Ouch! Food for thought....

[baddad]

I've just seen the trailer for the new series of outnumbered...

Ben just been told he has to take responsibility for his own actions...

'Well... See... Most of who I am is genetics - which is you. The rest of who I am is environment - which is you...

So everything I do, including the badstuff, is really down to you...

I'm sure there's a flaw in that logic somewhere, but, erm......

 

[Karen A]

We just saw it too.

[dana]

He is smart! There is nothing wrong with HIS logic. The frases such as those of 'taking responsibility for your own actions' could be questioned, esspecially in this far from perfect world, where things are connected often in strange and unpredictable ways.

Don't take this personally, Baddad!

 

Danaxxx

[Kathryn]

Yes but take comfort - following the same logic, we can pin the blame on our own parents for our own imperfections. So no one need ever take any responsibility. Yippee!!

 

I feel a Philip Larkin quote coming on - but it's too rude for the forum, I fear.

 

(I so love Outnumbered. Glad it's back )

 

K x

 

 

[baddad]

I feel a Philip Larkin quote coming on - but it's too rude for the forum, I fear.

 

(K x

 

They may not mean to, but they do...

ORLSO...

I saw an advert tonight for a pregnancy indicator... I can't remember what it was called so let's just call it 'the sproglog'... Anyhoo, the advert had this woman talking and the caption under her said something like 'Jane - a sproglog expert.'

Which effectively means she's an EXPERT in piddling on sticks. Now far be it from me to suggest there's any sort of dumbing down in our educational system, but an expert in piddling on sticks??? Do you think that's a degree course or just a diploma? Either way, one hell of an impressive CV, eh? Perhaps she has a Masters in gobbing into a test tube? Or dribbling into a petri dish?

My brother used to fart into his hot-water bottle - ahead of his time, undoubtedly, but probably a genius...

 

 

L&P

 

BD

[Kathryn]

Which effectively means she's an EXPERT in piddling on sticks. Now far be it from me to suggest there's any sort of dumbing down in our educational system, but an expert in piddling on sticks???

 

Now now, you're just jealous, BD, because you never got to do this. At least - I assume not.

 

K x

[baddad]

Now now, you're just jealous, BD, because you never got to do this. At least - I assume not.

 

K x

 

Ah... but I can write my name in the snow... I'd like to see her try that! Erm, on second thoughts, I wouldn't like to see her try that, but, erm - Well, YKWIM...

 

nnight!

 

[barefoot wend]

Talking of dumbing down..... I laugh at Masterchef when they always label one of the contestants 'Children's Doctor' - do they think we are too stupid to understand what paediatrician means, or is it because they worry that the public will mistake it for another word beginning with paed and they'll get hate mail? Either way, it's a bit sad.

 

Barefoot

[Tally]

Apparently if a man takes a pregnancy test, it comes up positive

[baddad]

Talking of dumbing down..... I laugh at Masterchef when they always label one of the contestants 'Children's Doctor' - do they think we are too stupid to understand what paediatrician means, or is it because they worry that the public will mistake it for another word beginning with paed and they'll get hate mail? Either way, it's a bit sad.

 

Barefoot

 

They've probably got no one on the production team who can spell it! I dislike Masterchef mainly for its presenters - John Torode seems a smug pillock and the cockles and whelks porky greengrocer a fawning sycophant. He just repeats whatever JT or the 'expert' says - often not even bothering to paraphrase.

I mean, how far out of their way must thay have gone to find new hosts even more irritating than he-of-the-irritable-vowel-syndrome Gross lloydman?

Mind you, it could be worse - Ainsley Harriot!

On a side note... annoyed to see The Hairy Marys Bikers are doing a cooking show at a local theatre. Ben would really enjoy going to see Jamie or Hugh or someone doing this locally, and actually considered the H M B's briefly when he saw them in the local paper despite not liking their show, just because there were no other options. Who'd want to watch a couple of daft, overweight, overly-hirsuite loudmouths telling everyone how wonderfult they are in the kitchen, fer gawds sake?

I've told Ben I'll see if we can get to a 'taste' weekend in London, or if we can find something a bit less hairy locally we'll give that a go - just so long as it aint John Torode or Ainsley Harriot!

 

Tally - dunno about men's wee testing positive, but it's nice to hear from a women admitting that men can wee on a lollystick. Most would have us believe they can't even hit a toilet bowel from two paces!

 

L&P

 

BD

[Karen A]

They've probably got no one on the production team who can spell it! I dislike Masterchef mainly for its presenters - John Torode seems a smug pillock and the cockles and whelks porky greengrocer a fawning sycophant. He just repeats whatever JT or the 'expert' says - often not even bothering to paraphrase.

I mean, how far out of their way must thay have gone to find new hosts even more irritating than he-of-the-irritable-vowel-syndrome Gross lloydman?

Mind you, it could be worse - Ainsley Harriot!

On a side note... annoyed to see The Hairy Marys Bikers are doing a cooking show at a local theatre. Ben would really enjoy going to see Jamie or Hugh or someone doing this locally, and actually considered the H M B's briefly when he saw them in the local paper despite not liking their show, just because there were no other options. Who'd want to watch a couple of daft, overweight, overly-hirsuite loudmouths telling everyone how wonderfult they are in the kitchen, fer gawds sake?

