Theory of Mind?

[Mumble]

I've been doing some thinking based on things I've read and thinking about how I think/feel. I'd be interested (purely out of interests sake) in others' opinions on this.

 

The theory of Theory of Mind (ToM) suggests that autistic individuals lack ToM and as a result don't appreciate that others have thoughts independent of their own. Further, many suggest that due to this, autistic individuals don't care what others think which underlies the ways they choose to act etc.

 

Now, I have a problem with this. I do understand the concept that individuals have thoughts, feelings and opinions that are different from my own. I do however struggle to work out what these might be or to come up with alternatives to my one interpretation of what I think they're thinking (which may be based on what I would think).

 

Most importantly, I care very deeply about what others think, particularly where I think they're thinking something about me. This is something that causes me great anxiety because I can't easily - or at all - work out what someone might be thinking but I care about what it is they are thinking.

 

Does anyone else experience this form of ToM and where does it sit within the theory (other than proving we're all individuals )?

Edited January 14, 2010 by Mumble

[julie1]

I do not have ASD but my son who is 14 does have. We talked about your post, his response was very much like yours. He finds it very hard to understand others feelings but he does care about other peoples feelings, and he still finds it hard to understand why they are different to his own feelings.

[Tally]

The theory of Theory of Mind (ToM) suggests that autistic individuals lack ToM and as a result don't appreciate that others have thoughts independent of their own.

This would be a complete absence of ToM. Not many autistic people (particularly at the Aspergery end of the spectrum) would have such a severe lack of ToM.

 

I do understand the concept that individuals have thoughts, feelings and opinions that are different from my own. I do however struggle to work out what these might be or to come up with alternatives to my one interpretation of what I think they're thinking (which may be based on what I would think).

This would be an impaired ToM.

 

I also care very much about what others think of me. It is the reason why I have gone so much into myself, because I know that if people notice me they may think bad things about me. Of course, they then judge me harshly for being so quiet, so it doesn't actually help give off a positive impression. Sometimes when I don't appear to care it is because I don't realise people might judge me for this. I am now very embarrassed about my teenage dress sense and realise that other children laughed at me over it, but at the time I had no clue. If I had realised at the time I am sure I would have dressed differently.

[bid]

Agree with both Mumble and Tally re. my experiences.

 

Bid

[baddad]

ToM is something that kids generally develop at around the 'terrible twos'... It's something that autistic children don't develop at the predicted milestone, but not something they won't/aren't capable of developing later on. Most HFA/AS children will have reached this milestone by about 6 or 8, I think (been a long time since I read any research!), and will have some degree of understanding. The 'Sally' test with a doll in a basket is a good flag on this. Very severely affected autistics (usually at the non-verbal, non-communicative end of the spectrum) may not ever develop it (or, at least, be able to demonstrate whether they have or they haven't, but given that responses to other peoples distress, for example, have lots of non-verbal indicators the former seems more likely). Compromised social communication will mean that most autistic/AS people will have some degree of trouble 'reading' the non-verbal cues that indicate other peoples emotional states etc, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it at all or that empathy/sympathy are beyond them - just that they sometimes need other cues before the message gets across.

Certainly with Ben he can be completely oblvious to other people's feelings at times, but when he is made aware, or when he does pick up the cues he is probably more compassionate, caring and genuinely thoughtful than just about any NT boy of his age I know.

The 'feels nothing' perception of autism, IMO, is a confusion arising from the lack of conceptual reasoning that severely autistic and very young autistic people can display (which isn't a 'lack of feeling' but a lack of understanding) and from similar confusion with medical conditions like sociopathy which do imply a genuine emotional 'disconnection'. The latter, I think, is a very common error, which is why so many women who have had relationships with abusive, aggressive, uncaring men cite 'possible autism' as a cause.

That said, there's nothing that says that an autistic person can't also be a sociopath, and sociopaths aren't necessarily abusive, aggressive or uncaring. In the latter case, it's not that they are demonstrating an 'intuitive' response - but sociopathy doesn't preclude the possibility of a learned response.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit text-booky, and It IS only my (semi-educated) opinion.

Funny thing is, the autistic tendency of looking at things in a very black and white fashion often seems to provide a much clearer 'moral compass'. Most 'deceptions' (including self-deception) fall into the grey areas of human behaviour, after all

 

L&P

 

BD

[Ric]

Hi, I can only aggree to the comments given above.

