Rural school options

[Lyndalou]

I've been trying to make some decisions about options for my son's schooling next year.

 

After an interim meeting which I requested - a good meeting, I think with good honest discussion about my son's progress and what he can currently cope with - a decision was reached that next year I will make applications for both the special needs school and the local mainstream school i our catchment which has a special needs unit. The thought is that he will at start at special needs school next August (Primary 1) with the view to possibly over the course of the year have him going to the mainstream school for a few hours a week. His progress is to be reviewed over the course of this year to see how his speech and social skills improve.

 

I visited the mainstream school a few weeks ago to see what they offered. It is an open plan school and the special needs area (Primary 1-3) is sectioned off in the same way, except the partitions are higher. I did seem like this area was a lot 'quieter' or at least the noise from the rest of the Primary 1's and 2's was muffled and it felt 'safe'. It also had a 'reserved' outside play area and the ratio of pupils to teachers seemed good. However, I was very aware of just how busy the school is and when it came to break time it was pretty noisy and chaotic. I was unsure about the procedure at that time of looking into other schools and it has been explained to me that this school provides 'the best' special needs support in the area.

 

I got talking to another mum recently who is also a deputy head at a primary school in the city. We live in what is classed a rural area so I thought our options would be pretty limited. She told me that we could apply to any number of schools including very rural schools outwith our town. Although 'rural', our town and surrounding towns have been expanding hugely over the last few years and the infrastructure is struggling to cope with the influx of families. There is a new school in the planning stages which is also going to be open plan. Therefore, I have started looking at what other schools there are.

 

There is a primary which currently has (in total) only around 40 pupils for instance. It is a few miles away but the school has a Support for Learning teacher but no special needs provision per se. Just wondering what people think about the school size overall being a better option to lessen stress in the learning environment over special needs intervention in a very big school??

 

I've got a while to think about it but trying to 'think outside the box' a bit.

 

Lynda

Edited December 22, 2011 by Lyndalou

[justine1]

Hi

 

I have two boys with ASD in two different settings. My 5 yr old son Dan,has HFA he is in year 1 and attends a small catholic mainstream. The class sizes are smaller than the average mainstream and they have lots of additional "helpers" alongside the TA and teacher,many people who have attended the school or have kids their do volunteer and most attend the same church(although I no longer) so its like family. It only goes up to year 2 so when he goes to year 3 I need to see what to do,he does not have a statement.

 

My other son,Sam, age 8(year 4) has aspergers and never coped at mainstream even when he went to a village mainstream with just 10 kids in a class,the expertise was not there. He attends an ASD unit attached to a mainstream. His mainstream class actually has more kids than Dan's school but he is not in the class all the time and has learnt coping strategies from the staff. The teachers in the mainstream class are not as qualified as those from the unit however they are used to dealing with children on the spectrum and use the same techniques used by the unit staff. He does so well at his unit but it took me 6months to find the right one. I had been told to send him to one closer to home but I hated the school and I am glad I turned it down.

 

 

I think it depends on your child and how you feel he would cope in the environment,also how much additional input he would need. For example Sam is lucky enough to have SALT twice a week at his unit, but Dan who actually struggles more with his speech does not get this at mainstream. I always say go with your gut feeling.

[Lynden]

It's difficult to say and you know your child best. Whilst we lived up north, L went to a SEN nursery attached to a mainstream primary and whilst it was fine and suited him then, I can see now that he wouldn't have made half the progress that he has done in his current special needs school.

 

I'd agree with Justine in that I think it's more about the expertise of the staff, than the size of the school. Even in a bigger school, if the staff have knowledge of autism then they should be able to manage break times for your little one.

 

Lynne

[Sally44]

I know it is hard to come to decisions, because you are trying to peer into the future to see if your child will cope with something they have not even experienced yet.

 

The important issues are:-

Expertise and qualifications of SEN staff.

Access to therapies [this should/must be specified in the Statement].

The learning environment.

The flexibility they can provide.

