to tell off or not to???

[mum232010]

the problem is this.....

 

my son dylan, almost 6, suspected to be on the asd somewhere.

he does seam to need alot of firm disapline, more than the average child, and it seams to calm him in a way, if you know what i mean? stops him going more hyper etc which he cant stop his self.

but lately, i am getting alot of lip off my parents, mostly my mum, i have had years of '' he needs a slapped ######'' and '' it never did u lot any harm'' (i am 29) and yes i agree in a way, and it did teach me to behave, haha.

but, this doesnt seam to work on him anyway, like it would any other child, it makes him more angry, we found this out when he was tiny and i would slightly tap his hand when told 'no', so over the last 3 yrs or so we had time out, as also advised by nursery at the time, and generally dont like to smack to be honest. time out worked for my 9 yr old, and my now 3 yr old, and she is an angel most of the time, i mention time out and she stops been naughty, then comes the over praise etc etc, we tried the lot.

when dyl was excluded last week for throwing a toy and splitting someones head open, my mum told me not to let him on the computer at all for a week, and not treats etc, well,,, we decided to do this for 2 days so he could think about what he had done. it didnt even make a difference, nothing does with him really, as he doesnt realise what he did was bad anyway, he just doesnt understand it. but we wanted to do it anyway as we would have done the same with the other 2.

it was a tough 2 days as he has obsessions with the same comp game and level of mario brothers, over and over again, and watching the same youtube mario game over and over too. so that was hard for him and us.

then once i told my mum she went mad at me, saying i am letting him get away with too much!!!!! i was so angry, the way i see it is, if the social workers, school, parent partnership, and everypone else involved are telling me and my partner we are doing everything right, then why cant she?

 

the problem with a child with asd/autiiam/aspergers/adhd, which ever he has. is they dont get it anyway, but i do feel disapline is a good thing to a certain extent, god we seam to be telling him off constantly for things, when i dont even know if it is his fault or not??

 

how do you deal with the telling off?? nothing registers with him, he doesnt know why his answer is ''he/she made me do it, they made me angry'' and since it usually happens when he cant have something now , like queing up, he goes mad as he says he cant wait, it takes too long etc. so in other peoples eyes he just looks like a spoilt child haviong a tantrum and who looks like he always gets his own way, but its actually the opposite!!

 

then my parents question him, saying ''your sister will get some sweets, but you wont as you hurt someone' or ''nsaughty boys dont get treats' and dad saying ' i would clout him' and its getting me down so much now, they dont get it, and now i am getting down about it

 

sorry its a long one, but i just cant wait for the day he is diagnosed and i can get a book and pass them it saying ''read this, this is your grandson''

 

i am so upset, what do you all do??

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Totally understand where you're coming from. This is something I've struggled with, but rather than do nothing, I had to learn to do something even if I doubted it would have the desired effect. For what it's worth, I found my son when he was younger, didn't seem to get it when punished (it didn't make a blind bit of difference). Whatever R was into at the time ie obsessed with watching Thunderbirds, for example, if he did wrong, he'd get warned twice (so as there was no misunderstanding) that if he continued his DVD would be taken away for the day. He'd inevitably try saying 'sorry', but only because he wanted his DVD back and not because he was genuinely sorry – and so he had to learn that didn't work. Have to say, he'd kick off big-time, but it did eventually register. Things did get worse before it got better and the old R becomes, the more he knows I mean business if he tries to push buttons.

 

I've attended various challenging behaviour type programmes and in each one, been advised by psychologists that removing a toy for example, should only be for one day and not for whole week. If kiddos thinks he's losing his favourite possession, then there's a danger he'll think 'what the heck, might as well be horrible for the rest of the week'. Also, setting achievable targets and for good behaviour allowing them the chance to earn things (that could also mean allowing the opportunity to earn back the item confiscated).

 

It's really hard particularly when you don't intially have any faith that what you're doing is right (ie you think kiddo isn't getting it), but the older he gets, he will get it. Someone said to me that children need to feel contained. I must admit, at the time, I didn't get it! However, as time has went on, I agree with that completely – R has learnt that his negative actions have negative consequences for him and no amount of creating a performance will change it.

 

Caroline.

[baddad]

hi mum 232010 -

 

I think it boils down to one very simple consideration; if you have a child who has problems understanding social rules and expectations how can not telling him/her off help him/her understand them? If you think of another skill, say reading or counting, would not teaching them to read or not teaching them to count help them achieve that milestone? So not teaching them how to behave, not having an expectation for them to behave, can't possible help them achieve good behaviour - it can only confuse them more.

My own opinion is that if a child lacks understanding in any area you have to actually work harder on that key skill, and to simplify it even further. Rather than adding lots more variables into the equation you keep it very, very black and white, and you make sure that the 'blacks and whites' are completely consistant and predictable so there can be no confusion.

I think in most cases autism does complicate things, because conceptual understanding can be more difficult for autistic children, but it doesn't complicate the basic learning curve that needs to be negotiated- just the timescales involved.

For most kids, it starts at two - 'the terrible twos'. That is when a child starts to develop theory of mind and starts trying to manipulate, control and generally 'test' boundaries. At this point parents should start providing children with a moral compass and a set of behavioural expectations that the children intitally learn by rote but which eventually are consolidated into wider social and conceptual understanding. At the begining, the child doesn't have to understand why they are being told 'no' about a certain piece of behaviour - they only have to know that not responding to 'no' will have undesirable consequences. Similarly, they don't have to know why other types of behaviour are viewed favourably - they only have to know that enacting those behaviours has desirable consequences.

