Desperately need advice

[KathyM]

We are in the slow process of trying to get help for our 13 year old son. We have been told not to expect a "diagnosis" as there is "no need as long as his problems are dealt with", but this all seems to have changed today.

 

After the first good week in months, our son has allegedly "assaulted" a boy in school, and the school involved the police as they were already on site, but not formally. The story I was told by the school is that the other boy has been picking on one of our son's friends for a long time, and the friend has got Dan to "assault" him. This rings true as Dan is forever in trouble for doing what these other boys tell him to do - he seems completely incapable of thinking before he acts in these cases. While I strongly believe Dan should be held responsible for his actions to the degree he can be held responsible, I am at the end of my tether with the school not keeping Dan safe, and they have that duty of care in loco parentis not just for him but for the boy he hurt. These "friends" of Dan's have repeatedly got him to do things for them, he is their scapegoat all the time and the school do nothing at all to prevent it - they get their "man" by punishing Dan but take the other kids' words against his regardless of the evidence. Dan has repeatedly been punished for things that were other people's faults if we look at it from his point of view. He gets ridiculed by a teacher in front of all his friends for not being able to draw a 3D shape, called the teacher a rude name (one any sane person would agree describes the teacher and his actions perfectly), the year head agrees it's the teacher's fault but Dan has to go and apologise - what is that teaching him? People are unfair and regardless of fault you will take the blame. So why bother following the rules if noone else has to?

 

He has come home just now, very upset about what he's done and why, and has broken down about all his friends using him because he finds it hard to prejudge his actions when they say if he is their friend he should do x, y and z. He said the boy was pushing smaller kids into a bin, and he told him to stop. His friend said that he would beat him up but "he's not allowed near him because he got the police on him" (what a nice friend you have, Dan). Apparently at this point Dan's friend and the boy had a slanging match and his friend suggested Dan sorted him out. Dan says he "didn't think" and yet thinks he was right to stop him bullying smaller children. I have grave concerns about what happens next. We have repeatedly worked with the school to keep him in, he has no history of violence and it is not in his nature. He has been showing signs of depression at home, he is not sleeping and he is not eating well (usually a gannet). We are going to the doctors now, Dan refuses to join us, he is shaken and upset and hidden in his room.

 

The school say that they can't keep an eye on him in break and lunch and that it's not their job to. They say Dan has proven he's capable of explaining why his actions are wrong, and therefore is making conscious decisions to "be a bad boy". Dan has told me that he just repeats what they say and finds it hard to think of it from someone else's view. Dan has opened up a bit tonight in anger and said that he is sick of people "taking the mick" out of him and he's sick of school not helping him when he finds it hard to cope.

 

School have said he can't be left "unpunished" despite the local CAMHS telling them that he mustn't be dealt with through the BSU or expulsion. CAMHS feel that the way to deal with Dan's issues is to sit and talk through them. So we have the two opposite poles. I don't have a clue what to do, I know when we come down on him hard it hits his self esteem (which is very low and he has to have help with) and he becomes more withdrawn, disaffected and problematic. I know that when we're "soft" his sister and brother can't understand and the school think we're not taking it seriously. We are taking it seriously. I just don't know what I'm meant to do - I ask CAMHS and they say be soft, I ask school and they say I should deal with him hard and frighten him more.

 

I have asked Education Bradford what to do and they have said that he can only be kept out of school by a doctor's note. If we want to home school (I don't but I don't see any option) we have to give the school notice and he has to go back in the meantime. I am worried about his mental health and safety at school. Dan doesn't want to come out of school but is beginning to see how these "friends" are not his friends at all and this is upsetting him a lot - given another day he will be back to thinking they're God and doing what they say. School repeatedly say "If only he had a diagnosis we wouldn't have to treat him like a bad boy" and it's their excuse for failing him every time - "If only he had a diagnosis we could get him X, Y and Z", etc etc. CAMHS say it's bad for Dan to be diagnosed with anything, and that the SENCO emailing Dan's teachers saying he has "autistic tendencies" is enough - instead they suggest Dan is smoking pot (apparently that takes away your appetite and gives you insomnia!!) or that he must miss the biological father he can't remember - in fact they took him to one side last night to question him alone about his biological father which is nothing to do with any of this. How am I going to get him ready for real life? Noone will help us. My extended family want to pretend there's nothing wrong and that it's "normal" for boys to be this way and that I'm worrying over nothing. I am getting everything wrong and I don't know what to do any more.

[baddad]

Hi kathy -

can I ask firstly, if the assualt had been the other way around - i.e. the other child assaulting Dan - would you be using the adjective 'allegedly'? If the boy was hurt, and Dan admits he did it, and has also stated that he did this knowingly acting on a direct request from a friend then there wouldn't seem to be any 'allegedly' about it(?).

 

If being told not to assault other children and being punished for it hurts his self esteem, then I guess that's something he'll have to live with, because if he assaults other people he will be negatively judged and punished for it. Not sure what you mean by 'coming down hard' on him means, but I think coming down fairly hard would certainly seem appropriate, especially if he has problems understanding behavioural 'greys' anyway, which appears to be the defence you're offering for him.