 

Ric

[Sally44]

I've been doing some thinking based on things I've read and thinking about how I think/feel. I'd be interested (purely out of interests sake) in others' opinions on this.

 

The theory of Theory of Mind (ToM) suggests that autistic individuals lack ToM and as a result don't appreciate that others have thoughts independent of their own. Further, many suggest that due to this, autistic individuals don't care what others think which underlies the ways they choose to act etc.

 

Now, I have a problem with this. I do understand the concept that individuals have thoughts, feelings and opinions that are different from my own. I do however struggle to work out what these might be or to come up with alternatives to my one interpretation of what I think they're thinking (which may be based on what I would think).

 

Most importantly, I care very deeply about what others think, particularly where I think they're thinking something about me. This is something that causes me great anxiety because I can't easily - or at all - work out what someone might be thinking but I care about what it is they are thinking.

 

Does anyone else experience this form of ToM and where does it sit within the theory (other than proving we're all individuals )?

 

 

I totally agree with what you have said, and which many other autistic adults have said themselves. It is not that they don't have empathy or theory of mind. It is that they cannot work it out themselves. Ie. they don't have the information or the ability to process it. That is why I believe many on the spectrum like TV, because on TV you get the visual and auditory information and you see everything. Real life is not like that. Things happen out of sight, and information or partial information is passed on, and those on the spectrum cannot process it, or make the connections as to what that means. That is totally different to not being able to have an understanding or have feelings for others.

 

My son is 8 and is diagnosed with autism and moderate to severe semantic pragmatic speech disorders.

My father was recently very ill, and died in hospital on 3rd January.

I took both my children to see him before he died, and I explained to both of them what was happening and that grandad was not coming out of hospital and that he was going to die.

When we got there my son went up to his grandad and took his hand and said to him "Grandad, don't forget your family. I hope you are very happy in the land of the dead people."

Then he went and sat on his nans knee and cuddled her.

So, when those on the spectrum have the information, and have the ability to process it, they can do it very well indeed.

 

I think of ToM as a kind of blindness. A blind person, can understand if something is explained to them eventhough they cannot see it. With ASD it is the same. The automatic gathering and processing of information or the relevence of information may not be there. But when the situation is explained to them they totally get it.

[Sally44]

Most people do consider what others think of them.

As you get older you sometimes feel more comfortable with yourself just as you are.

In some respects this is good because it causes us to restrain our behaviour.

So we don't want others to see us doing, or saying things that portray us in a bad light.

That is why criminals hide what they do. They don't want to be seen, not just because of the punishment, but because of what others will think of them because of what they do.

So this shows self awareness.

But, if you are not doing anything illegal, then this self consciousness can become negative, if we spend alot of our time and energy worrying about what others think of us.

Do you worry because you believe you are doing things wrong and are making social gaffs without your understanding it and you feel that others are noticing this?

[Sally44]

This is a huge generalisation for the whole female population.

But I can bet that most teenagers up to their mid 30's and probably so obsessed with how they look and worry about how fat they are, or how bad their shape is etc etc that they never actually get to enjoy those years when you actually look your best.

I am now in my late 40's and feel more comfortable about myself now, than I ever did when I was younger.

Yet when I look at photos I can now see that I was a real stunner. But back then I never thought that about myself. For some reason I always thought I was fat and ugly. When I wasn't at all.

Such a shame I didn't just enjoy the beauty of youth whilst I had it.

[Mumble]

This would be an impaired ToM.

That makes sense - I think I was thinking about it too much in a has or hasn't got it way... Hmm, what was that BD said about 'black 'n' white thinking'...

 

I also care very much about what others think of me. It is the reason why I have gone so much into myself, because I know that if people notice me they may think bad things about me. Of course, they then judge me harshly for being so quiet, so it doesn't actually help give off a positive impression.

Completely agree with this and this response and I think it's the same thing Sally's getting at here:

 

But, if you are not doing anything illegal, then this self consciousness can become negative, if we spend a lot of our time and energy worrying about what others think of us.