I've told Ben I'll see if we can get to a 'taste' weekend in London, or if we can find something a bit less hairy locally we'll give that a go - just so long as it aint John Torode or Ainsley Harriot!

 

Tally - dunno about men's wee testing positive, but it's nice to hear from a women admitting that men can wee on a lollystick. Most would have us believe they can't even hit a toilet bowel from two paces!

 

L&P

 

BD

 

If you happen to want information on eating in either the eateree of John Torode or Greg Wallace I can advise on both.

John Torode has opened a new place in the last year in Spitalfields market.My husband passes most days.John Torode is always pottering around looking busy.Menu rather expensive for what it is.

Greg Wallace has a place that was reviewed in the observor some time ago and was slated.Would not have done well in Masterchef much to our glee.

We only read the food critics for the fun when someone gets one or two out of ten....when it is one of those two all the better.

Karen.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Karen A

[Special_talent123]

Am i right in thinking Ben in outnumbered has aspergers, from my point of view it seems he does have the traits what do u think?

[baddad]

Am i right in thinking Ben in outnumbered has aspergers, from my point of view it seems he does have the traits what do u think?

 

Don't think so... in fact the writers, I think, go out of their way to make the point that he's just a particularly, erm, 'individual' kid! ADHD has been mentioned in a couple of episodes by people other than the parents, but he's highly creative, highly imaginative, understands 'social' very well (even though he doesn't respect the conventions of it), and is very successfully manipulative of his environment(s). I think the first and last can apply to some autistic people - the latter especially - but the two in the middle are defintely not indicative of AS!

Funnily enough, though, I think all three kids (and mum and dad too, come to that) show just how 'normal' traits of autism are: the older son is defintely a bit straight/geeky/'overly formal', his little sis analyzes and obsesses about everything, and Ben is defintely 'active but odd'!. The twist is its the 'perfect' family next door who are dysfunctional - mum hospitalising dad with a le crueset frying pan and the kids walking quietly in single file like Midwich Cuckoos.

 

[Mumble]

he's highly creative, highly imaginative, understands 'social' very well (even though he doesn't respect the conventions of it), and is very successfully manipulative of his environment(s). I think the first and last can apply to some autistic people - the latter especially - but the two in the middle are definitely not indicative of AS!

I haven't watched this programme, so my comment is just about the above quote. I strongly disagree that being highly imaginative is not indicative of AS. 'Imagination' (or rather lack thereof) within the triad of impairments refers to social imagination not imagination imagination - hum, that doesn't make sense does it?

[justine1]

I haven't watched this programme, so my comment is just about the above quote. I strongly disagree that being highly imaginative is not indicative of AS. 'Imagination' (or rather lack thereof) within the triad of impairments refers to social imagination not imagination imagination - hum, that doesn't make sense does it?

I was told the same thing by the paed mumble,so I agree with you.My son with AS has almost zero imagination and doesnt "play" with me whereas my four year old has too much of an imagination,which means he can also be on the spectrum,though not necessarily AS(according to the paed who specialises in ASD.)

 

Baddad I agree the irony of the "perfect" family makes me laugh.I think most familys often think(well I do)"my family is so bad and very dysfunctional and I wish we were more like the "Jones"" not realising the "Jones'" are equally as dysfunctional(hope that made sense!

 

I also think Ben is more ADHD,he is so hyper and I remember one episode where SS where called,I think he broke his arm,then the doc was reading his long list of injuries,the dad then kept saying things in his defense but seemed to be digging himself into a bigger hole!

 

I like the little girl,Karen,especially the episode with the "suicide bomber" questions!

 

More excited about the new Doctor Who series starting tonight.Got the microwave popcorn ready for the event

[baddad]

I haven't watched this programme, so my comment is just about the above quote. I strongly disagree that being highly imaginative is not indicative of AS. 'Imagination' (or rather lack thereof) within the triad of impairments refers to social imagination not imagination imagination - hum, that doesn't make sense does it?

 

Imaginative or highly imaginative. I'd agree that autism doesn't rule out some kinds of imagination, but the kind of imagination Ben displays is completely uncompromised. I think sometimes we can be so keen to deny negative aspects of autism that the boundaries get blurred - which i've said many times in the past regarding inappropriate, 'mis', casual and over-diagnosis...

