Cost of Mainstream with full time 1:1 compared with Specialist school?

[Athena]

We are committed to our daughter having an inclusive education, but the Independent Ed Psych's report states that she would need full time 1:1 support, plus specialist teaching advice, IF she stays in mainstream.

 

Which would be the more expensive option for the LEA to fund? Full-time one-to-one in mainstream, or a placement in a Specialist School?

 

Would the LEA ignore our wishes and name a Specialist school placement, on the basis that it would be cheaper than full-time one-to-one support in her mainstream school?

 

We are naming her present mainstream school in Part 4 of the proposed Statement.

 

Have a meeting to discuss proposed Statement next week and I am trying to get all my facts together!

[Sally44]

Cost will be a consideration as LEAs have to fund provision which is 'the best use of their resources'. Having said that support and input from professionals would have to be significant for it to become more expensive than a specialist school. Also transport has to be taken into consideration, as most specialist schools require the child to travel by taxi and some require an adult carer to travel with them.

Can I ask what your objection is to a specialist school? Have the LEA mentioned one that you believe is not suitable?

Is there nothing appropriate in your area, or nothing that is ASD specific?

[Karen A]

Hi.I think it is difficult to generalise.An awful lot depends on the specialist provision available within the LA and on how expensive alternatives would be.Also what speciaist staff the LA employs to work within mainstream schools.For example in my borough the LA has a specialist school for children with ASD.They also provide outreach ASD teachers and SALT.As a contrast some LAs have no specialist ASD provision.So all specialist provision either would need to be funded in another LA [expensive] or would need to be funded by a Statement for provision within the private specialist independent sector [extremely expensive].

As a rough guide Ben is funded for around 15 hours support per week plus delegated funding.He is in mainstream and the Statement includes ASD outreach teacher input,SALT and OT.The school recieves around £10 000 in funding for TA support.

I would be very surprised indeed if the LA were to go against your wishes for mainstream provision.

Despite my saying it is difficult to generalise it is very unlikely that Specialist Provision would be cheeper than mainstream.Also LAs are very much encouraged to promote inclusion.They tend to only consider Specialist provision where there is a very specific need and where a child's needs are unlikely to be met in mainstream.

Also a specific mainstream can only decline a parental request for a school to be named in the Statement in very limited circumstances which I will check.

 

If your daughter is happy in her current mainstream school,you are happy with the school and are confident that they can provide for your daughters needs with extra funding ,the school are happy to have your daughter included in school life and if they have an established good relationship with you I would think it very unlikely that they would not agree to a parental request that the school be named in the Statement.It amounts to a promise of extra money.

If some or all of the above do not apply in your situation it might be worth looking at other schools tooboth specialist and mainstream.

Edit to add.I attempted to access the COP to check

Also a specific mainstream can only decline a parental request for a school to be named in the Statement in very limited circumstances which I will check.

Unfortunately the teachernet document of the COP appears broken and I am competing for ICT access with two lads this afternoon.I will try again later.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Karen A

[JsMum]

You could request the costs inplications throw your council.

 

Js statement gave us a reciete of how much the TA costs were.

 

I would say it will cost considerbly less for mainstream school with full time statement than a special school.

 

Js is in a specialist school however he still requires a full time statement, I believe that statements are actually intended for parents in your situaton, the problem arises when the mainstream is no longer meeting the childs needs that it is impossible to get the LEA to budge to your request of a special school.

 

Special schools are more expensive, from anywhere from 25grand a year up to over 150grand depending on what the specialism is.

 

A full time statement in mainstream school is around 10grand upto 20grand a year.

 

For a NT child it costs around 2 and half grand a year to be educated in mainstream school.

 

So the differences are big.

 

If you read ofstead reports it sometimes evaluates a years placement so have a look at ofstead reports too.

 

JsMumxxxx

 

Edited October 29, 2009 by JsMum

[mossgrove]

Generally it is cheaper to fund a TA than it is to fund an independent Special School place. Many mainstream schools are happy with the arrangement as given half a chance they will treat the full time TA as an additional pair of hands to do all sorts of other duties.

 

Simon

[mossgrove]

Generally it is cheaper to fund a TA than it is to fund an independent Special School place. Many mainstream schools are happy with the arrangement as given half a chance they will treat the full time TA as an additional pair of hands to do all sorts of other duties.

 

Simon

 

I should have added that the ONLY thing that should matter is what your childs needs are. The LEA has a duty to meet them and are they not allowed to vary the provision purely on cost gorounds.

 

Simon

[JsMum]

I should have added that the ONLY thing that should matter is what your childs needs are. The LEA has a duty to meet them and are they not allowed to vary the provision purely on cost gorounds.

