Possible new school already has 2 ASD kids in class

[lucyemma]

Hi,

 

Went to look at a new school for my 6 year old son (currently being assessed for Aspergers and ADHD). He was previously in a small school before we moved house and he did really well there. This new school looks really nice only 98 pupils. The big problem is that we very much got the impression at our meeting with the headteacher that our son wouldn't be particularly welcome at the school. She explained that the intake for each year group is 14 and in yr2 they currently have 13 kids 2 of which are autistic. I really don't think they want another one....which I can kind of understand as it might put a strain on the teacher especially as at this school they only have teaching assistants helping out in the mornings. She said it was our choice but couldn't help but keep mentioning other schools that would probably be better.

 

I'm really at a loss as to what to do. There simply aren't any other schools for us to try, the ones she mentioned are miles away. If I keep my son at his current school I think he'll just get worse as they aren't interested in helping him. Does anyone else have experience of more than 1 autistic kid in a class? I don't know anyone other kids so all I can imagine is 3 lots of my son in one class (if I were the teacher I'd probably run a mile!!) I suppose with 2 other kids in the class then at least the teacher will be experienced and at least we'd get to know some other parents in the same boat. I think i'm just worried as the headteacher was so negative about taking him. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

[sonj186]

Hi, in cams class there is a child with ADHD and cam with ASD, i often get the feeling that they would rather not have either of them there! cam has some 1 to 1 support as he has a statement, are any of the other ASD kids statemented?

[Grace]

Hi Lucyemma,

 

I have been to a similar school where I was told that the other parents and governors thought there were already too many special needs children - luckily for me, I only went to see it, because I thought it might be suggested and didn't really want to go there! I half appreciated his honesty, but I was still a little offended on my DS's behalf - and he was to come with a full statement!

 

Have you spoken with the National Autistic Society/other help agencies or speech and language to gauge at all, how much additional help (if any) that your son will need? It might be worth speaking again to the Head if it is likey your son will get additional help, as that might make her feel more comfortable accepting him.

 

I think you have to go with your gut feel about the school and not worry about the Head too much. In an ideal world, you would want your son where he would be readily accepted by the Head, but there are plenty of children at schools, because their parents have had to go to tribunal to get them in and where the Head has not been supportive.

 

You could approach the Head and say that you are so impressed by her school that you really can't think of your DS being anywhere else and say that you would like to work together to make his placement there successful.

 

I know a school which was very motivated by SAT's results and was not at all good with SEN children. So many SEN children (and their siblings) left that they finally had to address the issue. Now they publicise how much help they offer SEN children! The point being that things change and you can tie yourself in knots trying to please other people.

 

It's a shame you can't get to talk to the other ASD parents now - is there not anyone you know (friend of a friend, neighbour etc) who might know someone who knows them and hence give them your contact details. They would be able to give you a really good idea of how good the school is with ASD children.

 

Good luck with it all - I think it is really demoralising trying to find the right school, especially when you come across one you like and there is some barrier to your child going there.

 

Best Wishes

 

Grace/x

[lucyemma]

hi sonj186,

 

I'm not sure what the situation is with the other 2 children. I didn't ask because I assumed that the headteacher wouldn't be able to give me that kind of info due to confidentiality. How well does your son interact with the child with ADHD? I'm worried that if my son isn't given enough challenging work and they don't help him socially then he could start teasing the other kids in the class to get attention cos thats what he does now. If he works out that there are 2 other children (with asd) who are particularly easy to upset then I'm sure he'll target them and it'll end in meltdowns all round!!

[JsMum]

is the school he is in now his second primary school? moving house and school is very difficult for a child who finds change difficult, I understand the frustration with a school that are not interested in supporting your son but you have picked up from the new HT she really isnt interested either, changing him again also may make it really hard to ensure more support is in placce as the LEA could say he needs time to settle to see where his true needs are.

 

Its hard to know what to do in the situation your in, but I think I would stick to the presant school and put in plans to ensure he has the support he needs, for example request an Assessment of his SENs, if after support is in place and he does get a statement you could change him then and it maybe the HT of the new school may be more supportive.

