Channel 4 tonight (Embarrassing Bodies)

[Sally44]

It's just a short piece showing how those on the spectrum tend to look at other things compared to NT people especially regarding people/faces and therefore they are not getting the information we do from gestures, facial expressions etc.

[bid]

Just watched this programme...

 

I thought it was very interesting when they plotted on a computer the eye movements of a man with AS and the NT doctor as they both watched a little dramatic scene.

 

Not sure about some of the other stuff that was said about autism, but I'd love to have a go on the eye-plotting-thingy!

 

Bid

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Very interesting about the eye movements being different. For anyone that didn't see it, basically, Dr Christian and a man with AS watched the same film clip which was basically about a man who was having an affair with his wife's best friend. Dr Christian's eye movements concentrated mainly on faces, whereas the man's eye movements were more restricted - not looking at the face at all.

 

I'm not convinced what was said about everyone being on the spectrum. Sure, we all have our 'funny little way's or idiosyncrasies, but there's a point when they add up to a much bigger picture. It's a neurological disorder.

 

Caroline.

[bid]

Absolutely agree, Caroline...it's one of my biggest gripes. I assume the idea is to make autism about 'us' as opposed to being about 'them', but I think it trivialises things.

 

I would love to see my eye tracking plotted, as I know I get side-tracked by patterns and textures, etc.

 

Bid

[Gordie]

Ah - this is familiar territory for me! I've been participating in Aspie-related research for years, most often for the Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience (ICN) at University College London (UCL), and also a few times for the Autism Research Centre (ARC) in Cambridge, some of which has involved the use of eye-tracking devices. The only mildly annoying thing is that you rarely get to find out the results of the tests you take part in, or the analysis that has taken place as a result of them. But then I suppose I could ask - I just ... don't.

 

Anyway, if you're interested, and live in or can get to London, contact either of these institutions - the ICN at UCL would probably be your best bet. State your diagnosis and say you'd be interested in participating in any future research projects. They'll probably e-mail you when something comes up. An appropriate e-mail address (seeing as they contacted me only a week or two ago, asking me to update my details and fill in a questionnaire) would be: ascdatabaseicn@googlemail.com ... and mention me if you like (full name: James Gordon), if they're wondering how you got hold of their e-mail address!

 

James

[Sally44]

From an NT perspective, this is part of being on the spectrum that fascinates me, because it is not that those with an ASD do not have the intelligence or skills to work stuff out. It is all about noticing and processing the right thing at the right time and making the right connections.

The man with AS seemed like an everyday type of guy, and yet he did not even look at the face of the people in the drama scene. I would have liked it to go further to find out why he did not do that.

My son's SALT said that my son probably did not understand voice tone at all because of how his own tone of voice is and because he has a learnt American accent. And there is so much information conveyed in 'how' something is said and in what 'tone' rather than just the words.

I've had it said to me by a couple of professionals that "we are all somewhere on the spectrum". And I don't know what the reason for saying that is. It makes me feel like they are trying to tone down any difficulties I mention about my son. And I think it makes them assume they 'understand' when in many cases they do not.

I have got a 'hidden' condition and also sensory issues. So I know only too well how people 'assume' you are capable or can do certain things when you can't. And time and time again I have had those involved with my son 'assume' he has certain skills, or even doesn't have certain skills without any evidence base for it. I try not to assume anything otherwise you can tend to pitch any intervention at an assumed level of skill, understanding or cognitive ability. Then when the intervention fails it has failed for the wrong reason. For example they taught my son how to use a 'Help' card - but found he did not use it so they thought he did not need it. When I asked them if they had taught him 'who' he should take it to they said they hadn't. Once he had been taught who to take the card to he did begin to use it and quickly gained that skill and moved onl

[Mumble]

I saw part of this last night and agree with what's been written here. The eye-tracking thing was fascinating and I've alway wondered if I'm looking at the right 'bits' of life because I seem to see things that others don't (I'm great at stuff like the observation round they used to do on the Krypton Factor!! ) but miss all the stuff that others take in, and importantly that they take in without appearing to make a conscious effort to take it in.

 

I did find the rest of the piece rather irksome though. Firstly, they talked about Autism as a mental health issue - erm, nope, try again. Then there was the 'everyone's on the spectrum' which to me diminishes the real difficulties those who need the dx have, and following this we had the docs assertion that he was 'mildly autistic' - well don't get me started on 'mild' and also that takes me back to my previous point, and then to finish they were almost encouraging home dx and 'find out how autistic you are' and have put instruments/tests to do this on their website. As far as I'm concerned, you either are or are not autistic based on the dx criteria particularly of pervasive effects on all areas of everyday functioning. I am worried that attitudes like those on this programme could potentially lead towards a position where people's real needs are not accounted for fully because, well 'everyone does that'. It was particularly worrying I think to me that these points were being presented by qualified doctors and may come across therefore as medical fact.