 

Simon

 

 

 

AAARRR BUt the LEA do bring cost into it, Especially when it comes to independant special schools, our LEA said no because it was an insufficent way of using local rescources, yet there was no local special school that met my sons needs, I understand the comment of an extra pair of hands to do other things when they are there to support your child, Luckly J had his own TA in mainstream, but in other schools I saw one TA been used for a statement child and three other children without statements but required one to one help too but it was too hard to obtain one, that is disgraceful, so make sure the statement is quantified and specified.

 

JsMumxxx

 

Edited October 30, 2009 by JsMum

[Grace]

Hi,

 

It is possible that mainstream with full support and specialist teaching could cost more, but it should not be significantly more - depending on how much specialist teaching is required; 2 hrs per week would not make a huge difference.

 

If you go on the IPSEA website and look up 'Four Historic Cases', you will come across 'R v Lancashire County Council ex parte Crane 1997'. This states that costs alone can not be the only consideration; they need to be weighed up against the parents' choice. You can quote this case to your LEA to demonstrate the point.

 

Many people on here have found great difficulty in getting a place at a special school, because of the shortage of places, so it's surprising that they are fighting you. Do you have the school's support? Are there other reasons why they might want to go for special school e.g. disruption in the classroom? Only ask, just in case that cost is not the genuine issue i.e. they are just using that as a reason.

 

But the very best of luck; whether you are fighting for special or mainstream, it is always stressful/x

 

 

[Athena]

Thanks for the replies. ASD provision is pretty scarce in my LEA, and there a lot of out of County placements as a result.

 

No local primary schools have ASD units attached, so it is an all or nothing choice.

 

DD is only young, so travelling long distances to specialist provision does not really appeal!

 

I am happy to give mainstream our best shot, with full time 1:1 support, if that doesn't work out, then specialist provision will be next on my list.

 

It is a difficult decision to make, either way.

 

The LEA haven't said NO to mainstream, but the proposed Statement offers NO 1:1 support at all, nothing quantified or specified properly, it has more holes in it than a sieve, very disappointing!

[Grace]

Hi,

 

IPSEA have just defended parents against an LA's non-specification of statements (I think it was Solihull, Birmingham). The LA have been told to check all their statements at the next annual review and amend if necessary - might be worth a quick look on their website - they should be specifying number of hours and again there is case law on the website stating that.

 

Is there any indication e.g. banding/level, on the statement to give an idea of how much money they are expecting to spend?

 

Have you been to look at any special schools? I went to look when I realised I kept saying I did not want my DS to go to a special school, but had not actually been to see what I was saying no to! Even if you don't choose it now, it can be good to know your options.

 

If you have an independent Ed Psych report, you are half way there - if you need to appeal, you already have sound evidence.

 

Good luck at your meeting!x

[mossgrove]

AAARRR BUt the LEA do bring cost into it, Especially when it comes to independant special schools, our LEA said no because it was an insufficent way of using local rescources, yet there was no local special school that met my sons needs, I understand the comment of an extra pair of hands to do other things when they are there to support your child, Luckly J had his own TA in mainstream, but in other schools I saw one TA been used for a statement child and three other children without statements but required one to one help too but it was too hard to obtain one, that is disgraceful, so make sure the statement is quantified and specified.

 

JsMumxxx

 

 

It would be interesting to see what IPSEA make of it. AFAIK an LEA cannot legally decline to meet a childs needs on 'efficiency' grounds.

 

Simon

[Kazzen161]

The LA have to go with a parents preference unless it is not an efficient use of resources - in practice this means that they have to go with the cheapest way of meeting the child's needs (so generally in mainstream). However, the child's needs do have to be met (as described in their Statement). The LA do not have to provide more than is specified in the Statement - so they do not have to offer the BEST school, just one that can meet their needs.

[Kathryn]

Would the LEA ignore our wishes and name a Specialist school placement, on the basis that it would be cheaper than full-time one-to-one support in her mainstream school?

 

It is very unlikely that they would name a special school against your wishes. The LEA have a legal duty to name a mainstream school if this is what you want, unless they can prove that mainstream is unsuitable for your child, or would disrupt the education of other pupils, and they would have to prove that there are no reasonable steps they could take to accommodate your child. They cannot argue against mainstream education on financial grounds alone, although they can still refuse a particular mainstream school using cost and /or unsuitability arguments.

 

The LEA haven't said NO to mainstream, but the proposed Statement offers NO 1:1 support at all, nothing quantified or specified properly, it has more holes in it than a sieve, very disappointing!

 

Then the first priority is to get the statement tightened up so that it properly describes the support your child needs, even if you have to appeal against it.

 

K x

 

 

[Athena]

Thanks Kathryn, I am gearing up for a fight!

 

Statement is hopeless, utterly and totally. Have obtained advice and it is potentially illegal, due to lack of detail.

 

Really nervous about having to go to Tribunal, but I will do whatever is necessary for DD.