 

It sounds like the ASD pupils in the new school only have part time statements and maybe that they are battling the LEA for more funding, adding on another child with suspected ASD with no statement maybe making her feel very daughtful of a successful placement if your son was to attend her new school.

 

At the end of the day though she has a vacancy of the year your wanting and she shouldnt be picking and choosing what child she has, she should be welcoming both NT and SEN child the same if she feels that her school can meet the child's needs, if she is making it clear that the school would not cope and can not meet his needs then she needs to make that clear to the LEA and have it in writing.

 

I would look at the problems you have right now in the school he is in already and see if any thing can be resolved first.

 

JsMum

 

Edited October 4, 2009 by JsMum

[Tantaz]

Hi,

 

Went to look at a new school for my 6 year old son (currently being assessed for Aspergers and ADHD). He was previously in a small school before we moved house and he did really well there. This new school looks really nice only 98 pupils. The big problem is that we very much got the impression at our meeting with the headteacher that our son wouldn't be particularly welcome at the school. She explained that the intake for each year group is 14 and in yr2 they currently have 13 kids 2 of which are autistic. I really don't think they want another one....which I can kind of understand as it might put a strain on the teacher especially as at this school they only have teaching assistants helping out in the mornings. She said it was our choice but couldn't help but keep mentioning other schools that would probably be better.

 

I'm really at a loss as to what to do. There simply aren't any other schools for us to try, the ones she mentioned are miles away. If I keep my son at his current school I think he'll just get worse as they aren't interested in helping him. Does anyone else have experience of more than 1 autistic kid in a class? I don't know anyone other kids so all I can imagine is 3 lots of my son in one class (if I were the teacher I'd probably run a mile!!) I suppose with 2 other kids in the class then at least the teacher will be experienced and at least we'd get to know some other parents in the same boat. I think i'm just worried as the headteacher was so negative about taking him. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

My gut feelng is to advise you that sometimes I think the Heads of school make you feel like they don't want the trouble of 'another' autistic child being at their school. I also find that some village school are worse as they don't really have many children there with difficulties and therefore not the expertise. If you feel that this could be the right place for your son, follow your heart and let him go there, at the end of the day, it is totally your decision as a parent so don't let the head put you off. They will probably get extra funding anyhow to accomodate any special needs children. At the end of the day, the teacher is there to teach also not decide which children she wants. If the TA's are with the children only in mornings then it might be that the TA might have to work more closely with your son, but again if he needs extra support this should be the way it is. Good luck with your search

[sonj186]

hi sonj186,

 

I'm not sure what the situation is with the other 2 children. I didn't ask because I assumed that the headteacher wouldn't be able to give me that kind of info due to confidentiality. How well does your son interact with the child with ADHD? I'm worried that if my son isn't given enough challenging work and they don't help him socially then he could start teasing the other kids in the class to get attention cos thats what he does now. If he works out that there are 2 other children (with asd) who are particularly easy to upset then I'm sure he'll target them and it'll end in meltdowns all round!!

Hi Lucyema, they have to be kept apart at all times as they are like a whirlwind when they are together! they seem to get on really well but they are impossible when they are together! unfortunatly neither can be moved as it is a small school and year 1 and 2 are together (they are both year2) i do feel sorry for the teacher! some days the poor woman looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights!

[NobbyNobbs]

i would also consider the amount of time that the teacher would be able to spend adapting the curriculum for your child. if he/she already has at least 2 other children requiring adaptations and your son joins too it is fairly likely that at times noone will be getting what they need.

 

i think headteachers think its their job to try and manipulate their pupil intake. its amazing how busy and unavailiable most HTs are when you call saying that you have a foster child who needs to move schools and i would imagine its something similar with SEN children. we were actually told by one HT that while we had every right to apply for a place at his school for our two foster kids , and he did have places availiable under no circumstances would he accept the application because he had plenty of other people who wanted the place that would be better for the school! and this was with reference to two very bright, very well behaved children who just had the misfortune of being labelled by their home life.