[pearl]

JP was watching this on his own TV upstairs last night (I refuse to watch this programme with him, all those dangly bits put me right off my jaffa cakes) & he came bouncing downstairs & told me that the doctor said 'everyone is on the spectrum'. Now, I'm in agreement with views here that to say that diminishes & trivialises AS - but JP loves the thought that everyone is on the spectrum, as it makes him feel more 'normal'. I told him what folk were saying here to give him something to think about. I think he's at the stage where he wants to 'fit in' rather than accept his 'difference', IYSWIM.

[Sally44]

I understand what you are saying Pearl. And I think my son would quite like that one too.

 

And I too would say 'I have some bits of the spectrum' in me. But it is very easy for those who have little or no experience of an ASD to then begin to wonder 'what the problem is' for those with an ASD when they also have 'some bits' but are doing fine.

 

For me, although I have some little bits that I feel in some small way helps me understand better, there is not enough of it in any of the areas in the criteria to even begin to consider that it has a profound affect on any aspect of my life. And even in the areas where I do have greater difficulties eg. sensory ones. I have all the speech and social communication skills in tact and am fully aware and able to support myself and understand what I can and cannot do and can equally put that across to anyone who wishes or needs to know.

 

It is the 'accumulation' of difficulties and how they often compound on eachother eg. speech, processing, social interaction, sensory, dyspraxia, dyslexia, etc etc that makes it very hard to some on the spectrum to express themselves verbally or academically, or to process and understand the key point of meaning in everyday life and in learning environments.

 

Self diagnosis is not a good idea - eventhough we all know how difficult it is to get a diagnosis. And many adults may find themselves self diagnosing because they can find no other way via the NHS; it maybe that it helps someone identify they do have issues that need investigating and maybe a huge relief for someone who has struggled all their life and never understood why. Again we all have examples of our own children and how they judge themselves as being stupid or rubbish because they don't have the same skill set as their peers.

 

I suppose it is all about balance. But if that statement were used as a way of fobbing off parents or adults then it needs to be challenged.

[pearl]

Yup, well said, Sally

[Mumble]

JP loves the thought that everyone is on the spectrum, as it makes him feel more 'normal'. I told him what folk were saying here to give him something to think about. I think he's at the stage where he wants to 'fit in' rather than accept his 'difference', IYSWIM.

I've been thinking about this more this morning (bloomin' signal failure gives you plenty of time to do thinking... ) and I can comprehend this alternative view and why it might be settling to some - and what you've said about fitting in makes sense. What I then tried to do was apply the same statement "everyone's on the ...." or "everyone has some form of ..." to something, anything else, another illness, disability, difference, etc. but it didn't work. I couldn't think of anything else where people do say this. Which left me thinking, well what's different about Autism? At which point my train started moving again and I gave up thinking because it was hurting my head...

 

all those dangly bits put me right off my jaffa cakes

The dangly bits weren't the main problem. It was when they ripped off the fungled nail without warning that I had to physically turn away - and I'm not normally squeamish.

[bid]

Hee hee, well I'm hoping the dangly bits will have put off eldest DD from having sex for a good few years yet!!

 

Bid

[pearl]

*nods* I positively encourage JP to watch this (on his own) as the bodies presented are almost universally off-putting

 

Mumble, I wonder if its because AS is a 'spectrum' condition whereas other disabilities are more 'clear cut'? It has been described (& I don't agree with the description) as an extreme form of the male brain, ergo we all know peeps who have (for want of a better word 'traits') - to some that is annoying as it trivialises, to others comforting as it makes them feel less 'different'. FWIW I think JP's view will change as he matures, but I've no real problem with it - just wish he'd stop dx'ing everyone he comes across!

[Meethoss]

Not watched this yet, will watch shortly as I've gotta cook dinner. Have had a quick read through and I've also heard people say "mild Asperger's" etc. I also agree that it removes from the difficulties that people with "mild Aspeger's" (or Autism) posses.

 

As for saying that everyone is on the spectrum I think this is sort of right, but overall wrong. It's sort of right because lots of people will posses some similar traits to varying degrees, whether they are "neurotypical" or whether they have some sort of condition. However, it's the severity and accumulation (that's not the word I want but I can't quite grasp it so that will do) of all of these traits that give the condition which is what ultimately make the statement incorrect. That said, these terms are only something that humans have come up with so that they can grasp the meaning behind something (e.g. time was invented by humans) and this also causes a problem as people then think x = y e.g. autism = no emotion (and there are too many examples there to list). So whilst I think it's helpful to know what you have (or someone else has) you shouldn't do everything by the book, you should deal with the individual issues that the person possesses.