 

You've described abusive behaviour towards a teacher, which was the teachers fault, and an assault on another pupil, which was a mix of the other pupils and dan's 'friends' faults. What part of this, if any, do you think Dan should take responsibility and 'ownership' of? He's repeatedly, in fact, punished for things that are other people's fault. Is there anything Dan does which is his fault, and if so how do you punish or support and allow the school to punish him? he seems to be highly aware regarding, i.e. 'people taking the mick' and is even fully aware that his fairweather friends are 'using him'. TBH, I can't see how you/he can acknowledge that level of social awareness and understanding and not see the contradiction when he says he can't help/doesn't undertand the implications of his behaviours.

 

If he is aware his friends are 'using him' why is he volunteering to be used/ and if that is going to be labelled as 'poor self-esteem' then it is another absolute reason for making sanctions and behavioural management a priority so he can overcome the negative judgments his 'friends' attract for him and establish some new behaviours that will attract the right responses from more appropriate role models.

CAMHS are saying 'talk it through' but are they also saying don't sanction? I don't think a sanction without talking it through will gain you very much ground, and I don't think talking it through without a sanction will either. If that is what CAMHS are saying, well personally I think they're talking out of their hats.

 

I wouldn't go so far as agreeing with your extended family in saying it's 'normal' for boys to behave this way, but I would say there's more than enough boys that do behave this way to show that it's not abnormal, nor something exclusive to autistic children. And autism does not excuse aggression in the real world anyway.

 

When you say he's 'depressed and not eating' is this ongoing, or do you mean the incident and potential consequences have upset him? If the latter, I think that's perfectly reasonable. If the former, yoiu may need to address that, but do bear in mind that mood swings (in both directions) are perfectly normal behaviour for kids his age too, and he'll have all that hormonal 'junk' to contend with in his system etc for at least the next several years

 

I think (though I can predict I'll be in the minority here), that you need to look at this from both sides of the coin - you need to send the very clear message that this kind of behaviour isn't acceptable and sanction in a way that is really meaningful for him and you need to support the school in sanctioning these kinds of behaviours too, but you also need to be offering the reassurance, advice and support to enable him to make better choices. If you make the latter imperatives a 'cop out' from taking responsibnility and ownership for his behaviours you will, undoubtedly, see an escalation in the behaviours, but if you sanction without the other stuff you will just make him resentful and even more confused. So 'come down hard', but compensate for that by offering him real options and opportunities to make the right choices next time. And if his friends are using him, rather than him using his friends using him as a justification, then get 'em off hire, 'cos with friends like that he doesn't need enemies.

 

L&P

 

BD

[KathyM]

Just an update to this....

 

I have spoken to the EP tonight who agrees with much of what I've said of Dan rehearsing what is expected of him and not answering genuinely - he's seen it before and he saw through Dan. He says Dan is "quirky" in the way he talks and his mannerisms as well as his fidgeting, which he thinks could be signs of stress. He also believes that Dan is vulnerable to peer pressure. He was also concerned about a problem schoolwide in that they over-focus on punishment as a response to any issue - according to him it's a recurring problem with them. He will be making some suggestions to help in school, including keeping him inside and supervised at break and lunchtime, which is the least we should expect under the circumstances. I have also been to the GP tonight who agrees that the school are not addressing the problem responsibly or consistently and that and Dan's current state of mind are enough to warrant keeping him off school for a few days and she will back that up. That way we get to make an appointment with the school to discuss a more appropriate answer to his needs and to his reparation without having to put him straight back in unsupervised and unsafe, and it also gives the EP a chance to get in touch about safety measures for Dan. The GP also warned me not to overreact to this incident and said all boys fight, as one of four girls I wouldn't know personally, but it's not something we accept as an excuse here. She did however say that exclusion would be a good thing for him as it would give him more time off to reduce his stress levels. I kindof agree with that although I'd rather he just apologised to the boy and the boy apologised to the little children he hurt (which would be hard enough on them both) and got on with school, it's a shame they don't see that as a suitable option.

[SSS]

KathyM,

 

It sounds to me your son needs your help and support right now (and I believe that is what you are doing),

the last thing you should be worrying about right now is sanctioning him HE needs to know you are there for him (and it sounds like you are),

You should let him know that violence is not the answer but you have to tell him that when HE is ready for that talk.

 

You should try and steer him away from those so called friends.

 

I do not know what is meant by “come down hard” on him,

but under no circumstances should that be physical punishment.

 

Our extended family have always been in denial about our son’s needs,

so I would not worry about that.

 

 

SSS.

[Lucie1979]

Hi,

 

I don't think I agree with the school not supervising him during breaks and lunch!!! "Not their job" ... ??????

 

Surely if its within school hours and on school property it IS their concern?!!!

 

Hope you can get something sorted.

