LEA using barrister at Tribunal!

[Athena]

I am going to SEND/IST tribunal for our daughter, who is in mainstream. We are not going for a specialist placement or an independent school, yet the LEA are still going to the expense of employing a barrister to represent them at the Tribunal.

 

Is this just a a scare tactic to intimidate parents? Any one else with experience of coming up against a barrister at SENDIST?

 

Would be grateful for any advice, as TBH, it has put the wind up me a bit, but I will not be deterred!

 

So much for the Lamb Inquiry and report, that's all I can say! The recommendations all sounds pretty hollow, based on my terrible experience with the LEA.

 

Also how do I deal with the SALT and OT who work with my daughter but who the LEA will be calling as witness for their case?

 

I am now loath to say anything positive about DD to them, for fear that they will quote me and use it against me in the Hearing!

 

I seem to remember that there is some professional code of conduct, if someone can point me in the right direction then I can quote it if needed.

 

This is so hard!

 

[bensmum2]

Hi, sorry i have no experience of this , except i would say go to ipsea for help, they have a website, they are brilliant and will even come to tribunals with you, they have helped me get my son a statement after 9 years and 4 previous attepmst , im about to go to sendist to appeal his statement but what is happeneding to you is really worrying and you need someone like ipsea, they have a website and in a tribunal situation there is a special helpline gets u help faster, the tribunal helpline number is 0845 602 9579

, they even have legal advisors too, if its hard to get through just keep trying, good luck x

 

 

[Athena]

Thanks bensmums2, and well done to you for getting a Statement for your son! I just keep thinking of the aims of the Lamb Inquiry and how so far, in practical terms, it has not made one jot of difference!

[Sally44]

I am going to SEND/IST tribunal for our daughter, who is in mainstream. We are not going for a specialist placement or an independent school, yet the LEA are still going to the expense of employing a barrister to represent them at the Tribunal.

 

Is this just a a scare tactic to intimidate parents? Any one else with experience of coming up against a barrister at SENDIST?

 

Would be grateful for any advice, as TBH, it has put the wind up me a bit, but I will not be deterred!

 

So much for the Lamb Inquiry and report, that's all I can say! The recommendations all sounds pretty hollow, based on my terrible experience with the LEA.

 

Also how do I deal with the SALT and OT who work with my daughter but who the LEA will be calling as witness for their case?

 

I am now loath to say anything positive about DD to them, for fear that they will quote me and use it against me in the Hearing!

 

I seem to remember that there is some professional code of conduct, if someone can point me in the right direction then I can quote it if needed.

 

This is so hard!

 

 

I understand totally how it can make you feel about saying anything about your child. But I advise you that you do have to be careful. My LEA used my emails to the Autism Outreach Teacher to argue that I had reservations about my son going to an autism unit. That was not the case. I had simply asked if the autism unit could stretch him academically - which is a valid question. So just be aware, as you already are. You can also get specific advice from the LEA/NHS professionals as well if you write to them asking for their opinion. It all depends what the question is. I've this morning received a letter from my OT in which she apologies for not delivering an OT programme, but she explains she does not have the funding to do it. That is evidence in my favour. She then goes on to say that she does not see he has problems in the classroom. That's not good. But he does have a diagnosis of SID and I have other evidence that sensory issues to impact on him in learning. She has also said that she feels it is better to put together a programme of OT at home so that he is not constantly taken out of class learning. That is in my favour as an independent school with OT on site can weave OT therapy into the lesson, breaktimes and PE. So just try to read between the lines of what you have, and ask for clarification on any issues you feel are in your favour.

 

Try not to be intimidated by a barrister attending. I'm surprised as well that they are using one. Unless they feel that your child has such needs that an independent school might be the one you ask for at Tribunal??? Can a mainstream met her needs? Does she need a whole school approach??

 

The Panel was very nice (my experience). They will read all the evidence. Have you got together any private reports yourself? As you are asking for LEA maintained what is their argument against the school you have asked for??

 

As already suggested contact IPSEA.

 

Using a barrister against a parent might actually backfire against them. Do go to tribunal. You have nothing to lose. And say right at the very beginning to the panel that you feel very nervous and intimidated especially as the LEA have employed a barrister, as you feel out of your depth. Ask them to make any questions very clear to you because you have no experience of this procedure before. You can take someone with you. If there is another parent/friend who has already been to tribunal, that would be a bonus. If you don't understand anything ask for them to explain it. For example at my son's tribunal the Panel said there was no evidence that my son needed 30 mins direct therapy every week. I thought that meant they would not specify. What they actually meant was that they wanted a termly figure eg. 6 hours per term of direct therapy which equates to 30 mins a week or as agreed between the parents/school and SALT (that makes it flexible in favour of the child not the system), and 9 hours per term for laising with school/parents, observations and taking notes, training the TA, making up to date report for Annual review and attending MEP meetings. So I ended up with it being even more specific.