 

Oh, and just in reference to Mumble's search for similarly confused conditions one very good example would be bi-polar disorder. Everyone has mood swings, but the mood swings of a bi-polar person are far more severe and not always linked to their current state in life. Oh and another example would be OCD - everyone can obsess but not everyone does in the severe and often illogical way that someone with OCD might.

[Mumble]

Oh, and just in reference to Mumble's search for similarly confused conditions one very good example would be bi-polar disorder. Everyone has mood swings, but the mood swings of a bi-polar person are far more severe and not always linked to their current state in life. Oh and another example would be OCD - everyone can obsess but not everyone does in the severe and often illogical way that someone with OCD might.

True, but we don't extend these to say "Everyone is on the bi-polar spectrum" or "everyone is on the OCD spectrum". Maybe it is simply because the actual word 'spectrum' is part of the ASD label but doesn't occur in other conditions? Are there any other conditions with the word 'spectrum' (or something meaning something similar) in their titles?

 

[Tally]

I remember at a job interview trying to explain what Asperger's was and how it affected me. The interviewer kept interrupting to tell, "I know someone who does that," citing a different person each time. I think most people probably have one trait or another that is associated with autism, but it's only where enough are gathered together in one person to meet the diagnostic criteria that it actually gets defined as autism.

[Meethoss]

Ok so I watched it. Wasn't much there at all really, I thought it was pretty pointless. In terms of Christian's comment of everyone being on the spectrum that's also kinda pointless - I mean yeah, everyone is on the spectrum, just most people are at the VERY BOTTOM. I do like that program sometimes, but it really is mostly sensationalist and I think it's the same in this case.

[baranigirl]

I saw this and have completed the online test as did my DP

 

I scored 6 and he scored 46!

 

http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.c...he-autism-test/

 

I know its only a very thin idea, but it is another item he can put down for his psychiatric referral whenever it arrives!

[Meethoss]

Wow, 46 is high. It's not definitive though - he should try the EQ, Systemising and facial expression tests too to give a better indicator. I scored 35 on the AQ test when I did it some time back. Add to that my results in the EQ and Systemising test (the results together on a graph put me in the highest quadrant where other AS and ASD people lie) is what finally helped me make the decision to get a diagnosis. I did ok on the facial expression test but then it was also multiple choice - I think if the choice wasn't there I would have struggled more.

[baranigirl]

Wow, 46 is high. It's not definitive though - he should try the EQ, Systemising and facial expression tests too to give a better indicator. I scored 35 on the AQ test when I did it some time back. Add to that my results in the EQ and Systemising test (the results together on a graph put me in the highest quadrant where other AS and ASD people lie) is what finally helped me make the decision to get a diagnosis. I did ok on the facial expression test but then it was also multiple choice - I think if the choice wasn't there I would have struggled more.

 

 

oooh where will I find that one? We did the 'test' on the Aspergers syndrome foundation website which is where the whole diagnosis thing started from

[Mumble]

Wow, 46 is high.

I 'win', I scored 49. Hmm, I got 50 when I did it before as part of the dx process - maybe I'm slowly becoming less Autistic!! :lol:

 

I did ok on the facial expression test but then it was also multiple choice - I think if the choice wasn't there I would have struggled more.

I completely failed at this and got really distressed by it - and for me the multiple choice made it worse because I was looking at the words and thinking "I don't even now what that is/feels like, how the heck am I supposed to spot it in some eyes????" I still don't 'get' how you're supposed to do this - eyes are eyes - they're made of circles often with some interesting patterns in the iris, topped with caterpillars of various degrees of hairiness!!

 

[baranigirl]

wow thats the sort of thing my DP would say you know, I need to show him that one, be interesting to see what he found

[joybed]

I scored 10.

[Mandapanda]

I saw this and have completed the online test as did my DP

 

I scored 6 and he scored 46!

 

http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.c...he-autism-test/

 

I know its only a very thin idea, but it is another item he can put down for his psychiatric referral whenever it arrives!

Hi

 

I scored 23 (I know I have issues in social situations even though I would never say I had an asd, but this was higher than I would have expected ) - will have to get rest of family to do it.

 

I didn't see the programme, but I agree this series like to be quite sensationalist.