 

[flexibility is important because our children do present differently sometimes day to day or even hour to hour. In a mainstream school he is going to have to fit in. And there maybe little opportunities for flexibility eg. if your child gets overwhelmed or upset, what will the mainstream school do? In a special school you would expect them to have the higher staffing level and also a special environment that a child could go to to calm down. Both schools may SAY they can provide the same level of support, but they can't, otherwise the mainstream school would be called a special school too.]

 

Then look at your son. How does he cope in noisy environments, or with very distracting environments.

Is he an anxious child?

Does he socialise with reasonable success?

Is he Aspergers and at the same level of his peers, or are his needs also educational?

 

My son is not Aspergers, but is relatively HFA. He was too capable for the peer group in an autism unit, but did not cope or learn in a mainstream setting. He became highly anxious, and the continued high level of stress and anxiety made him ill, and now he has OCD type behaviour, self harm, school refusal.

 

The child has to be in a calm, alert state to even access learning.

But the quality of the SEN provision is also necessary to access learning.

 

You probably feel that nothing is adequate, or meets all his needs [which is actually a requirement of the SEN Code of Practice ie. that all needs are identified and that all needs are met].

 

So you may find yourself trying something for primary, and then having to go to an SEN Tribunal for the secondary placement [because you are simply more likely to win a secondary Tribunal Hearing than a Primary one IF the main object of the Tribunal is to get a placement at an ASD specific secondary school which is independent and which has therapies on site.

 

Your child will get the provision that is in the Statement.

 

What are your child's feelings about school. Do they enjoy it, or is it a struggle to get them in every day.

 

My son is now very anxious, and at his new placement they have a place within the classroom [a tent], the child can go to, they have desks at the back of the classroom they can use to take time out from the participation in the lesson whilst modelling or similar, but still be able to "listen" to what is being taught. They can be removed from the classroom for a walk, or to go to another room for some time out or to play quietly, they have almost immediate access to an Occupational Therapy room which is fully equipped and staffed by occupational therapists. So they can act immediately to contain his anxiety, so that he copes and returns back to the classroom asap. At his other school he had to remain in class, would become ill, would be sent home for 48 hours etc.

 

What will happen if your son does not cope in the mainstream primary school, have they guaranteed in writing that he could immediately take up a full time slot in the special needs school?

Edited December 23, 2011 by Sally44

[Lyndalou]

Thanks Justine and Lynne

 

What I'm mostly considering (I suppose) is still a split placement option. What came up at the meeting was that it was felt that in terms of academic ability, my son is on a par with the average and above average in some areas. The general consensus was that currently his understanding is below average and he is believed to be able to only pick up on 2 key words within a sentence (I personally think that there are times when he understands much more but I'm willing to go along with the SALT's evaluation meantime). It was also agreed that he has a number of sensory issues and that he can have considerable difficulty with having people close to him, especially when he can't get way from them. I think that this is why he copes reasonably well at his mainstream playgroup because it is quite a big room and lots of area to move about and keep a distance. Even though noise can be problematic, if he gets space he can cope better all round. I've always had the problem with him going into more 'enclosed' spaces so I wonder if claustrophobia may come into the equation too?

 

So, this is where I have the big question mark about him going into the SEN unit at the mainstream school. The space is quite small - if all the kids attended that day it might be quite claustropobic. The school is growing all the time and the local authority is cutting the jobs of playground monitors so he onus falls completely on the teachers to ensure control. Stru would walk out of his unit and into (potentially) a large amount of children coming the opposite direction and I was very aware of the echoes and bangs bouncing about myself so wonder how he would cope with all of that. This is when he start to sweat and panic and starts to screech and cry.... I would hope Lynne that break times would be 'managed' like you say but I'm also very aware that I want him to have the oportunity to be around mainstream kids if he was in a mainstream school but I'm just not sure if it would be the main stressor for him.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Lyndalou

[Lyndalou]

Thanks Sally - just seen post.

 

I'll write when I have the opportunity again...

[Lyndalou]

Hi Sally

 

Like you touched on, I think the main problem for me is that in the words of the headteacher of the special needs school where my son attends nursery, my son is an 'inbetweenie'. I am reassured to be told that if he were to remain at the special needs school for primary level that he would follow the same curriculum as in mainstream but at the same time I worry that he will lose touch with his mainstream peers.

