be at the other end of the spectrum and measure the effects of your own disability against it! I'm not making any claim to be able to do that, but what i can say purely on the basis of observation and logic is that someone who lives independently, manages a home and all of the responsibilities that go with that, cooks cleans and cares for themselves etc etc is accessing a completely different lifestyle to those who can do none of those things.

As I've said, please understand that i am not 'judging' or making assumptions about anyone posting in this thread or forum. These are general personal observations on the nature of autism, and more specifically on what IMO is a growth culture of casual diagnosis, projection and 'blame'.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Mumble]

Increasingly, though, 'autism' if it is a co-morbid is seen as the cause and the mental health issue as a 'symptom'.

No, social difficulties (etc.) that may arise from or be exacerbated by ASD which are unmet/unsupported and allowed to spiral the individual into a cycle they feel they cannot escape from themselves may cause symptoms diagnosable as a mental health condition.

 

My post was a response to the assumption of there being such a thing as mild Asperger's as a clinical diagnosis, not mild autism, mild effects, whatever. I think the two have become confused in subsequent postings. FWIW I don't think mild is helpful in discussing autism (although I understand why the NAS use it in a non-clinical sense as it is what makes most sense to the layperson) but that doesn't mean I don't think there is a huge difference between individuals: I am in as good a position as anyone to make this point with an autistic brother who requires 24 hour care. But I don't think saying my case is 'mild' compared to his is right because you are hardly comparing like for like for instance in terms of expectations. Equally, you wouldn't say that I in having to wear glasses for my dodgy eye-sight have a mild form of my mother's partial blindness: they are entirely different and non-comparable entities.

 

We need to look at individuals in themselves and what they can do or be supported to do rather than finding a way of setting up negative comparisons with others.

 

[bid]

Two examples i saw just this morning:

I saw a little girl run into the road because she was excited about getting to the supermarket for shopping. If that little girl was autistic then odds are that behaviour would have been seen as a 'symptom' of her autism. Within minutes i saw another little girl in the park with (I assume) her mother and slightly older brother. The mother was trying to encourage her to go somewhere and she wanted to go the other way, and in the end she just stopped walking and wouldn't move. The mother/brother eventually carried on walking, but she called their bluff and stood her ground. Again, if the child had a dx that would almost certainly be taken as the cause of her behaviour. Now the really scary thing is that the responses offered by parents in either of those scenarios would have been completely different based on the assumptions about why those behaviours took place, and the feedback the children got about the efficacy of those behaviours in controlling their environment would also have been completely different. Again, that's not to say that either behaviour couldn't arise and be connected to autism, but that's a completely different thing to an assumption that it is and that 'special strategies' need to be employed to overcome it.

 

But how can you know how these parents would have reacted had their children been autistic? (How do you know these kids weren't autistic, anyway?)

 

And how can you predict that these responses would somehow have been lacking as far as good parenting in your opinion??

 

Bid

Edited August 9, 2009 by bid

[Guest featherways]

baddad, I use the example of someone who is blind because it was taught to me by someone who is blind. He's the leading theologian on the subject of blindness in the world, and a good friend. And has been totally blind for a long time. It is not right to assume that I just make up this stuff - everything I write is direct from the top experts and top research, but if you want me to list out all the links, I've no time right now. Let me know, and I can get the relevant info for you later on.

 

Cheers

 

[KezT]

I would like to say, for the record, that in the vast majority of occasions, I treat my AS and NT kids exactly the same when they exhibit the same behaviours. good parenting is good parenting and what works for AS kids will usually work for NT kids - it's just that sometimes the AS kids make you think more about what they are doing & why they are doing it (usually becasue the results are so much more, um, explosive....). Running into the road and refusing to move are both fairly common in all kids - albeit my AS son still does so at 9 years old......

 

there are some things that my AS child can do which illicits a different response from the same behaviour in my NT kids, but if you think about it, the response is not really "different" just "more". there is more discussion, more information, more lead up etc. Although in many ways the AS child still needs the same parenting at 9 as he did at 5, and I strongly suspect he will need much the same at 15 too.

 

As I said, IMO "mild" is a label put on externally by people that see you as coping with life fairly well. DS is currently "mild" to my mother because she only sees him occasionally, and is really good at selective listening:) He is "fairly severe" to the school because they have to provide 1:1 support the whole time he is there, but believe he can remain in mainstream school with said support. He is "severe" to his gymnastic class, who have refused to have him back even with 1:1 as he is a danger to everyone else there. He varies from "very mild" to "seriously out there" to me depending on how sucessful our day has been LOL. On the whole I optimistically look at him as "mild" because he is in mainstream school, and I am still fully confident he will lead a mostly independant and constructive (working) life as an adult. Obviously, if he did not recieve any support at all, I expect he would rapidly slide into severe autism rather than AS, as he can happily lock himself away inside his head and ignore the rest of the world when he doesn't like it

 

Also, as I am sure many people have been told, most NT people have some ASD traits if you look at the spectrum as a whole. It is the combination of traits that leads to a dx. If you have "enough" traits to be dx'd, it is obviously enough to affect your daily life - rather tlike if your eyesight is bad enough to be officially "blind" it doesn't really matter whether you can see a little, or make out light/dark, or see nothing ata ll - you are blind and it is not the same as someone who is a bit short-sighted! If you have and ASD you have an ASD whether that more one way or another, it is not the same as someone who feels themselves a bit awkward in social situations. You may well be "mild" in some situations (ie: public speaking) and severe in others (ie: eye contact). So on the whole, such labels are just confusing in ASD.