Do appreciate that you haven'e seen the prog, mumble, so wouldn't be aware of Ben's 'skillset' and i do agree that autistic people aren't necessarily unimaginative, but I still think, whether related to 'social' or other aspects of imagination, that some compromises of imagination remain a key and essential element of the diagnostic criteria and that it is, pretty much, universal. I know the triad has it's knockers these days (oooh matron!) and that some of them are quite 'high profile', but if we keep chipping away at all three 'legs' of the traingle effectively you end up with nothing. Now if society is suddenly going to take a giant leap forward and acknowledge - and stop differentiating against - people who have more 'traits' than others I'm all for it. But until that day comes I think we have to work with the understanding we have instead of keep redefining the boundaries to accommodate more and more 'subsets', because there will be a point where the umbrella (term) just isn't big enough to keep everyone sheltering under it dry. Personally, I think we've already got to that point, and I think some of those 'high profile' experts have created that situation. But then, they haven't got to live with the consequences, despite making their living from them

 

L&P

 

BD

[Mumble]

Do appreciate that you haven't seen the prog, mumble, so wouldn't be aware of Ben's 'skillset' and i do agree that autistic people aren't necessarily unimaginative, but I still think, whether related to 'social' or other aspects of imagination, that some compromises of imagination remain a key and essential element of the diagnostic criteria and that it is, pretty much, universal. I know the triad has it's knockers these days (oooh matron!) and that some of them are quite 'high profile', but if we keep chipping away at all three 'legs' of the triangle effectively you end up with nothing.

I do appreciate that I haven't watched the programme at all and that I have no idea who this Ben is, that's why I acknowledged that I hadn't seen it in my original post and stated quite clearly, I thought, that I was just referring to what was written. Referring again just to what is written, I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say. Imagination within the triad refers to social imagination. This isn't me trying to change the triad, the dx criteria or what they mean. It is what is meant by and understood within the triad. At no point has lack of imagination ever been intended to refer to imaginative imagination (I hope that distinction makes sense) - this has always been a misunderstanding of this leg (to use your term) of the triad. This is not diluting, changing, chopping up or removing negative aspects of Autism. This is just trying to make clear what these terms actually mean.

 

Social imagination refers to the ability to think about what others might be thinking or feeling, to predict how others may act/react and to think about alternative outcomes and ways in which things might happen (to name a few examples). It is strongly tied in with issues around the need for planning and routine and the dislike of change. It also relates to understanding (or not) why people act as they do and to knowing that others think differently from yourself and being able to think about what they may be thinking.

 

Sorry to have gone and I'm not attacking you BD, this is just one of my biggies that makes me get the ladder out and climb up onto my giant soap box. I do have huge problems with social imagination (see some of my posts/topics on this forum) particularly in terms of being able to think through (and cope with) alternative outcomes and with understanding how others think (particularly within the context of alternative outcomes - I will decide on one outcome and what people must be thinking within this - usually based on what I'm thinking - and can't, without great difficulty, come up with alternatives). However, in the right context and company, I have a very strong - and often slightly worrying - imaginative imagination. This isn't something I would want to be denied because of a misunderstanding of the dx criteria.

 

So, no chipping away at this leg of the triangle (even though triangles don't actually have legs... ) - at least not from me - but more of a defining and clarifying what that leg is made up of.

[baddad]

No, didn't think for one minute it was you trying to chip away at the criteria, and as i say, I do agree up to a point, but I still stand by what I say. And 'imagination' is a difficult one to pin down, because I think it firstly it changes as people get older (and I think in that respect it's like many other areas of adult dx - you have to look backwards to get a proper perspective) and secondly it's something that means different things to different people, so any views about what it is or isn't are - for the individual - subjective, and any real 'measure' has to be based on a collective interpretation of the meaning... trying to think of another example, say someone fill out a dating questionnaire or personal ad and states 'GSOH'. The person who meets them might find them boring as, erm, poo, but what does that mean? It could mean that the person who thinks they've got a GSOH is mistaken. It could mean that the person meeting them hasn't got a GSOH. It could mean that they both have a GSOH but different sense of humour. Or it could mean that neither has, or any combination of the lot! Now, the only 'real' way you can measure that is to throw lots of different 'humourous' situations at them and see which, if any/all they respond to and how and which if any/all tickle the funny bones of a random sample of people extrapolated to offer an 'average' humour response. But that would probably take all of the fun out of it!

On the subject of social imagination I totally agree that this is the most telling, but how do you draw a boundary between social imagination and other types of imagination? There is a huge overlap. You, for example, say you regularly have problems with figurative language - i.e. people saying 'sorry' other than as by way of a personal apology... Is that social imagination, or 'wider' imagination? And if social imagination, why can't 'wider' imagination compensate for it by 'imagining' the other meanings rather than 'intellectualising' them? The process of transposing meaning isn't a socially imaginative process, it's a semantic imaginative process (if there is such a thing!). Imaging a pink butterfly flying to the moon and buying a string of sausages isn't an imaginative process, it's a semantic process based on combining words and the images associated with them in nonsensicle ways - which is precisely the basis of most jokes.

Having said all of that, that's just my completely subjective take on what imagination means, whereas you/others might have a completely different take. Unless we know for sure we're talking about the same thing we can't be sure we're not talking at cross purposes!

My personal feeling is that imagination is compromised in autistic people, even though I know some autistic people who are very good at combining words and the meanings associated with them in some wonderfully nonsensicle ways. In a funny way I think that autistic people who can do that can be disadvantaged by the ability; either because they use it as a 'mask' to hide other aspects of their compromised understanding or because other people take that mask at face value. Or maybe that's just my imagination running away with me, as that great autistic singer songwriter Mick Jagger once said!

 

L&P

 

BD