 

As it currently stands, when he attends mainstream playgroup he has the opportunity to learn to socialise and although it's not perfect by any means, his stress is manageable and he looks forward to going there as he does nursery. I don't think the fact it is a split placement is causing too much trouble with regard to routine. He goes the same set days to both placements and if anything, he gets upset that he is not going on the weekend to either place. It is clear that the playgroup staff try their very best with him and attempt to keep how they do things consistent with what we do at home at at nursery. However, they don't have training or expertise in working with children with ASD so they can be a bit hesitant with him and try to make sure that he doesn't become upset in any way. At nursery, I know they are much more equipped to be able to support him if he does become upset and understand his stressors more.

 

Today I have been even more put off the SEN unit at the mainstream primary. I know someone (whom I haven't seen in a while) who's son started there in August. It was clear that things are not going brilliantly but she was trying to put a brave face on it. She said that he goes into the mainstream class from the SEN at times during the week and that the teacher said he was 'just the same as all the other children', that he understood the instruction he was given (although he has had recent tests and his understanding is well below his age) and that everything was going great. Three days later she said she was telephoned to discuss how far behind he was falling in class. There were other things she told me in addition that ring a lot of alarm bells.

 

I know that my son is currently copying a lot of behaviours that are inappropriate but he is also learning a lot of appropriate behaviours. My hope would be that in whatever setting he is in that the teaching and other staff would encourage the appropriate behaviours and be able to cope with the inappropriate ones. He's still very young and as you say, it's very difficult to know how fast or if his grasp of social expectations will come on. However, he responds very well to praise and to cuddles and is generally quite good natured. Some of his main difficulties are definitely noise and not knowing how to respond appropriately. 'Mess' and certain kinds of touch also figure highly among his problems. In both his special needs and mainstream placements he has always been happy to approach an 'chat' to the staff and is trying very hard to interact with the other children.

 

I suppose I have thought that if he were to go to a small school, say one day a week, then routine-wise he would know he goes there one day a week, he would get to know the staff and they would get to know his needs (perhaps with some specialist assistance), there would be low levels of noise and distraction and the high child/adult ratio would ensure that even at breaktimes it might be easier to manage how he interact with other children and how they interact with him. I know it perhaps wouldn't be ideal but it would ensure he maintains contact with mainstream kids and the rest of the week he would have the specialist intervention.

 

There doesn't appear to be any autism-specific units anywhere around where we live so I think any decision I reach would have to be a 'compromise' solution. The other larger school in the town which has a more 'Victorian' layout has a special need unit too but half is apportioned to Learning Difficulties and the other to Language Disorders. Neither of those would (I believe) suit my son's needs. I have still to look at the other towns within driving distance properly but one does not have any SEN needs provision at all from what I can see.

 

Many thanks

 

Lynda

[Sally44]

You need to have a very clear picture about what will actually be provided and whether that meets your expectations.

 

I was told that my son would have speech and language therapy, TA support and the Autism Advisory Teacher visiting school and giving training to staff. It sounded great.

 

In reality the SALT went into school once a term [which is usual], and sometimes not even that. She sometimes telephoned the TA to see if he had met his targets - when the TA is not qualified to make that decision. The TA support was the TA that is in the class - so not actual 'extra' support than any other child in the mainstream class.

 

The Autism Advisory Teacher had a caseload of over 150+ children. That worked out that she had around 1 day per year to spend on seeing my son and training staff. That level of input was laughable and if I had known that that was what was going to be delivered, then I never would have agreed to mainstream in the first place.

 

Speech and language, Social skills, interaction, social communication, emotional literacy are all areas our children have to have difficulties with to get a diagnosis.

 

And if our children could 'learn' just by being with other 'mainstream' kids, then they would just pick it up, like other kids do, from the family, school, community etc. ASD children do not learn like that. That is why they need things to be explicitly taught. And it needs someone qualified and experienced to do it.

 

Regarding mainstream peers. They tend to fall away in time. The gap widens. Our kids are different. Other kids ignore them, don't include them and often pick on them or bully them. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

It would have been lovely to have kept my son with his sister, in the local school, with the neighbourhood kids [who were actually all very good with him]. But over the years I noticed the gap widening.