 

Sending a

 

Lucie x

[Cat]

Sometimes keeping our children safe means that we need to protect them from themselves. Secondary school can be very difficult for children with autism, especially those who need friends.

 

The situation that you have outlined in your post could have been written by a close friend of mine who is living a similar nightmare to yourself. However despite the school keeping this child in at break and lunchtime the situation has really escalated and is now almost at crisis point with the next move for my friend's son being placed in an EBD school where he will be mixing with even more challenging children than he is now.

 

I am very hard on my own teenage son and we make it perfectly clear to him that autism or not he is not outside of the law and that acts of physical aggression will simply not be tolerated. We are fortunate that our son is rarely aggressive these days (physically aggressive) although he often has verbal outbursts that I put down to his hormones. We have intervened and ended friendships that we felt were not in the best interest of our son - as I said I believe that sometimes our children need protecting from themselves.

 

The school do not appear to be handling this well and despite being told that a diagnosis is not necessary were I you I would need something by way of an explanation if nothing else and a diagnosis should be a passport to better provision and support. Even though the school could do better I would be making sure that I made no excuses at all for abusive behaviour and I actually agree with Baddad

 

you need to send the very clear message that this kind of behaviour isn't acceptable and sanction in a way that is really meaningful for him and you need to support the school in sanctioning these kinds of behaviours too, but you also need to be offering the reassurance, advice and support to enable him to make better choices.

 

I have seen what is happening to my friend who I think is now afraid to stand up to her son and that is never a good place to be with an adolescent who has autism.

 

Cat

[Sally44]

I sympathise with your situation. You've got a teenage lad who is not getting any support or help to learn the life skills and social communication/relationship skills he must have to survive in the real world.

I don't want to dwell on the assault/fight with the other child. But what I do want to say is "were your childs actions a result of the same level of social understanding as the other kids?" No it wasn't.

 

But so far he isn't diagnosed, and he doesn't have a Statement and no-one is helping to improve his skills.

 

The professionals that can assess and work on these areas are the Speech and Language Therapist, the Educational Psychologist and Clinical Psychology and CAHMS.

 

Even if he does not have a diagnosis you can still ask the local authority to assess him for a Statement of special educational needs. They may well refuse - but you can appeal that. If you look in the Code of Practice it lists the areas of SEN and language and social communication are an SEN. So are emotional problems - but rather than focusing on "bad behaviour" you would be looking for an emotional literacy programme to teach him to recognise emotions in himself and in others. And it would need to be put together and overseen by a suitable professional.

 

But you could start by speaking with SALT/EP about these incidents and how he is being used by 'friends' to do all kinds of stuff that he later realises was wrong or that he was used etc.

 

Try to get him involved in something out of school with more structure. Would he enjoy something like Scouts?

 

The problem is that if this is not addressed and your child starts to disengage, you could end up with him refusing school just at the time he should be sitting exams. That is very typical.

 

So start phoning and then put your concerns in writing eg "further to our telephone conversation I told you x, y and z and you said you could 1, 2 and 3." In this way you begin to get written evidence of what his needs/difficulties are and that you have approached professionals and asked for their help. You should also speak with the SENCO and ask them to get professional advice. Schools have budgets for SEN for this very reason (so much EP time per term). They have delegated funding for this very reason (around 15 hours per pupil). It is also very important that a speech therapist assesses him. Ask school if they can refer. You want a SALT experienced in ASD and speech disorders and you want all professionals to carry out standardised assessments so that they give a baseline age related result eg. expressive speech 12 years, receptive speech 5.7 years etc. And you MUST ask SALT to assess his social communication and interaction skills, otherwise they don't assess this area.

 

Get advice from organisations such as IPSEA.org or Network81.org or the National Autistic Society.

 

A Statement is the ONLY legal SEN document. Even with a Statement it is not plain sailing! But without it you often get very little.

 

Also phone the LA and ask for the telephone number of the parent partnership, who can give you advice and come with you to any meetings in school. School could and should already have him on School Action Plus for these SENs, so ask the PP for their advice on that.

 

Also ask the LA for the telephone number of the autism advisory/outreach teacher and speak to them to see if they can come into school and observe him and speak with you.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Sally44

[BethK]

I'm sorry if this has been answered but I'm lacking caffine and not concentrating

 

Firstly, I am sorry to hear that your son is having a bad experience in school, Senior school at that age isn't easy for a kid without ASD, let alone a kid with ASD! Does his school have an attached SEN officer/tutor? Also, what his 'friends' (i use the term losely) are getting him to do, is actually classed as bullying, so that needs to be nipped in the butt very quickly.

 

How severe are his learning disabilities? If a SEN officer is refusing to statement him, you know you can start the process off by yourself, might be worth giving the NAS a call for further advice on this route. Do you have an ASSIST team in your area? If so, please do give them a call too for advice, never know, they maybe able to help you.

 

By your post, he seems to understand his actions AFTER they have occured but not before? His school HAS a duty of care and if they know your son has some sort of learning disability and that he is unable to conceive the concept of what people tell him, they DO need to keep an eye on him. I would personally make a formal complaint to the school board if this is a common thing that happens i.e. they aren't keeping an eye on him.