 

[JsMum]

I am going to SEND/IST tribunal for our daughter, who is in mainstream. We are not going for a specialist placement or an independent school, yet the LEA are still going to the expense of employing a barrister to represent them at the Tribunal.

 

Is this just a a scare tactic to intimidate parents? Any one else with experience of coming up against a barrister at SENDIST?

 

Would be grateful for any advice, as TBH, it has put the wind up me a bit, but I will not be deterred!

 

So much for the Lamb Inquiry and report, that's all I can say! The recommendations all sounds pretty hollow, based on my terrible experience with the LEA.

 

Also how do I deal with the SALT and OT who work with my daughter but who the LEA will be calling as witness for their case?

 

I am now loath to say anything positive about DD to them, for fear that they will quote me and use it against me in the Hearing!

 

I seem to remember that there is some professional code of conduct, if someone can point me in the right direction then I can quote it if needed.

 

This is so hard!

 

I know how deverstated you feel we where due to go to tribunal and even though I had a solisitor she couldnt attend as the costs didnt cover that process as I had recieved Legal aid for our support and it only covers reports and doing the case so I was going to go on my todd, I have no friends or family who could of gone with me as the case was very personal and confidential, so I was prepared to go alone, I was very hurt becuase the LEA where going to have two representatives and the very LEA psychologist who had done various assessments and so I too felt very betrayed but what hurt the most was that the LEA where going to such extream measures to BLOCK services and provisions our children NEED, the LEA were like a barracade against my son for the support he needed, I really dont know how they can sleep at night, they should do a HOLICKs advert!

 

I would still go, do not be scared off, this well could backfire like Sally says, the panel dont like this tactic just as you and I dont, at the end of the day you can only do your best, pretend they are sat there with no clothes on and the LEAs high status professionalism wont shine like the LEA are hoping.

 

They are doing this to intimidate you, so go with your head up high and go get them, you can do this, I showed I was prepared to go all the way and a week before the date of the tribunal the LEA changed everything we wanted in the statement and he has been at his specialist school for 18 months and the changes are amazing, it is worth it in the end.

 

If there is anything we can do on the forum just ask, you can do this!

 

JsMumxxx

 

Edited March 26, 2010 by JsMum

[Athena]

Thanks so much for your replies, it really means a lot to me.

 

I am not going to be intimidated by the LEA's bully boy tactics. I will do my very best for my daughter. I will go to the Tribunal with my head held high, my heart pounding and palms sweating , with a bottle of Rescue Remedy in my handbag and I will tell the panel members the truth. I know my daughter better than anyone else and I know what she needs educationally.

 

Feel better already!

 

You may have to bear with me though, as I am sure that I will have more questions and wobbles on the way!

 

As to how the LEA officers sleep at night, never mind Horlicks, I should think that with the misery they cause to families (that they are meant, allegedly to be helping) on their conscience, they must need knock out drops!

[daniels-mum]

I completely agree with Sally and Jsmum, I think this will backfire on the LA. It is a really good idea to say you feel intimidated at the offset as that will set the tone for the hearing and the panel will take this into account. They also asked me if I had a photo of D which I dint, so I would take the sweetest photo you have of your daughter!!

 

I dont think the panel will like the fact the LA has a barrister and called two witnesses. It is also very good advice to contact IPSEA aswell, also the NAS can provide representation at tribunal in certain cirumstances but I am not sure of the criteria and how available it is.

 

When I went to tribunal in Jan the LA called the SENCO and Ed Psyc as witnesses and this backfired as they both said things to help my case, unwittingley in some instances!! Before we went in to the hearing I saw them all sat in their waiting area (as this was seperate area to where we were) and they looked like the hadnt a care in the world, they didnt look like that when they came out! I honestly think they thought it was goin to be a walk in the park and the hearing was just a formality. The SENCO particularly got a really rough ride, I have spoken to her since and she said it was her first tribunal and she is not in a hurry to go to any more, she said she certainly wasnt expecting any of that.

 

I think once you are actually in there and the hearing is underway it wont be as bad as you are expecting, I thought it would be like a courtroom and the witnesses would all be cross examing me and trying to catch me out, but it wasnt like that at all, I actually did very little talking. The majority of exchanges were between the panel and the SENCO. The panel wouldnt let you be intimidated

either. And the other side wouldnt dare disagree with anything you say relating to your daughter at home as that would be the same as accusing you as lying and that would backfire on them spectacularly.