 

Other neighbourhood kids are out on the streets, playing football, riding bikes, going to the shops. My son can't do any of that and therefore is not "included" in an "inclusive" environment.

 

Just because there is nowhere suitable, does not mean you have to settle for what is out there. Get a copy of the SEN Code of Practice. It clearly states that every need has to be identified and that provision has to be quantified and specified to meet each and every need.

 

It maybe that now is not the time to take things further. But IF he has significant sensory needs he should have a diagnosis for that and that need would then have to be met by Educational Law.

 

Educational Law trumps local authority or school criteria or funding. If it is in the Statement the LA has to pay for it.

 

NO NHS OT provides a sensory integration programme. The NHS don't fund it. But if it is specified as a need in the Statement it has to be provided. And you can find plenty of independent ASD specific schools [mainly secondary], that have OTs and SALTs on site and they teach average/above average children on the spectrum. At that kind of school he would get all his needs met as per Educational Law. So just be aware that that is an avenue you may want to go down in future years.

 

In the meantime I hope the dual placement works. But get everything in writing, and if he does not have a Statement you should start the ball rolling.

 

If the SALT is saying he has significant language difficulties ie. understanding just a couple of words in a sentence, then she needs to carry out standardised assessments to determine which skills sets are affected. AND that also means he does not fit the profile for Aspergers - which means he is more likely to struggle in school.

[Sally44]

Sorry.

 

I've only just noticed you're in aberdeenshire - which means most of what I have posted is irrelevent regarding educational law.

 

But still consider the differences between the placements for the reasons I've described.

[Lynden]

I think the difficulty is the lack of provision in the area - it's been 5 years since we moved, and I never looked at what was actually available in Aberdeen itself but our choices were really limited when we lived there and I don't think any of them would have suited L perfectly either. Where exactly are you Lynda - I think I asked you that before but I can't remember. I do have friends with autistic kids back home at different schools in the area.

 

Lynne x

[Lyndalou]

We're in Inverurie, Lynne. Kids come from all over the place to go to Stru's nursery, from the outskirts of Aberdeen right up to New Deer etc although further north I believe they get the option of Peterhead. Kintore has grown so much I think I have to rule it out because I've just been told they have 6 primary one classes in one Primary School though I'll have to confirm that!

 

Lynda x

[Kazzen161]

You woudl need to check how a split placement would work in practice. eg: most mainstreams do a topic in English or Maths that covers a week or two. If he is mising some of the lessons, it will make it hard for him to understand the next bit of work as he will have missed some of the teaching. We find this even with NT children who are off for a few days. It coudl be that he will do all English and Maths at the mainstream (eg: 5 mornings) and art/PE etc at the special school (or vice versa) or it may be that he will be getting bits of each subject at each school.

 

If he is split between two schools he may end up not making friends at either (as he is not at either often enough).

[Lynden]

Yeah, AR in Peterhead was one of our options. He went to the SEN unit in Banff, but I think he would have ended up in Westfields or AR had we stayed there as his learning difficulties were quite severe at that time (prob classed moderate now). 6 Primary 1's seems massive! That's bigger than the schools we have here in London! The majority of mainstream round us here have three classes. The one my daughter is in initially only had 2 which is why I sent her there as our village school at home only had 80 kids in the whole school let alone her having to deal with 80 kids in P1 and she is NT lol!

 

Lynne x

[Lyndalou]

Kazzen, thanks for the point you raised - I never considered that but of course it's quite fundamental. Lynne, I've started reading through all the primary school websites, going out further and further from where we live. One school I hadn't even considered is classed as a 'village' school and is quite close at hand. The Ed Psych is approachable (when she's reachable?!) and I think she would give me a truthful unbiased opinion about the realities of what some of these schools can offer. I have no idea what level my son's learning difficulties would be classed as taking in all the factors so maybe that's something I need to clarify I've heard good things about AR in Peterhead but that is a considerable distance away as is Banff (although nice for a day trip). Kintore has grown so considerably that by all accounts the new school they built to accomodate the influx of children was too small before they even finished building it. I would imagine that they must be planning a new one...surely?