 

I do not have experience with teenage kids, as my son is very young compared to yours but the violent outbursts, I do understand how it feels to be at the end of them. Keep fighting his and your corner, please don't give up!

 

Are there are ASD organisations/charities in your area, that could help with advice?

[Suze]

Its excellent school will supervise breaks and lunch..this is what I would have suggested you ask for.Also regardless of any dx its sooo so important that your son learns the valuable lesson of not using violence or aggression, he should have found an adult/teacher and told them of this other boys bullying not have got involved himself.This group of boys he is hanging around with sound like a bad infuence, if it were me I,d be discouraging any friendships...it,ll only get worse as they get older and want more independence.I agree with Sally going to scouts or air cadets (my sons saviour) might help.These places have adult supervision and strict rules.Also I know how it feels to have a son who is depressed and not eating, its hard and he will need your love and reassurance but also your guidance in making good choices and walking away from the bad, best wishes suzexx

[JGardner]

a) Teaching Support Service for Pupils with an ASD. Greenfield School, Boothroyd Drive, Idle. Bradford. BD10 8LU. Tel: 01274 614092. E-mail: office@greenfield.ngfl.ac.uk

Bradford and District Autistic Support Group (BADASG) 18 Campus Rd., Listerhills Science and Commerce Park, Bradford. BD7 1HR. Tel: 01274 738196/626464. E-mail: info@badasg.co.uk Website: www.badasg.co.uk

c) Airedale and Wharfedale Autism Resource (AWARE). Tel: 019243 609103 Website: www.homestead.com/awareUK

d) National Autistic Society. 393 City Rd., London EC1Y 1NG

Tel: 0171 903 3555. E-mail: nas@nas.org.uk Website: www.nas.org.uk

 

 

Don't know if these are any use to you, I'm in scotland have a son who is in a similar situation, but the school are great and treat him as if he has A.s.D and pushed for a diagnosis for us and with us and that will happen in May, but my son is worse violent in the same situations but can't seems to learn to not keep repeating his mistakes and we are strict. I can't get him to learn the consequences. If after diagnosis we can't get him somewhere specialised for .A.S.D and there are a few places around I will be reluctantly home educating him, my son is depressed about it too and is scared to go back, they gave us a month off but now want him to go in on Monday, not sure if he will or not, I digress. why is it up to cahms why can't they refer him for an assessment so he can get more help, we saw them here and they told us they would have done that that if it was not already ongoing.

[KathyM]

Thanks for the replies, I'd like to have a go at addressing them in order.

 

SSS - thanks ever so much for your post. To give you a picture of us, we aren't soft touch parents in any way, and we hold good behaviour, good manners and effort in school paramount with all our children. In this situation I see a great deal of need for reparation but not for punishment/retribution which is what the school want - I don't believe that without reparation and rehabilitation it works or is a responsible response. Obviously I would never, ever use physical punishment on anyone, let alone a child. It would be utterly cowardly and hypocritical and never teaches a child anything other than not to trust their parents.

 

Lucie - thanks for your reply, I completely agree. It's utter rubbish that they can't keep him in, they have done it before when he was being bullied.

 

Cat - thanks for your post. I feel I should stress that this incident is massively out of character - Dan is not a violent child, he is usually the bullied, not the aggressor, he has never used violence in school before, not once. Given the school have taught him that their staff are above the rules and reporting injustice gets HIM into trouble while the real problems are ignored, then it is not surprising that this has happened (although it was a terrible shock to me).

 

 

Sally44 - your post is an amazing help, thank you. I had no idea SALT could help in these cases, thanks. I fully agree that if he isn't taught ways to deal with his problems then he can't be expected to live up to the same standards. Unfortunately the school feel that without a concrete diagnosis their hands are tied to treat Dan as "just a bad boy" (their words). I am not belittling what he has done, far from it, but it was not the result of forethought and certainly was at least partly the result of repeated perceived "injustice" from the school staff and these children that are alternating between manipulating him and bullying him. He still needs to make reparation I feel, but I wish instead of focusing on retribution on Dan that they would see this for what it is - a horrible display of what goes wrong when school repeatedly let a child down. They say he could've gone to them about the bully - why would he? Each time we have gone together and reported things, they have done nothing. Repeatedly they admit their unprofessional behaviour in front of Dan and myself and yet take no action to repair the damage or "punish" staff while telling Dan that he can make everything better by him taking the blame and apologising. What is that teaching him? *I* understand the answer is simply that life is unfair and some people are horrible (and I know he needs to learn this), but they are not consistent or professional in their approach - they can't hold him to standards they don't even attempt to achieve themselves.