[Guest featherways]

As it turns out, I've realised I really am too tired. I shouldn't have gotten involved in a debate or this board. I know people don't know me or my life, but it's been a hell of a year for me so far, with my husband nearly dying and more disasters than I care to recount here. Can't find the strength to keep justifying things when I need the support myself. For what it's worth, we really do work in a huge team with input from people at every end of the spectrum, and their permission to use their thoughts to help others. It's not me speaking as if I know all about classic Kanner autism, it's me reporting what people with that have said I can report, to help others. It's how advisory work works, otherwise logically no-one could ever say anything on the subject without going around in a pack of people.

 

Anyway, sorry for not having the strength to carry on with this. I've asked admin to remove my membership.

[bid]

Well, there is such a thing as mild ASC, or so I am told by a heck of a lot of people who claim to have it. If they don't, then someone needs to tell them they don't. Any disability or condition has a range from mild, moderate to severe, whether it is visual loss, hearing loss, cerebral palsy, depression, arthritis, dyslexia or otherwise. In order for a full dx to be made, there has to be a definite effect on everyday living, but there are many whose ASC scores and experiences are on the borderline with 'normal' and who can lead pretty independent lives. The point I was making is that I am managing a company with a fairly severe form of ASC. I am sorry that people got offended by that. I was trying to offer some clues about how I manage despite it.

 

Sorry, Featherways, but on the one hand you post the above.

 

But then you go on to say that only 15% of people with an ASC are in employment.

 

To me your two comments seem to contradict each other.

 

Bid

[baddad]

baddad, I use the example of someone who is blind because it was taught to me by someone who is blind. He's the leading theologian on the subject of blindness in the world, and a good friend. And has been totally blind for a long time. It is not right to assume that I just make up this stuff - everything I write is direct from the top experts and top research, but if you want me to list out all the links, I've no time right now. Let me know, and I can get the relevant info for you later on.

 

Cheers

 

Hi featherways - I didn't assume you made it up and i don't need to see the credentials of the person who offered this insight. Whatever his credentials, if he has told you that closing your eyes can give you an insight into the lifetime experiences and emotions of someone with a life-long disability he is - IMO - wrong. I, you, we, him can agree to differ on that and that's fine...

 

 

Kez T - If you choose to believe that a self diagnosed adult who works, drives, pays rent, has a relationship and negotiates most areas of their lives relatively successfully is experiencing the 'same' difficulties in life as someone living by necessity in residential care with round the clock support and very little real control over their own lives whatsoever, that's fine. We too can 'agree to differ'. The only thing I will add is that I totally agree with the idea that the way a disability is perceived can often have more to do with the perceptions/preconceptions of the viewer than it does the disability itself. I would go further, and add that the degree to which someone might consider themselves disabled is also subjective, so it is perfectly possible that someone with a minor condition may consider themselves profoundly affected while another person who has an extremely serious condition will not.

 

Again, for the record, Im not dismissing the very real difficulties/problems that HFA/AS adults can experience and I'm not 'judging' or making assumptions about anyone posting in this thread or forum. These are general personal observations on the nature of autism, and more specifically on what IMO is a growth culture of casual diagnosis, projection and 'blame'.

 

L&P

 

BD

[Guest featherways]

Actually you're right - I did make one error - 15% in full time employment.

 

Anyway, the stuff is easily findable online. Try the Hansard and House of Lords Autism Bill reports.

 

Bye

[bid]

As it turns out, I've realised I really am too tired. I shouldn't have gotten involved in a debate or this board. I know people don't know me or my life, but it's been a hell of a year for me so far, with my husband nearly dying and more disasters than I care to recount here. Can't find the strength to keep justifying things when I need the support myself. For what it's worth, we really do work in a huge team with input from people at every end of the spectrum, and their permission to use their thoughts to help others. It's not me speaking as if I know all about classic Kanner autism, it's me reporting what people with that have said I can report, to help others. It's how advisory work works, otherwise logically no-one could ever say anything on the subject without going around in a pack of people.

 

Anyway, sorry for not having the strength to carry on with this. I've asked admin to remove my membership.

 

I'm really sorry you feel that way, Featherways. I guess though that a forum is all about debate, with people disagreeing.

 

For what it's worth, I know certainly three other people in this debate have a dx of AS (Mumble, Nobby and myself)...and our opinions are just as valid as any other collection of people with ASC whether in a working party or in an advisory capacity or anything else.

 

I hope you decide to stay.

 

Bid

Edited August 9, 2009 by bid

[NobbyNobbs]

For what it's worth, I know certainly three other people in this debate have a dx of AS (Mumble, Nobby and myself)...and our opinions are just as valid as any other collection of people with ASC whether in a working party or in an advisory capacity or anything else.

Bid

i was just about to say and me, clicked quote and it popped up with your edit.

 

those of us with adult diagnosis have had to fight very hard to get by but that doesn't mean we have mild AS, in my case (and i can only speak for myself) it means that my parents did not know AS existed, i was given inappropriate medical care by doctors i can only assume also didn't know it existed and was dragged kicking and screaming through my childhood being thought of as an awkward, strange and antisocial person. and yes what i have experienced is not comparable to someone with severe developmentally delayed autism, but as Mumble said there is also a different level of expectation placed upon us making it like trying to compare eggs and bricks.

 

 

[Tally]

everything I write is direct from the top experts and top research

It would not be expected that most forum members are able to quote this level of research in all their posts. If you want people to know that all of your posts relate to this level of research, you are going to have to make that plain every time because it is not something people would naturally assume when they read a post on an internet forum.

 

I'm not sure that being this well-read means everything you say is correct and mustn't be challenged. It just means that you are going to ignore the challenges as irrelevant because they come from people who haven't read the top research like you have. That's more of a dictatorship than a debate.