 

The panel were very nice people and I really did think that they had DS interests at heart, they asked very intelligent and relevant questions, I was impressed that they had obviously read the full bundle of papers before so knew the case very well, and I am sure that will be the case for all hearings. When the head of the panel summed up at the end it more or less comes down to one thing, does D require more resources that would be available from a mainstream schools normal resources, if so, a statement should be made. Individual LA assesment criterias are irrelevant, as the law is the law.

 

People told me I wouldnt get a stat assesment, then they told me I wouldnt get a statement, and I didnt have a barrister, but we won the tribunal and I am now waiting for the final statement to come through after I rejected the first useless draft statement. I know it is easy to say dont worry but keep strong xx

[daniels-mum]

I really dont know how they can sleep at night, they should do a HOLICKs advert!

 

That made me laugh so much,

[bensmum2]

you shuldn't need to go it alone , IPSEA will come with you they have promised me that. We had to go look at the lEA's named mainstream school on wednesday, the lady who showed us round said she knew what it was like to be an overprotective parent 3 times !! and then told me to stop saying he couldnt cope in mainstream becasue he would begin to believe it a,and a boy in the learning support room , thsi fantastic safe place where no one gets bullied,called my son a bowling ball head!!! All that was within an ho9ur of stepping foot into the place, needless to say that will form part of my own appeal, I will be on the phoen to IPSEA myslef monday when the tribunal support line is open again, good luck x

[Kathryn]

I don't know how many LA's use barristers routinely - some seem to do it more often than others. Try not to worry. The panel will possibly be a lot tougher on the LA and kinder to you as a result.

 

It may be possible to get a rep from the NAS or IPSEA or other voluntary organisations, but demand is high and it's usually parents with the most obvious need who get priority. IPSEA advisors can give you support over the phone to help with preparation.

 

(Danielsmum - I think I must have missed your news that you'd won. Belated well done and hope the final stages of the process go smoothly. )

 

K x

 

 

[Grace]

Hi,

 

You were asking about professional code of conducts?

 

I have copied and pasted these parts from the Speech and Language Best Practice Guide. The very best of luck!

 

SLTs at the Tribunal need to remain objective. They are acting as an expert witness not as a mediator or an advocate. They should;

 

- focus on the child’s SLCN (Speech, language communication needs) and how these needs should be met within their educational/learning environment. If possible look at progress over time and impact of intervention.

 

- provide precise factual and objective information and give their professional opinion on matters only within their expertise. (See CQ3 and Working in Harmony.

 

- if asked, provide professional balanced opinion based on experience and knowledge of the child. Make an accurate identification of the client's needs that is not influenced by pressures (such as the desires of the client, parent or carer or time constraints) in the client's best interest. If it is not possible to provide a report to the appropriate standard within the given timeframe then this information and the reasons should be conveyed to both parties (LA and parent/s) in writing. Ref CQ3 and Working in Harmony.

 

- be prepared to explain to the SEND Panel any specialist information.

 

3.2. DUTY OF CARE

 

 

3.2.1. Speech and Language Therapists have a duty of care for any child they are writing advice for. Advice should be written with the needs of the child in mind, not the available resources.

 

 

3.3. PRINCIPLES UNDERPINNING THE WRITING OF ADVICE:

 

 

3.3.1. Any models of intervention, facilities and resources recommended should relate to the speech language and communication needs of the child and not to the speech and language therapy resources available.

 

 

3.9.3. When SLT’s are writing advice at the statutory assessment stage they must only describe the child’s speech, language and communication needs in line with the Code of Practice. Information recommending a specific educational placement should not be included at this stage (Ref SEN Code of Practice 7.80).

 

3.9.6. If the therapist has working knowledge of placement/s within the appeal, they can give an opinion as to whether the child’s speech, language and communication needs can be met in the placement/s and this could be orally at a Tribunal hearing. The primary focus of SLT advice is to identify the SLT intervention required and to explain how this should be delivered in terms of support and environmental adjustments.

[Athena]

Hi Grace, that's very helpful, just the kind of thing that I was looking for! Thank you.

 

Does anyone know if there is something similar for Ed Psychs and OTs?

 

Also the LEA have sent copies our my private SALT and OT reports to the Primary Care Trust (PCT) but haven't said who they have sent them to. Is this allowed?

 

The LEA will also be sending in an OT and SALT to prepare reports on DD to counter my private reports, which I expected,but I didn't expect them to send off my private reports to the Health Service for their comments.

 

Sorry for all the questions, feeling in a bit of a pickle at the moment!

[Sally44]

Before we went to tribunal the LEA did send off our private SALT report to the LEA/NHS SALT. She agreed with it in its entirety and also added a couple of things. So it worked in our favour. However, after the first year, this same SALT is now recommending a reduction in hours.