 

BethK - thanks for your reply too. Again, Dan doesn't have a history of violent outbursts, although of course we are taking this singular incident very seriously. I have been unclear in what I meant about Dan's answers to how others must feel. The school say he is capable of knowing in advance that what he's done wrong was wrong, because when questioned he can say how others might have felt when asked after the fact. However, I feel this often is a rehearsed response, I have sat in a couple of times and if not prompted he can manage an "I dunno". He tells me he "doesn't think" before these incidents and that he feels that when questioned by teachers after, he has to have the "right answer" so they won't be angry at him any more. This is something the EP saw through. It is very hard to get him to open up beyond the "I dunno" and to get further, teachers have to say "Don't you think X would feel bad if you did Y?" to which he says yes, and they then go further and further. This has over time and repeated incidents become more rehearsed and he remembers what the "right answer" is. The school claim this as evidence that he uses forethought and chooses to specifically break the rules (indeed the way they're presenting him as a personality now, it's as if they think he is planning these incidents to get himself into trouble - they have got super defensive to the point of the ridiculous.

 

Suze - we have our wires crossed, the school refuse to supervise Dan within break and lunchtime. They say it is not their responsibility nor are they capable of doing so, which is untrue as they have done it before. As for it being important that Dan is told that violence is not the answer, that's the first and most basic response from any parent and that goes without saying. Just because I don't agree he needs to be "punished harshly" doesn't mean that we accept this behaviour.

 

Dan went to the local scouts for a few months, he found the regime comforting at first but frustrating eventually when they did the same thing at every meeting (putting up a tent) and didn't progress in any way (that's more a local issue than a Scouts-wide one). I wouldn't put him in an army, air or sea cadets situation because I think he would crumple with the bully-boy mentality. I also don't agree with teaching children to use guns as happens locally. We have tried repeatedly to find him a D of E placement locally but the local base was his school and they "don't think they do it any more". CAMHS suggested that they get him in a disabled kids Saturday morning workshop for much younger kids (?!). Mind you they have him down as "globally developmentally delayed" despite him being very intelligent and achieving normally academically (so would be high achiever with the proper help) and have already told us to prepare him for the "fact" that some people aren't capable of learning and will need a practical and not academic profession. They said that in front of him too! What was even funnier was them suggesting catering as a career - that's one of the most bullying environments for young boys to go into!

 

I'm wandering now. Thanks everyone for your replies, I've missed some bits I'm sure but it's Mother's Day and the Ferrero Rocher are calling.

[KathyM]

This group of boys he is hanging around with sound like a bad infuence, if it were me I,d be discouraging any friendships...it,ll only get worse as they get older and want more independence.

 

I want to address this bit before I go, sorry about that. I do not encourage him hanging with these kids, I have their names and he doesn't play with them outside of school at all (he doesn't play with anyone outside of school which is half the problem I'm sure, but that's the way he is). It is only in school he sees them. It's also important to point out that they're not all boys and indeed one of the ringleaders is a girl two years older than him. In this incident it was two of the boys, but in previous incidents she has been very much part of the problem.

 

Also while I am here, does anyone have any ideas over how to regain control over Facebook? I do not encourage use of it but in this day and age everything accesses it and I am told by them that because he set it up over the age of 13, I am not allowed access to it or to close the account. I know how to change his password to gain access as long as he doesn't cotton on how I do it and remove my access to his MSN address that he left set up on the computer here. If I lose access to his email I cannot check on his account, and at this time the EP and CAMHS say I must have access or even better remove it and I can't do the latter, I have asked Facebook and they refused. Thanks in advance.

[Suze]

Sorry I thought I,d read that the school would support him at break and dinner..(must have been another thread )......is it not possible that given what has happened they will now support him at these times?...that would be something I would push for with them.Would he himself prefer to be away from this group or does he see them as his "friends"..that can very often be the sticking point in these scenario,s the fact that he needs to understand and recognise that this group don,t have his welfare or best interests at heart.It can be a very difficult thing for ASD kids to grasp and learn.I only say this as my son is now nearly 16 and we have been through similar siyuations ourselves, my point about hanging around with this group out of school was purely one of caution as quite quickly he will become older and more independent and if this group is still around he could become under their influence more and more.

.........also the point about air cadets.......theres no bully boy tactics at my sons squadron infact they have a very good record for kids with SEN he is currently on his silver D of E and has various certificates for canoeing and first aid.They are taught to shoot but its not compulsory as is taught as a discipline by trained individuals.Don,t give up trying to find a good youth organisation theres also fire cadets, st,johns ambulance etc, anyways best of luck suzex

[KathyM]

Thanks Suze, I will reconsider those options then, thanks! The school said on Friday (after the incident) that they "can't just keep him inside for you every break and lunch" even though they have done this previously when he was unsafe. He does see them as his friends although on Friday I had a glimpse of some pain he's feeling over his mate's involvement in the situation. He said he was "fed up with people treating me like a muggins".

 

I don't know whether anyone can help me get another subject in turmoil outside and decided on? When these problems rear their ugly head I am torn between wanting to take him out of school before things get worse and with keeping him in school and working with them. I always choose the latter, feeling I have a duty to ensure that he gets "socialisation" (sounds like a puppy lol) and when I discussed things with Education Bradford they said he would have to go back to school to come out of school as they need a letter of notice (meaning I can't avoid sending him back). They also said he will not be entitled to any support with his learning at home and that I should hold out for school to statement him. Others say there's no chance of him getting a statement even with a diagnosis, and school say even with a statement they won't supervise him as statements only cover the hours of lesson time.