Because I'm aware that others are thinking things that are different to what I am thinking, but I find it really difficult, especially 'in the moment', to construct what these thoughts might be, or perhaps more accurately a likely thought (my mind goes into overtime with all sorts of irrational things they might be thinking and I can't tell between these which is the most likely), I expend a huge amount of energy into either trying to come up with their thought or cover up my lack of understanding or blend into the background and not be noticed, hence, yes, this definitely becomes a negative and can also stop me approaching people, even if I needed help for instance, because I'm worried about keeping up with their implied or 'obvious' (but not to me) thoughts.

 

Funny thing is, the autistic tendency of looking at things in a very black and white fashion often seems to provide a much clearer 'moral compass'. Most 'deceptions' (including self-deception) fall into the grey areas of human behaviour, after all

True ... but ... I'd be a little wary of this because it could easily lead to a 'therefore autistic individuals can't do wrong/commit crimes etc. etc.' stereotype which is just wrong, because we can (not saying I am BTW! )

 

That is why I believe many on the spectrum like TV, because on TV you get the visual and auditory information and you see everything. Real life is not like that.

That's interesting, I'd never thought of it like that. I don't actually watch a huge amount of telly, but yes, I do 'get' things more readily (although it's dependent on how they're presented) and I particularly like things that are repeated often, I guess because I can 'get' more of what's happening as I can understand things based on what I already know. Shame we can't get one of those 'pause and rewind' remote controls for human interaction!

 

[Meethoss]

I agree with a lot that has been said here, especially with what baddad has said. I can really, really struggle at times to pick up non-verbal cues and seem unsympathetic, a good example being that a few months back my receptionist said that her aunt had died and inside I literally thought "oh". Then a few seconds later it occurred to me that this was a bad thing and I kicked in to my "sympathy" mode. When she told me she didn't really seem to express any emotion over it so it took my memory of death to realise that this was a bad thing, rather than being able to pick up any emotion from her. I was actually genuinely sympathetic for her, but the process of coming to that was long winded because I was slow to pick it up.

 

I was diagnosed only a month ago and I still question whether or not it is correct (even though deep down I know it is) because what I (incorrectly) knew about Autism (and I know there's different opinions over AS and ASD) was that they don't have emotions. That makes me question it because I can actually be very emotional. Whilst I might not pick things up, as in my previous example, when I do it can have a very strong effect on me, much more so than my male friends. As Sally says, when I see somebody in obvious anguish on TV (where these things are exaggerated and verbalised) I can feel very strong emotions and kinda feel strange because it's extreme for me given that in every day life I won't feel like that (as I miss the cues).

 

As for the Theory of Mind, I also have trouble working out what people may be thinking so I usually end up asking lots of questions. I'm slowly learning what people may be thinking in different situations and I try to use my experiences to narrow that down, and if I add in the questions I ask then that narrows down much further and helps me for next time.

 

And as for what people think of me...I guess I've become a very talented actor. I am completely different to the way people perceive me. I'm often thought of as very outgoing, very confident, very strong, very intelligent, good looking, "good with the ladies", always knowing what to do, sometimes even arrogant. In actual fact this is the way I portray myself because it helps me to cope with how I feel. I draw attention to myself in certain situations so that I am in control and nobody else can draw attention to me unexpectedly where I am unable to cope with that attention.

 

I'm actually awful "with the ladies". I don't know what to say, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to feel. I often just stand there with my mouth gaping hoping that they will start or continue the conversation to give me something to talk about. Sometimes I will just talk about myself because that's what I know and then they think I am arrogant. This all makes me very nervous and I sweat a lot but you can't see this, and I sometimes get tunnel vision and dizziness but again I cover up extremely well and this can't be seen. And it goes on!

 

And I totally agree with the moral compass as well. I am more moral and caring of life than probably 99% of people that I know or have met. People come to me for advice because I genuinely care and I am awesome at looking at facts and producing options, and of weighing up those options. My stubbornness maintains my integrity and sometimes gets me in trouble but at the end of the day it's mostly appreciated. I sometimes think that if more people were like me then the world would be a much better place.

 

I've just been watching the Ross Kemp: Middle East documentaries (it's an important topic to me) and the whole situation there just really ###### me off. The solution is so simple to solve but it will never happen because of the idiots there who are just bent on destroying lives!! Very frustrating!