 

I have asked this SALT if a 'whole school approach' is needed for my son and she has said yes. However I doubt very much I would get that in writing, and if I mentioned this guidance I don't think that would make her put that in writing. So I presume you will be using this to argue your case at tribunal??

[Sally44]

Hi,

 

You were asking about professional code of conducts?

 

I have copied and pasted these parts from the Speech and Language Best Practice Guide. The very best of luck!

 

SLTs at the Tribunal need to remain objective. They are acting as an expert witness not as a mediator or an advocate. They should;

 

- focus on the child’s SLCN (Speech, language communication needs) and how these needs should be met within their educational/learning environment. If possible look at progress over time and impact of intervention.

 

- provide precise factual and objective information and give their professional opinion on matters only within their expertise. (See CQ3 and Working in Harmony.

 

- if asked, provide professional balanced opinion based on experience and knowledge of the child. Make an accurate identification of the client's needs that is not influenced by pressures (such as the desires of the client, parent or carer or time constraints) in the client's best interest. If it is not possible to provide a report to the appropriate standard within the given timeframe then this information and the reasons should be conveyed to both parties (LA and parent/s) in writing. Ref CQ3 and Working in Harmony.

 

- be prepared to explain to the SEND Panel any specialist information.

 

3.2. DUTY OF CARE

 

 

3.2.1. Speech and Language Therapists have a duty of care for any child they are writing advice for. Advice should be written with the needs of the child in mind, not the available resources.

 

 

3.3. PRINCIPLES UNDERPINNING THE WRITING OF ADVICE:

 

 

3.3.1. Any models of intervention, facilities and resources recommended should relate to the speech language and communication needs of the child and not to the speech and language therapy resources available.

 

 

3.9.3. When SLT’s are writing advice at the statutory assessment stage they must only describe the child’s speech, language and communication needs in line with the Code of Practice. Information recommending a specific educational placement should not be included at this stage (Ref SEN Code of Practice 7.80).

 

3.9.6. If the therapist has working knowledge of placement/s within the appeal, they can give an opinion as to whether the child’s speech, language and communication needs can be met in the placement/s and this could be orally at a Tribunal hearing. The primary focus of SLT advice is to identify the SLT intervention required and to explain how this should be delivered in terms of support and environmental adjustments.

 

 

This is a very useful document. But I am wondering HOW do you use it. If you quote this guidance at LEA/NHS SALT, OT etc I don't think that will make them be more forthcoming about the support and input that particular child needs. Do you have any specific ideas on how it could be used.

[Grace]

Hi Grace, that's very helpful, just the kind of thing that I was looking for! Thank you.

 

Does anyone know if there is something similar for Ed Psychs and OTs?

 

Also the LEA have sent copies our my private SALT and OT reports to the Primary Care Trust (PCT) but haven't said who they have sent them to. Is this allowed?

 

The LEA will also be sending in an OT and SALT to prepare reports on DD to counter my private reports, which I expected,but I didn't expect them to send off my private reports to the Health Service for their comments.

 

Sorry for all the questions, feeling in a bit of a pickle at the moment!

 

I think it is normal to do that, as if you have had any testing done, it probably means that their SALT can't repeat them, but will need them to form an opinion. This is what the guide says:

 

When a Speech and Language Therapist is providing a second opinion, particularly in the context of a statement of special educational needs they should expect to receive and provide a list of recent or planned formal assessments of speech and language in order to prevent the possibility of test score invalidation.

 

2.3.2. SLTs will show respect for their colleagues and will not seek to denigrate others. Positive and courteous behaviour will enable professionals and parents to continue to work together after a Tribunal, regardless of the outcome.

 

2.3.3. SLTs need to acknowledge that children and young people thrive in different provisions. SLTs should demonstrate the benefits of their provision without undermining or criticising other providers explicitly or by implication.

 

Hope that helps/x

[Grace]

This is a very useful document. But I am wondering HOW do you use it. If you quote this guidance at LEA/NHS SALT, OT etc I don't think that will make them be more forthcoming about the support and input that particular child needs. Do you have any specific ideas on how it could be used.

 

 

Hi Sally,

 

I think one key thing is that they should say what the child needs and not what is available. If they try to say there is no point recommending things that are not available; then you can point to the code i.e. let them know you are aware of their responsibilites. If they can not provide the help, but the child needs it, as you know, it is up to the LEA to get the help in from elsewhere.

 

Certainly I know of a two cases, one SALT need and one OT need, where the NHS could not provide the help so the LEA had to pay for private therapists to come in.

 

I think for me it also helps to have an idea how they SHOULD behave at tribunal!x