[Meethoss]

oooh where will I find that one? We did the 'test' on the Aspergers syndrome foundation website which is where the whole diagnosis thing started from

 

No sure sorry. I just Google it. Sometimes putting baron-cohen with it helps.

 

Mumble, I do take a high interest in other people, which I'm sure is unusual for someone with AS, and I think this is down to the fact that I don't understand people therefore I try my best to do so. I know where my weaknesses lie so I always try to work on these. Given one of these is picking up social ques I often watch TV programs which accentuate these signals and I often observe people whilst they are talking. I was taught from by my father to maintain eye contact with people as it helps with job interviews and so I force this and it's part of the reason why people don't notice anything different about me, it also lets me see things that people with AS might otherwise miss.

[Sally44]

I scored 10.

I think there are a whole range of other questions that would be relevant eg. sensory information, processing information, multi tasking, working memory etc.

[Suze]

????............I scored 27 but it does,nt say anywhere what thats supposed to mean!

[purplehaze]

I scored 28 but the problem with questions that you have to rate by agreeing or disagreeing etc doesn't really give you the choice to give an exact answer and I found this quite hard. I wanted to have other selections that best suited my answer. I supose what I found hard was fitting my answers into a neat little box-so to speak.

Edited February 6, 2010 by purplehaze

[baranigirl]

sorry I forgot to add the other link in

 

scores over 32 are apparently putting you as potentially 'Aspergers'

 

http://www.channel4embarrassingillnesses.c...he-autism-test/

[got the tshirt]

I scored 42 and thought I must have cheated so I did it again and scored 44, LOL, was really quite surprised, since then have become abit more aware of some stuff about myself. Wouldn't mind doing the emotions thing with the eyes though.

[baddad]

I scored minus 6 when I was trying to be normal and 147 when I was trying to be autistic....

'But you've got to answer honestly' said the man...

'I did,' I said, 'I answered completely honestly both times... But if you ask me an open ended question like "would you rather go to a party or to a library" it's very very easy to insert hypothetical variables to swing my answer either way. I'd MUCH rather go to a party... unless of course it was a party where i didn't really feel comfortable in which cas i'd rather go to the library... Unless of course it was a really crowded library with no available seating and a long queue, in which case i'd rather go to a party with all my bestest friends and jelly and ice-cream and pass the parcel'...oh JOY....

Do people really take this kind of botty dribble seriously??????????????????????

 

[oxgirl]

I got stuck on the very first question; "I prefer to do things with others rather than on my own". The questions are so vague and general it's almost impossible to answer them! I sat there for ages, just trying to decide on the first question. It depends, I kept thinking, it depends on what it is, I didn't know how to answer a question as enormously general as that. Sometimes I prefer to do some things on my own and sometimes I prefer to do some things with others, so how do you answer that?? I prefer to have a bath on my own and read a book on my own, but I prefer to go for a walk with others, etc. etc............

Anyway, I scored 26 for what it's worth.

 

~ Mel ~

Edited February 7, 2010 by oxgirl

[Tally]

I scored 50, which apparently indicates I may have ASD.

 

The questions are difficult to answer, and the example you give from even the very 1st question explains that very well. I answered "strongly disagree" to that one, because I like to spend a lot of time alone. But it is more complicated than that because I would actually like to get out and meet people and am looking at social groups for that very purpose - I wouldn't be doing that if I wanted to be by myself all the time! Many of the things I enjoy doing by myself are things I enjoy doing more than sitting at home by myself, but I would actually enjoy them even more if I could do them with other people.

 

I think the questions put ideas in your head and make you think about things that might relate to autism. The first question illustrates that well too - ALL people like to do some things by themselves. Many people feel they don't have enough time to themselves. This would be completely normal, but when you look at the question it might get you thinking that maybe you feel that way because you have autism.

[Meethoss]

Yes the questions are vague - they are supposed to be as it would be impossible to tailor each question to the person taking the test at the time. You have to remember that this test is not trying to provide a definitive answer but more of an indicator. The test research showed that in most cases people not on the spectrum scored low and people on the spectrum scored high. There are lots of similar questions in the test which are used to verify in cases where the answers can be vague.

 

It's like the old saying, however it goes, that you have to use the right tool for the right job. You pick a hammer for hitting nails and a screw driver for screwing screws. You are judging this test as something that it is not.