Edited January 16, 2010 by Meethoss

[baddad]

True ... but ... I'd be a little wary of this because it could easily lead to a 'therefore autistic individuals can't do wrong/commit crimes etc. etc.' stereotype which is just wrong, because we can (not saying I am BTW! )

 

Absolutely agree. The thing is that black and white thinking isn't always 'right' thinking and autistic people are just as capable of being very rigid about 'wrong' behaviours - which is why it is DOUBLY important to make sure that the right stuff gets reinforced and the wrong stuff gets discarded. Blimey, we're back to solid boundaries and expectations again!

 

[got the tshirt]

Is this a theory of mind difficulty ?

My Dd1 expects other to know what she is thinking, this causes her no end of problems now that she is not living at home for example, she moved her bank account because she kept getting charged for being overdrawn [ another long winded story]. Anyway after she moved the account her housing benefit was paid into the old account. She was upset about this and didn't seeem to understand why the housing benefit people didnt know she had moved accounts.

This kind of thing is happening alot at the moment and I am worried that it could lead to her having trouble with her bills etc. I do try to help but she gets angry with me for interfering.

As I have said before she was nearly dx with ADHD when she was younger and has recently begun to talk about getting some advice about the posibilty of having AS.

 

I hope someone might know if this is related to theory of mind and then I could note down some examples in case she does go for a dx.

[Tally]

Is this a theory of mind difficulty ?

My Dd1 expects other to know what she is thinking, this causes her no end of problems now that she is not living at home for example, she moved her bank account because she kept getting charged for being overdrawn [ another long winded story]. Anyway after she moved the account her housing benefit was paid into the old account. She was upset about this and didn't seeem to understand why the housing benefit people didnt know she had moved accounts.

This kind of thing is happening alot at the moment and I am worried that it could lead to her having trouble with her bills etc. I do try to help but she gets angry with me for interfering.

As I have said before she was nearly dx with ADHD when she was younger and has recently begun to talk about getting some advice about the posibilty of having AS.

 

I hope someone might know if this is related to theory of mind and then I could note down some examples in case she does go for a dx.

 

Sometimes when you set up a new bank account, the new bank offers to take over all your direct debits and standing orders. I wonder if your daughter misunderstood what the bank promised and thought her Housing Benefits would change automatically. But if that's not it, then it does sound like the kind of thing that may be related to theory of mind difficulty.

[got the tshirt]

Thanx Tally if this had been the only thing I would see that it could be a misunderstanding. But this kind of thing happens often, another situation was when she was furious about getting a parking ticket and said it was her nieghbours fault for parking out side her house and forcing her to park on double yellow lines. She was convinced that the traffic warden would be sympathetic if she rang them and explained. I tried to tell her that it was important for her to pay the fine or they might fine her more but I don't think I convinced her. She really seemed to believe that the traffic warden should have known why she was parked there.

This sounds as though I am making excuses for her but it has been a huge problem for us trying to get her to understand that she is responsible for her actions, no matter what her reasons are.

[Zen Dragon]

"I also care very much about what others think of me. It is the reason why I have gone so much into myself, because I know that if people notice me they may think bad things about me. Of course, they then judge me harshly for being so quiet, so it doesn't actually help give off a positive impression. Sometimes when I don't appear to care it is because I don't realise people might judge me for this."

 

Hi I've just read the discussion and I just wondered if what worries us is not that other people have their own thoughts, views and perceptions but that in having them this seems really threatening to us.

I myself am OKish at empathy because I had a very violent Dad who could erupt at any moment so I was forced to try and recognise the subplot of feelings from a very early age. I can still walk into a room and sense the overall feeling...is it safe,ok to be here.

i think I got theory of mind as a child but i still struggle with the problem that if someone thinks something different to me I can't really exist. And I'm now fifty!

Is this common for other people?

 

[av16]

I find ToM really interesting as it helped me to understand a bit more about my son (AS). He used to get really bad nightmares and then get really upset with me as I didn't know what he had dreamt about so his distress was quite extreme. I felt really bad that I couldn't comfort him. . Second order Theory of Mind also helps to explain how some people find irony, sarcasm & some jokes really difficult to get - the difference between explicit and intended meaning. I know this is an area my son still gets confused with. It also has been shown that the development of ToM helps improve social interaction and also social manipulation; so if you have impaired ToM you may have more difficulty making friends but you're far less likely to be a bully. I found out more about ToM and Executive Function (another area of impairment for people with ASD) from an OU Child Developmental Psychology course- I can recommend it; hard work but fascinating (not just to find out more about Autism).