 

in contrast, there are some fantastic schools out there. our local nursery have never had any foster kids before. this term they have gained two, one with extremely challenging behaviour and SEN. it must feel like the sky has fallen in on them. but they smile, and treat the kids wonderfully and do everything they can to help, adapting their rules to suit the kids needs etc.

 

interestingly there is actually a law that says that with the exception of reception class where there is a legal limit to class size if a certain school is the best option for a foster child the school have no choice but to take them, no matter whether they have a place or not. this is very rarely applied and usually takes a fight with the LEA before the school give in. i wonder if something similar will eventually be applied to SEN children outside of the statementing system.

Edited October 4, 2009 by NobbyNobbs

[Andy]

Something else suprised me when i was looking into primary placement;

 

The headteacher of one primary we viewed explained to us that even though our child had a statement, the primary school accepting our son would still have to pay a percentage of the costs of the support offered on his statement.

 

I am not sure whether this is true, or whether i have been incredibly niave, but surely making primary schools absorb some of the support costs of taking on ASD children, when their budgets are already ridiculously low, will only contribute futher negativity to any HT views on accepting ASD children.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Andy

[Kazzen161]

The headteacher of one primary we viewed explained to us that even though our child had a statement, the primary school accepting our son would still have to pay a percentage of the costs of the support offered on his statement.

 

Some counties do devolve the money for some SENs to their schools. Thus, technically, schools already have the money for these children/statements. However, the way the money is devolved usually depends on propensity for SEN (how many children with SEN the school is likely to have, based on things like free school meals, deprivation in the area, etc) not on the actual number of children with SEN that the school has. Hence schools in a relatively well-off area will get a smaller amount of the funding, even if they have a good reputation for SEN and have more than average.

 

Our County devolves the money for high incidence Statements (eg: ADHD, AS, behavioural issues - the most common SEN) to the schools, but gives extra money to the school for low incidence statements (eg: ASD/Autism, blindness, deafness).

 

Some counties devolve the money for the first X hours of support to the school. So the LA will only pay for the extra hours over that.

 

Whatever the case, Heads should not be discussing funding with parents and putting pressure on them/making them feel guilty. They should discuss any funding issues with the LA - it is not our problem.

[Karen A]

Hi.

When we were looking at secondary schools for Ben we did come across the issue of there being too many children with SEN per class for it to be practical.

The school concerned has very good provision for ASD and various other types of SEN.It is also one of the highest regarded schools in the borough and is over subscribed.Most of the pupils with SEN who have Statements have 1:1 TA.The school explained that with two pupils per class with TA support each class would then contain three adults.They felt that to have more than three adults at one time in class would upsett the dynamics of the class.

I think there is some limitation on the number of pupils with Statements to two per class per intake for this reason.Priority is given to cases where there is clear evidence that pupils need provision that can only be offered by that particular school.

 

[lucyemma]

Thank you all for your advice it's certainly made us think long and hard about what to do. Things are just getting worse at my sons current school, they really haven't got a clue. Because the other school is one of the best in the county and always difficult to get into we have decided to apply for the place. I would hate to leave it a few months and find out there is no place available for him. We've looked at other schools in the area and there aren't any others that would be suitable. It feels like a now or never situation. Will have one last chat to ht first though.....hopefully she'll be a bit more positive this time!!

[joybed]

Piers is currently repeating reception and in his class there is him with a diagnosis of aspergers and another child with ASD. Neither of them have a statement as yet. The teacher is in her 2nd year of teaching and is pretty good but as yet doesn,t have much of a clue and she told me the other day that the headteacher had commented to her not to even bother implementing any of the ASD teams recommendations as they don,t work in mainstream school. I told her I know they do as they worked very well with Marcus and am pretty cross by this negative attitude. In general though the school are pretty understanding having 12 children with a diagnosis of ASD in the whole school, 1 with an anxiety disorder, 2 with ADHD and 1 child with downs syndrome. The main problem we have is that Piers is a very boistrous child who is being assessed for ADHD as well and the other ASD child is very quiet and withdrawn who hates to be touched, not a good combination.