 

Actually that's two issues isn't it? Sorry, they're sort of intertwined. I want him to be in school but I also want him to be safe and happy and thriving. Given that he has an understanding family and I've already had to give up chance of a life outside this issue at the moment, would it be more responsible to home educate? I worry that if I do home educate he will never learn how to cope with the horrible people we all have to cope with (and there's no "ignore" function in a job, sadly!).

Edited April 3, 2011 by KathyM

[Suze]

I s there anyway he could be allowed access to the learning support area at break and dinner.Most high schools have this area accessable at these times for kids with SEN and those wanting a quieter environment.This was a god send for my son as he actively did,nt want to go to the canteen or hang about in noisy groups or crowds.It also kept him away from kids you picked on him(he got called names "retard") alot).These areas are usually chaperoned by a teacher.If this is something that might work for him have a word with the senco.

...in the long term I.d try to stick school out if you can, things can get better, my son has been through some bad periods but currently is doing very well and looking forward to leaving and going to agricultural college in sept...something we thought impossible a few yrs back.(at one point ...the school ...thought he needed a reduced timetable cos he could,nt cope)...best wishes suzexx

[KathyM]

Thanks Suze. I've spoken to his year head this morning and thankfully things were calm today (I really thought I'd blown it on Friday but their opening statement was "Your son's with the police making a statement" so that's understandable).

 

He goes back on Wednesday, I told her the EP had said that he must be supervised and she reiterated that it's not possible. She said that she can advise him to go to "Oasis" (which sounds similar to what you describe) but that she can't make him go and if she did she'd have the problem of enforcing it if he wouldn't (she's already talking about him like he doesn't want to do better). I have talked to Dan about it and told him that I feel he MUST go to Oasis break and dinner and that he can't say he won't (not that we've ever had that problem before). He doesn't seem peturbed by it, but relieved.

 

Apparently after further investigation, the boy involved is also going to "be punished" for his part in what happened on Friday. I am not sure how I feel about this to be honest, but I suppose that's for his parents to worry about, not me.

 

I want to keep Dan in school, whether it's this particular school will depend on how they respond to his needs from now on. I want to push for a statement now, school say it won't make any difference but with two local schools having special status for ASD then having one would be very useful if we can't keep him where he is. I hope this incident has not only been a toe up the backside to Dan himself to stop giving the "right" answers and to allow himself to feel the betrayal of his friends and learn from it (I hate seeing him hurting but I hate seeing his friends treat him like the village idiot too), but also to show school that what little they've been doing in reaction to my constant prodding is nowhere near enough.

[bid]

Just a quickie with regard to Facebook. My girls were only allowed an FB account provided I was a 'friend'. This means I see what's going on with their wall, and we chat and post to each other too. They also have adult cousins and an uncle as friends too.

 

I wonder if it's possible for you to become one of his 'friends'...then at least you can monitor things and step in if needed.

 

Are you able to go back to CAMHS to pursue a dx? I think there may occasionally be problems surrounding a private dx, but in a situation like this, perhaps you could investigate the possibility of going private with a recognised specilaist who also does NHS referrals so you know the dx will be rigourous?

 

Very best.

 

Bid

Edited April 4, 2011 by bid

[KathyM]

Hi Bid

 

Thanks for your reply. I am a FB friend on Dan's list, it's not control over his public comments that I was querying, it's overall ability to cancel his account. The problems are occurring in private messaging and chat. Because he is over the age of 13 I am not allowed (by Facebook) to delete his account.

 

CAMHS have rung today and said that they have asked the EP to do a BAS test on him but until then his case is on hold/closed. The doctor apparently believes there is no need to take things further at the moment (not that I've got to speak to him EVER, all our contact has been through one primary mental health worker), and CAMHS are suggesting Friday is normal teenage boy behaviour. I have given up with them, they've acted completely blasee throughout this whole process and aren't interested in bringing more attention to the fact that they've never properly assessed him. They have no intention of doing so either. I have got to the point where it's clear we have noone who has Dan's best interests at heart other than us, and I give up. I have wanted to keep him in school to get him a proper assessment but noone cares about doing that but me. Everyone else just wants to write him off. CAMHS would be happy if we just went away and stopped trying for Dan to have anything that he deserves. They have written off a very intelligent boy as "globally developmentally delayed" (which is completely untrue) and told us to get him a job in a kitchen when he comes out of school as "some kids aren't academic", and not to expect him to move out. As if that's all we care about or that's all he's capable of, they have no backing at all for that view other than their inability to help us.

[KathyM]

We are going back up today for our meeting with the school. The "inclusion officer" and the SENCO are coming too. I am going to focus on a few things in particular:

 

1. Reparation vs retribution, I want them to clarify what they mean by "punishment" when they won't accept Dan's offers of reparation. I want to ask them how they think it will help anyone involved in the situation.