Without that foundation, wider understanding will never be achievable - the terrible twos will evolve into the twice-as-terrible threes, the Frikking awful fours, the frightening fives, the socially unacceptable sixes and seven's, evil eights, nastier nines, ten-times worse, tens and etc etc etc...

 

As cmuir says - children need to feel contained. It reassures them. However much we might feel we want to treat them like adults, and negotiate with them etc they do not - because they are only children - have the capacity to do that. If you think about it, most adults struggle to negotiate their tempers, negative impulses, etc etc, and can only do so because they have the associated learning to see those behaviours in a wider context. Children don't, and generally autistic children don't to a larger degree than non autistic children. So autism isn't a reason for lowering expectations, it's actually a reason for enforcing them more rigidly, because the children have 'additional needs' in that area of learning.

 

Picking up on another point:

 

sorry its a long one, but i just cant wait for the day he is diagnosed and i can get a book and pass them it saying ''read this, this is your grandson''

 

Autism doesn't explain or justify negative behaviours and 'bad' behaviour isn't part of the autistic spectrum. To use a dx in that way is probably going to do your son more harm than good, and to use the diagnosis as a 'stick' to beat your family with is probably going to have negative implications on his and your own wider family/social dynamic. If you create an 'alternative reality' for your son where negative behaviours are accepted and accommodated (whether on he basis of autism or any other factor) he will only be able to function within that alternative reality. The rest of the world will be a closed shop to him.

 

Hope that's helpful.

 

 

 

L&P

 

BD

[justine1]

I agree with Baddads post.Also to add,I disciplined Sam before his diagnosis so I continued after his diagnosis.Knowing more about AS has enabled me to discipline more effectivley,especially with visual aids helping him understand what he has done wrong.

 

Sam never responded well to time out before but he now "gets" that when he sent to his room it is a punnishment.I think removing something he likes or not allowing him to watch something has worked very well for me,may not work for your son though.I would perservere though and you need to take more time explaining why what he did was wrong.Also by removing something I make sure he is not going to occupy himself with something equally enjoyable.So for example if he is in his room everything is removed from his room,he can have books to read and that is that,if the other toys remain there then he can just play happily and forget about what happened.With the telly watching I would also make sure none of the other kids switch on the telly cause then he still gets to watch it so again the punnishment is not enforced.Sam usually gets two days for violence,my eldest is nine and he gets a week no computer for serious behaviour the reason being he is older and should know better also a few days is not enough as I have tried and then the behaviour returns quickly but after a week the behaviour is at bay for longer.Its different for all children.

 

My nearly 2 year old has started throwing tantrums and out of all four of my boys he is the first child who has responded well to the naughty step.Its all about trying different techniques but give each one a time to work period.So maybe "removing something for a day" technique will be enforce for two mths ,after that try another if its not working and so on.Have him know before the behaviour arises that that is what the punnishment will be.Remind him every morning "today we going to have a good day,if not you wont have your telly time."I think reward systems work well for me as well,Baddad suggested using a jar and putting marbles for every good day he has at the end of the week see how many he has and he can get a treat if he has more marbles,we get water pistols colouring things etc from our 99p store,Sam gets to go in and chose.

 

Recently we were counting his marbles and he had two missing,for the occasions he wasnt so good,he looked deep in thought and then said "I remember,I shouted at the teacher at school so that was one marble,and I didnt stay in the park that is another marble."I was so very pleased because it was the first time he acknowledged his wrong doing and understood the consequences.

[KarenT]

Remember also that discipline isn't just about punishment and sanctions. It also involves proactive planning to encourage appropriate behaviour in the first place. Reward and consequence systems are excellent and will work for most children whether on the spectrum or not, you just have to find the right motivator to help the child engage (and be prepared that motivators will change frequently). It's useful to have a Plan B up your sleeve for those times when he suddenly refuses to cooperate with something that's been attractive to him for ages

 

We spent several years battling with the 'can he help it or can he not' conundrum but in the end we realised that it wasn't his understanding that was the problem but general social appropriateness. If the world won't tolerate a behaviour then somehow we have to find ways to modify it so that the child can have a place in society. Bad behaviour, naughtiness inappropriateness - whatever people choose to call it has to be acknowledged, disciplined if necessary and attempts made to correct it wherever possible but as others have said it can take years of trial and error approaches to find a method that produces results. Unfortunately you just have to keep at it.

 

Karen

x

[baddad]

Recently we were counting his marbles and he had two missing,for the occasions he wasnt so good,he looked deep in thought and then said "I remember,I shouted at the teacher at school so that was one marble,and I didnt stay in the park that is another marble."I was so very pleased because it was the first time he acknowledged his wrong doing and understood the consequences.

 

Sorry - a bit Off Topic but i just wanted to jump in to say 'well done' to Sam for that bit of lateral thinking/perspective

Sort of bringing it back 'on topic' though, it is the sanction that's 'taught' the expectation and helped him to make the connection. Now he has a 'concept' to play with, think about and build on - a major milestone for any kid.

 

L&P

 

BD

 

[chris54]

Just like to add that the word discipline means having a set of rule to work to. It does not mean punishment.