 

Also as I pointed out before there are other tests that are supposed to go along side it:

 

EQ test - http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/EmpathyQuo...hyQuotient.aspx

SQ test - http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Systemizin...ngQuotient.aspx

Mind in the eyes test - http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Faces/EyesTest.aspx

 

You can use your results to the first two to find out what type of brain you have and this further shows where you may stand on the spectrum: http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/ima...,938137,00.html

 

Now the point I'm trying to make is that all these tools do is help to give an indicator as to where you may stand on the spectrum and to give some guide as to whether or not you should speak to someone about it. Many people will have come to these tools for a reason, and whilst they could've gone to a doctor without them they can also help to give someone the boost in confidence they need and also to give them something to discuss e.g. you may feel like something isn't quite right with you compared to others but are not able to put your finger on it.

 

[Tally]

I agree with what you're saying Meethos, the test only ever claimed to offer an indicator and not a definitive answer. But it's always useful to point this out, since the number of people who don't realise that is always quite surprising.

[Mumble]

Very well said Meethos and Tally. These tests are not intended and never were intended to be used in isolation. For my dx assessment, they were used as one part and a basis to part of the very long clinical interview which sought to find examples and counter examples across my lifespan of these issues.

[baddad]

What this test does is reduce a serious disability to the level of a 'Take a break' coffee-time challenge personailty quiz...

Are you a Social Sally or Psychotic Sarah?

Moody Margaret or Bi-Polar Barbara?

Empathic Elsie or Sociopathic Susan... etc etc etc...

 

I know it's only supposed to be an 'indicator' and nobody's claiming anything more for it than that, but for heaven's sake these types of questionnaires have the names of 'top ten' professionals attached to them and that lends them a level of credibility to the casual punter that really is (IMO) unreasonable and dangerous.

Have you ever seen an 'online self diagnosis kit' for Schizophrenia? For Bi-Polar Disorder? (and before someone points me to a link offering both: If they do exist - should they ????)

I don't think of autism as a 'trivial' matter, but this makes it trivial - especially when discovered as a link from a C4 TV series that's the medical equivalent of a Gok Kwan makeover show or a 'How Clean is your Home?' gawkfest... the other side of the coin is that genuinely vulnerable people or genuinely manipulative people, or genuinely suggestable people, or genuinely unhappy but don't know why people (etc etc etc) may 'reinvent' themselves to the templates being offered to them; with potentially devastating consequences to their lives or to the lives of those who come into contact with them.

This stuff makes autism - especially the very very in right now geek chic AS variant that has no basis in reality whatsoever but is becoming a staple of 'Yoof Kulcha telly (Hollyoaks/Skins etc etc etc) a 'bit of harmless fun'; summink you can do down the pub on a Tuesday night on your I-Phone wiv yer mates; summink you can then use to justify any piece of cr*ppy behaviour or badly judged drunken fumble, rumble or tumble you might enact thereafter from now unto eternity, for ever and ever, amen...

 

there's lovely, ennit!

 

L&P

 

BD

[call me jaded]

I scored 1, but have been let loose 'in the community' for some time now

 

When I was housebound I'm sure it was higher.

[Sally44]

I'm sorry, but I think these types of questionaires can be useful. They are not definitive, but they are put together - and I presume this one was put together - by professionals and not by the editing team of a weekly magazine.

They may indicate to some individuals that they should seek further assessment. They are not giving a diagnosis. For many people who do not get access to health or autism professionals this can be something to use as a reason why they think they need more assessment.

I don't think it harms anyone, as does any kind of questonnaire that gives a result.

And I don't think it would be unreasonable for a questionnaire for bi-polar to be available - if it isn't already. It might flag up some individuals who have not received any kind of help whatsoever. And surely that is a good thing.

If we want information to be 'out there' we have to understand that in some cases it will be in a format that is mainstream. That does not mean it has to trivialise, and when that does happen we can always complain about it.

There is no way that any article or questionnaire can go into all the subtle differences and difficulties that range across the spectrum.

 

On a different note, it would be interesting to find out if all those on the spectrum have this same visual difference of not gaining information from faces etc. That could be a useful diagnostic tool if it turned out to be true.

[Jannih]

JP was watching this on his own TV upstairs last night (I refuse to watch this programme with him, all those dangly bits put me right off my jaffa cakes) & he came bouncing downstairs & told me that the doctor said 'everyone is on the spectrum'. Now, I'm in agreement with views here that to say that diminishes & trivialises AS - but JP loves the thought that everyone is on the spectrum, as it makes him feel more 'normal'. I told him what folk were saying here to give him something to think about. I think he's at the stage where he wants to 'fit in' rather than accept his 'difference', IYSWIM.

 

 

Neurotypicals will be on "The spectrum." If they score between 15-18, they will fall in the neurotypical range. If they score over 30, then they are considered to be in the autistic range.

 

Most people will have an autistic trait, which will give them a higher score but it might not bring them into the autistic range.