 

2. I want copies of his IEPs, I haven't had one nor been consulted on one since he started secondary. I have asked a couple of times for them and people have palmed me off a bit and I was under the impression it didn't work the same way as primary school - I should've pushed more for this. I understand their heavy workload and will be sympathetic and polite about it, but I think this needs reviewing urgently.

 

3. Safety in school. I am not happy with the lack of supervision at school. I am aware that it is against the rules for children in his year to leave the school grounds. We have distinctly told him he mustn't leave school grounds. He does when his friends tell him to (including the time when they told him to climb the building in the building site). I have since been told by Dan that his year head said he is allowed to go to the shop at break and lunch despite the rules - she said in confidence that she was happy for him to as long as he only went to the shop. I feel this is irresponsible of her, I fully understand why she might have said that but we at home know he is not capable of assessing risk properly and this has to stop. This ties in with the previous conversations about keeping him safe within break and lunch. When Dan was told by me he had to go to "Oasis" he went. This could be built on I think. If they're not capable of keeping Dan safe within school time we have to consider making a complaint to the LEA and finding him a school that can, or consider home schooling (which to me is a last resort).

 

Does anyone know of any legal requirements of the school to keep Dan safe within school time? How about his rights to inclusion? I don't feel that going in and slamming legal jargon in their face would be productive but I do want to be aware of his rights and what I am right and wrong to expect from the school (and vice versa of course).

[lsw146]

Hi just wanted to share your frustrations about CAMHS. We had the same sort of issues. DD was gifted with a markedly uneven profile of development and aspergers traits. None of that made anyone listen or help and her obvious differences became more and more apparent. We just kept getting discharged and rereferred until 10 years on they did a more in depth assessment and diagnosed Aspergers! Keep fighting for what you believe in. Our CAMHS thought a label was a bad thing but in the 5 weeks since diagnosis my DD has been more accepting of herself and our input. If course it doesn't make any if it go away but it does make finding the right tools a little easier.

I can understand your frustrations over punishment when things seem beyond your DS's control and it has taken us a long time to find sanctions that were effective so I hope you can find something which will reinforce positive behaviour and discourage anything else ( hope that doesn't read as glib or judgemental sometimes what I write isn't quite what I would say in conversation)

Take care

[KathyM]

Thanks ever so much, I'm sorry you've had similar issues. I feel at the minute that I have had to give up everything just to deal with this - I can't go into uni (where I was doing the final year of my degree) because I get two or three phonecalls a day about what we have to do to stop him getting into trouble. He is only ever in trouble at school, he is not a difficult child at home. Today I am told that his friend invited him to join him in an adult stranger's (stranger to him and us) house at lunch and he has been there, and been encouraged to smoke (and God knows what else!). The school rang me after he got back, knowing he was out of school all lunch as he had to walk past a teacher to get off site?! What is the point of them ringing me after the fact, this is a vulnerable child they've been told is particularly vulnerable to peer pressure and must be supervised.

 

Can anyone help me determine what his rights are regarding lunchtime supervision and/or new schools? Locally there is only one we fall under the catchment of and it is far "rougher" than the one he's at. There are other schools we can get him to but we don't know if they will take him if we're not in the catchment? I know one way to get him into better schools is to get a statement and then two schools locally have specialist autism status (I forget the term they use). I rang one and spoke to the lady in charge of that and she urged us to do this. I am waiting to speak to the SENCO again about this.

 

Should I be homeschooling at this point? I feel it's got to that point. I wanted to be able to finish my degree but I clearly am never going to get that chance while he's there so I might as well give it up for a good reason instead of this constant pestering by them to sort him out while he's their responsibility.

[Suze]

Kathy..thats awful ... .....that he can leave the school premises and go to a house and where an adult he does,nt know gives him the oppurtunity to smoke.If this does,nt show the school he is vulnerable and needs supervision lords knows what will.I,m wishing you tons of luck and keep on encouraging him to use Oasis at breaks and dinner, all the best suzex

[KathyM]

Thanks ever so much, it's really frustrating. He stayed in school today for a partial restoration of his rights at home (lol - we have rules for a reason and if school aren't going to do anything, doesn't mean I'm not). Education Bradford said they would ring back yesterday or at latest today with an explanation of what school requirements are with regards to safety in non-lesson time, and they haven't. I don't really feel like I've got anyone on side now.

[Kathryn]

It's astounding that the school allows 13 year olds off the premises at lunchtime - this is surely negligent. My son is 13 (y9) at a mainstream comprehensive and will not be allowed off the premises at lunchtime until he is in y11 and even then I think parents have to give their explicit consent via a permission slip at the beginning of the year. If pupils misbehave this privilege can be withdrawn.