 

Just want her to stay at her local school, with the support that she needs, for now anyway. It doesn't seem to much to ask from the LEA.

 

If it really isn't workable, then a specialist placement may be the answer, but the provision in my LEA for ASD is poor, to say the least. DD is only young, and I don't want her to be ferried half way across XXXXXshire, to school every day!

[lynne]

 

 

Hi Anthena,

 

Just to let you know my son was educated in mainstream school with a full time TA trained in ASD from the age of 7. He also had cover at play times and lunch times due to his sensory difficulties. Our LEA has a good ASD team who go in and train the teachers. The school also had fantastic views on inclusion and learning with the child.

 

 

Once my son needed to transfer to senior school we had very little choice. Our specialist ASD schools could not cope with his acedemic ability. The normal senior schools could not cope with his ASD and sensory problems.

 

So he has gone to a small private independent school with small class sizes. This is a very friendly school who look at what the child can achieve and will provide the right support or conditions for them to improve. He also still has a full time TA and also has transport to and from school. The LEA have funded this placement with out a problem.

 

12 months down the road and my son has still not fully intergrated but is surviving. Since September he appears more comfortable but is still struggling.

 

 

 

My friend's ASD son orginally went to a normal school where the school were not special needs friendly. At the age of 8 years my friends son refused to communicate due to all the difficulties at school. This boy did not have a statement even though he was ASD. By the time he was 9.5 years he had to be moved to a speech and language unit which had 6 children in the unit with 1 teacher and 2 TAs.

 

When it came to choosing a senior school his mother requested an ASD residential placement. The LEA communicated with his parents and requested he visits the school by son attends and goes for assessment. After several visits this private school did not know if it was the right place for my friends son but said they were willing to give it ago. So the LEA sent him to the same school with a full time TA, once a week speech therapist and transport costs.

 

Twelve months later and my friends son is fully intergrated into school life. He has made friends and even plays for the football time. He was having weekly 1 to 1 with a speech therapist but has progressed to a group class. His communicate has improved.

 

 

Hence, it can be difficult just to view a placement on costs as other considerations have to come into play.

 

 

A good statement is essential especially when your child moves school.

 

 

Good luck

 

 

 

[Karen A]

The LEA haven't said NO to mainstream, but the proposed Statement offers NO 1:1 support at all, nothing quantified or specified properly, it has more holes in it than a sieve, very disappointing!

 

I second Kathryn.

Please do get it tightened up as tight as you can.

I could write a book about the devious methods one HT used to make excellent use of TAs.If it is not documented absolutely clearly there is very little one can do if people are clever enough.

 

[Karen A]

Thanks Kathryn, I am gearing up for a fight!

 

Statement is hopeless, utterly and totally. Have obtained advice and it is potentially illegal, due to lack of detail.

 

Really nervous about having to go to Tribunal, but I will do whatever is necessary for DD.

 

Just want her to stay at her local school, with the support that she needs, for now anyway. It doesn't seem to much to ask from the LEA.

 

If it really isn't workable, then a specialist placement may be the answer, but the provision in my LEA for ASD is poor, to say the least. DD is only young, and I don't want her to be ferried half way across XXXXXshire, to school every day!

 

Hi.She is far more likely to be able to stay at the local school with the help she needs.

Even if the local school failed there would be a far stronger case for a move if the Statement is tight.

If the Statement is not tight I think it likely you would still have to fight once for a tighter statement and then again for a move.

If you are happy with the current school but want appropriate provision I think it is worth ensuring the Statement is as good as you can get it even if it takes an appeal.

It is not as though there is a risk of you missing out on a school place.You have the place already.School are unlikely to want your child to move if money is in the offering.

Oh dear I did not used to be this cynical three years ago.

 

[JsMum]

 

 

 

does the statement on part 4 say the mainstream school you want, if so then this is the school she has to attend, you need to concentrate on part 2 and 3 and get them changed, if they do not agree go to tribunal, they will tighten it up for sure, statements are intended for parents who want them in mainstream school!

 

It will be a good idea to get legal support for her statement and also NAS to help you further, these are the people I got help from

 

http://www.communitylegaladvice.org.uk/gat...on.jsp?rid=5471

 

Do not sign the dotted line until your happy, I made the mistake of recieving a statement in the beginning just because I was amazed we got J a statment, yet it didnt contain any speech and language, social and communication needs and support, hence we went to tribunal to change all of his statement as J needs required a special school yet they were forcing him into high school mainstream with a full time statement! what ever it is we want for our kids its usally a fight, but get your boxing gloves on, your going get throw this.

 

Good Luck.xxxx

JsMumxxx

 

[Karen A]

http://www.afasic.org.uk/pdf/ProposedStatement.pdf

Hi.Just thought I would post this link which might be useful if you wish to have a go at unpacking the draft statement yourself.

Karen.