 

Sally, again thank you for what you have written. As always, it gives me a lot to ponder. What I never considered before either was getting a sensory evaluation. I think my son has 'fluctuating' difficulties with many things. He can tolerate certain noises for instance, if not under pressure although I think certain noises are problematic a lot of the time. I'm not sure how that can be assessed? Touch is an issue that figures highly a lot of the time though along with his perception of what 'mess' is. A while back at nursery/playgroup he couldn't stand getting paint on his hands but now he actually quite enjoys this activity. However, if he gets water on his hands unexpectedly, he also calls this 'mess' and it has to be dealt with promptly! I'm not sure about any visual sensitivites apart from him being afraid or made upset by certain images (I know not really the same thing) - one from babyhood is 'Teletubbies' and he still runs screaming from the room when he sees them, even a still image on a DVD cover!! I think this actually could be some kind of phobia?

 

Lots to think about x

[Sally44]

Sensory issues are a major issue with my son - but they are not always obvious, unless the child reacts disruptively to sensory issues. My son simply cannot function in a typical mainstream classroom. He cannot concentrate, listen, complete work etc. At his previous school he kept trying to get into the corridor to do his work there.

And sensory issues do fluctuate, that is the whole point. For us our response to stimuli is similar, or practically the same. But if you imagine how stressed you might feel trying to concentrate on writing an essay in the middle of a nightclub with the noise and lights and people etc.

Sometimes my son simply cannot multi function to the extent that, if he were walking, he would have to stop walking to reply to a question.

He is easily distracted, and his new OT has now asked me to have his hearing checked again - just to rule it out, because she said that during the Christmas party, in a room with just 5 other children, he had to turn up the TV volume extremely high to even be able to hear it. This is also an indication of his auditory processing disorder [which is similar, but different to sensory processing disorder].

And sensory issues include motor planning and co-ordination, sequencing thought and movement, organisation etc. So you definately need to get it checked.

The different in his new school is immediately obvious. He has learnt the names of people within weeks, where previously he was not learning names even after years of it being a target on his IEPs. So for my son, less is definately more.

[Lyndalou]

Just spent an hour writing a post and then it didn't save so this will be short!

 

I'm glad to hear how much of a difference your son's new school has made to his ability to concentrate and it must be such a relief to see him more settled and happy.

 

My son's hearing is described as 'acute' and his ability to mimic is quite uncanny and his musical ability is obvious. He is intrigued by echoes, rythmical noises, lorries backing up, seatbelt alarms etc etc but he is easily distracted by them too. However, when he is focused or concentrating on writing on his letters or watching a DVD he often doesn't 'hear' unless the TV is turned off or I say his name repeatedly. Conversely, he can be made very upset by loud or high pitched sudden noises and by many voices speaking at once (loud chatter or droning). I know both of those things could be examples of auditory and sensory processing difficulties.

 

I spoke to the HV today who agreed that the local mainstream school, with it's open plan layout could be disorienting and loud, even for adults! She told me that she's heard no bad reports about the small school I've been looking at and I think that's at least a good starting point for further discussion.

 

Lynda

[Kathryn]

It's a difficult one - I think in the end , after getting as much information as you can about each of the options, you have to go with your gut feeling.

 

Let us know what happens

 

K x

[Sally44]

Agree with Kathryn. That's the best you can do.

 

 

We tried local mainstream, then more specialist mainstream and now Specialist ASD specific Independent. But I know why I made the choice for each school and I know why they both failed and why we ended up where we are. So don't worry about making the wrong choice. If it is wrong you will be able to identify WHY, and that will be insightful and helpful to choosing a different school if needed.

[Lyndalou]

Thanks Kathryn and Sally

 

I've got some time to do my research and I think that gives me some time to talk to staff and visit the various schools in the area. The most recent report for the special school my son attends nursery was very good and I know there is a lot of dedicated staff with specialist knowledge there.