My oldest boy is in a class with someone with ADHD and they clash terrribly Marcus really cannot cope with his behaviour and the noise and chaos that comes when he is around. He is the same with Piers also and the 2 have to be kept seperated for everyones sanity not always easy but a neccesity.

Edited October 12, 2009 by joybed

[Sally44]

My son goes to a mixed mainstream/SEN school that specialises in ASDs. All the classes have around 5 children with an ASD. Then there is usually one or two classes per year that are mainly children with ASDs/SEN who are performing below expected levels for their age. The school also has an Autism Unit for more severely autistic children.

Does your child have a Statement? A statement is a way of legally securing the support in terms of hours, staffing provision and therapy input that your child needs. As already stated some LEAs have given the SEN budget to schools so that they do have to provide a certain amount of support. But anything over and above that HAS to be funded by the LEA. That is what the Code of Practice says. So, if the school has a termly Ed Psych budget of one visit to assess 2 children and your child's statement says that the Ep Psych (or SALT or OT) have to do termly reviews, or provide weekly therapy etc then that SHORTFALL has to be funded by the LEA.

In my son's class he is taught in small group work and tends not to be involved in whole class learning because he cannot access it. So he is taught in a small group with some other children. He is making alot of progress because this school does have the experience and expertise in ASDs and because my son does get alot of input as specified in his Statement.

 

I don't think that any school can 'refuse' a child. They might give the argument that including a child 'would be to the detriment of the other children'. But the best goal to aim for is a very specific and tight Statement that has to be adhered to regardless of the school placement. But from my own experience I would always seek a school that had experience of ASDs because it is such a 'learning curve' for a school that has no knowledge. It takes years for a good SEN school to train all its staff to a standard.

 

This isn't a very good comparison, but if I were ill I would want a qualified nurse/doctor to look after me and not a student who was prepared to learn on the job. It takes years to gain these skills. Autism affects each child differently and it does take expertise to identify each child's difficulties and know how to address them and teach them skills. My son's previous school learnt absolutely nothing in the 3 years he was with them. I found it very stressful and frustrating.

[Karen A]

This isn't a very good comparison, but if I were ill I would want a qualified nurse/doctor to look after me and not a student who was prepared to learn on the job. It takes years to gain these skills. Autism affects each child differently and it does take expertise to identify each child's difficulties and know how to address them and teach them skills. My son's previous school learnt absolutely nothing in the 3 years he was with them. I found it very stressful and frustrating.

 

Hi.I do not think that training is always the most important issue.We came across a leader on the high ropes course on holiday who admitted that he knew nothing about ASD at all.He was excellent with Ben because he had a positive attitude and listened.

I have also come across professionals who have years of experience and training in ASD and should be excellent.Unfortunately they have very fixed attitudes and expect Ben to fit in the compact ASD box in which they would like to place him.

By the way when I started nursing I was 18 and did learn on the job.In fact most of the staff on the ward were students.In my opinion it is not possible to learn the skills required to nurse people in a college without practical experience.

[Sally44]

I think it is a very difficult call. At his previous school they did appear willing. Yet the actions they took were incredulous from an ASD point of view. I had to intervene because a TA was 'forcing' my son to join in group play eventhough it was upsetting him. They gave him a workstation next to the sunny window regardless of the fact that three different professionals said he was sensitive to light due to sensory integration disorder. They also decorated it with pictures so that he fixated on it. They did not use visual timetables because in their opinion they didn't think he needed them. The list goes on and on. And every difficulty they encountered was beyond comprehension to them. When he was escaping from school they said he had been told not to do that. When he fixated on the toilets and pipes and blocked them they said he should know he should not do that. When he rocked and maked noises in assembly they punished him for misbehaving.

I think that when working with an ASD child you have to throw away all assumptions. Ie. just because a child can talk don't assume they understand. Just because they can demonstrate a certain skill don't assume they can apply that skill in different situations or environments.

And many autistic adults talk about well meaning adults trying to engage them with mirrors or sparkly/noisy toys etc when it was painful to them and they could not communicate that and had to endure this well meaning, yet painful interaction.