 

Regarding responsibilities, schools have a legal duty of care to all pupils, that means that they must act as a normal parent would in keeping a child safe. Ask to see the school's health and safety policy, and behaviour and child protection policy which might tell you what they should be doing. Was the member of staff acting within the school's own guidance in allowing him off site - surely there are explicit rules about this which apply to all pupils? The fact that he's been off site and smoking at the home of an adult he doesn't know, could be a child protection issue, you could make a formal complaint to the school and have a word with the LA safeguarding team.

 

Re statementing: the process can still continue if your child is out of school i.e. being home educated, although it's easier if he is in school as it keeps the pressure on the LA.

 

What the school are telling you is nonsense: a statement can and should detail all the support a child needs. This includes support at break and lunchtimes and this specific requirement can be written into the statement.

 

Statementss aren't easy to get, but they're even less easy if the process doesn't start! You can make a request yourself for a statutory assessment, and appeal if the LA refuses to assss your son, or won't statement him after an assessment. If you get the process moving that may make the school and LA start looking more seriously at his needs.

 

K x

Edited April 12, 2011 by Kathryn

[Sally44]

I've only scooted through all the other posts, so excuse me if I've missed something and repeat things.

 

Your original post said:-

 

"We are in the slow process of trying to get help for our 13 year old son. We have been told not to expect a "diagnosis" as there is "no need as long as his problems are dealt with", but this all seems to have changed today."

 

That in itself is one of the reasons YOU NEED A DIAGNOSIS AND A STATEMENT. He needs it because he is on the spectrum (assuming that is the case), and because of that HE WILL HAVE difficulties typical with that diagnosis which include problems with speech and language and social communication.

 

You say the EP is going to carry out the British Ability Scales standardised assessment on him. This is good because it will give age related results for the areas she assesses (these are long assessments and most EPs do not do all of it). You could phone the EP and ask what she is going to assess. I don't know if the BAS has any sections relating to the understanding of speech or social interaction.

 

I would recommend that you also speak with the EP about the above incident. If he is on the spectrum he is VULNERABLE (I'm highlighting these words because professionals use them and recognise what they mean). He therefore NEEDS his speech and language AND SOCIAL COMMUNICATION SKILLS to be assessed by a SALT, again using Standardised Assessments such as ACE or CELF.

 

So see if the EP or School (whichever is sooner) will refer your son to the SALT.

 

You can either wait for those reports to be done, or you could put in a request to the LA for them to carry out a Statutory Assessment towards a Statement. As part of that request the LA will have to ask the EP (and make sure they know that you know he needs a SALT assessment too). Chase up an referal to the Paediatrician/Clinical Psychology to get the diagnosis as that will help.

 

You can get a private diagnosis, and private reports if you find you need to.

 

The LEA will then instruct the EP and SALT to produce a report and the LEA decides if they will issue a Statement. If they refuse you can appeal (and whilst this is all going on you are continuing to collect your evidence and reports etc).

 

If the LEA refuses to issue the Statement you will at least have up to date reports from the EP and SALT which should inform school better.

 

If the LEA agree to issue a Statement the whole process will take 26 weeks from start to finish.

 

The LEA should also have an Autism Advisory or Outreach Teacher. Ask the school to contact them, or you phone them yourself.

 

Remember that everything SHOULD start with the school, so remind them of their responsibilities to SEEK OUTSIDE PROFESSIONAL HELP. But you can start the Statementing process without anyone agreeing with you.

 

Your son is 13. By the time he gets a Statement that would be 26+ weeks (or longer if you need to appeal). By that time he may have disengaged from the educational system altogether as many children struggle more and more when in secondary school because they don't have the skills that the other children do and the gap between them and their peers widens.

 

There are lots of organisations you can use for help such as IPSEA.org, NAS.org, NETWORK81.org, ACE.org. etc.

The LEA will also have a Parent Partnership group which are there to help and support parents through this process. But also check their advice with IPSEA/NAS etc, because although the PP are supposed to be independent, they are employed by the LEA themselves.

 

Personally, I would seriously consider having a meeting in school with the PP present to talk about how his needs have not been fully identified and are not being met in school. It is ridiculous to be punishing him for his behaviour when they have no idea if he even has the social skills to have worked out a different, better outcome.

 

And regarding him being able to "tell" other teachers about these things. He may not be able to do that. They are assuming he would know why what he did was wrong (when he may not understand that), they are assuming he would be able to formulate the information correctly to give to a teacher so that they understood the issues. Again, they can't automatically say he could/should have done that when they have never assessed him.

 

My son has been physically injured and in pain and has been bullied and has never said anything to anyone. When I asked him about this he said "I don't know the words to say" (which he doesn't), "I don't know who to tell" (which he doesn't as we've also just found out he has prosopoagnosia). And his processing is very delayed, so even if he did work it out it could be days later. He has never told me, his mum, these things - never mind someone in school.

I've taken my son to the GPs with a swollen face only to find out he had a serious ear infection and must have had it for days and been in extreme pain. Yet he said nothing. And my son is also placed mainstream (but is currently at home due to school refusal and we are trying to sort out another placement).

Edited April 16, 2011 by Sally44