 

Yesterday, I was speaking to my teacher friend again and she was saying that with all the cutbacks and funding pressures, it is a very likely scenario that mainstream class sizes will rise again in the near future. I wasn't aware that the present cap is 25 per class in a primary setting but she said this will possibly rise to 28 (like it was before). She also said it is a distinct possibility that classroom assistants could be axed across the board. That sounds absolutely dreadful if it is what is in the offing! Her words were that this generation are set to be completely failed by the education system....horrifying...and very upsetting. I remember the effects the 'work to rule' had in the 80's! Anyway, it's something to bear in mind I also can't help thinking that it would be larger schools who would be much more affected than schools with smaller rolls.

 

Lynda

[RainbowsButterflies]

The 25 must be a Scottish thing - in England it's 30 per class in Foundation Stage and KS1 with no limit from KS2!

[Lyndalou]

The 25 must be a Scottish thing - in England it's 30 per class in Foundation Stage and KS1 with no limit from KS2!

I've just had a look at the legislation and it would appear that the 25 pupil cap applies to Primary 1 only. It only recently was written into law but is coming up against all sorts of problems already. When the SNP came into power in the Scottish parliament one of their manifesto pledges was that they would reduce class sizes to 18 pupils per class from Primary 1 - 3 (Legislation still places a limit of 30 on class sizes Primary 4 - 7). They've gone back on that pledge because there weren't the rooms and teachers to be able to follow through on it! I personally can't see how if a school requires there to be 30 places for older pupils how it works to have a 25 pupil cap in Primary 1!

[RainbowsButterflies]

A school I observed had 2 classes of 30 per year in FS and KS1 (up to age 7) and then moved to 2.5 classes per year in KS2 (so 2 x Y3, 1 x Y3/4, 2 x Y4, 2 x Y5, 1 x Y5/6, 2 x Y6) each with 36.

[Lyndalou]

36 kids per class just sounds like pure madness to me! How can kids learn anything and mores the point, how can the teacher even start to recognise which kids need more help and tailor work accordingly?

[Sally44]

I think that smaller, less noisey, less distractions is what you will be looking for.

 

As well as finding out what the teaching staff's qualifications are and what is provided "as standard" eg. in a nurture unit, or ASD Unit, it may specify that class sizes can be no larger than xx, which maybe half the size of a mainstream class.

 

Also look at the qualifications and pupil:staff ratio. In my experience the less able children in mainstream are often taught by teaching assistants that may have little educational training. In a more specialist placement your child will get more time with a qualified teacher.

 

Also ask each placement what their budget for speech therapy and educational psychologist is and also HOW that is allocated eg. shared between the children, or the school refers individual children on a "needs" basis. In my experience the "needs" led referals tended not to happen. Much better if there is a set amount of input eg. the speech therapist reviews ALL children once a term, rather than being involved on a "needs" basis.

[Lyndalou]

Hi Sally

 

I make the application for Primary at the end of the month. Seemingly, you just have to present yourself to whatever school you want your child to attend and fill in the relevant details 'onsite'. Had no idea that this is the way it is done until I phoned up the LA trying to verify dates applications had to be in by. So, I just have to turn up the special needs school and make the application (I already know that he has an automatic place) but I'll just have to turn up too to the mainstream school I have already discussed with the professionals involved in my son's education to cover my bases meantime.

 

I have heard through the 'jungle drums' that 15 staff are set to lose their jobs shortly at the special needs school - roughly 1 per class! God only knows how many staff will be going in mainstream schools locally if that's the case!!

 

I think it'll be wise to just keep my eyes and ears open for the next little while, see what happens and hope that someone gives me straight answers when I need them!

[Sally44]

The only thing I would add is that IF you go mainstream only, and he does not cope; the special school will be full. They won't keep a place open incase he needs it. The special school will be oversubscribed I imagine. Whereas the other way around, there is usually a place available in a mainstream school, unless it is the one that every parent is trying to get their child into.

 

I'm saying that because I was told by my EP to keep my son mainstream and IF he could not cope, she would recommend he moved to a special placement. When it became apparent that he was not coping, and I asked her to recommend he was moved, she said she could not do that because all the places were now taken. From that day I had no confidence in anything I was told.