ASD relating to Gender and Sexuality

[watergirl]

This may be a subject that will divide opinion, and I don't want to offend anyone, so I will try and word it carefully. I have been mulling this over for some time and wanted to get it right.

 

Long before I knew for sure that I was AS/ASD I was researching gender and sexuality for other purposes, and came across various references to AS/ASD in relation to gender.....mainly to do with the male brain and empathy etc and how there are fewer women diagnosed...........all the usual stuff that I expect most of us have read.

However, as part of my work in the NHS I was dealing with many gay women, and noticed a high number of AS/ASD traits. Now that could be interpreted as gay women having a lot of masculine traits if you believe in the stereotype lesbian. Knowing many gay women however, I know that this stereotype is exaggerated.........but my observations got me thinking about gender in relation to sexuality. If one accepts that, in a gay person, the part of the brain that deals with sexual attraction may be working in the same way as the subject's opposite sex, then it could be argued that the subject is neurologically intersexed......remember that biological sex, gender and sexuality are considered to be 3 separate areas......if they were not separate then in theory all gay people would want gender re-assignment.......which is obviously not the case. Now just hold that thought for a moment.

 

I recently came across a very interesting paper to which I have pasted a link below. It discusses the findings of a study into AS/ASD in relation to Gender Dysphoria, and early indications are that there is a much higher incedence of AS/ASD in Gender Dysphoric people. Now, bearing in mind that it is also becoming more widely accepted that Gender Dysphoria is a Neurological Intersex condition, added to my thoughts on gay/neurological intersex above, I'm wondering how this affects the statistics relating to the incedence of AS/ASD in gay women. I don't know if there has been a study relating specifically to this, but from my recent observations I think it would be interesting to know more. I have talked about it within the gay community and I don't think I'm alone in my observations.

 

I know some people may not agree with the theory re gay/neurological intersex, so apologies if I have offended anyone, but I think it is an interesting line of enquiry, and would love to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.

 

If you want to read the article on AS/ASD and Gender Dysphoria the link is:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2904453/

 

Sami.

[smileyK]

my auntie is lesbian ( has been married to a man previously man is her daughters dad) is very manly in her ways she did have 'lady partner' who she used to live with know her years she now lives on her own she likes /prefers own company etc she very good /clever at building /making things DIY like man would i think she had an ASD of some kind like me and her daughter but her daughter married with little girl so can understand the link /theory behind this matter interesting factor made but so is ED like anorexia V's AS etc ... list could be endless in common co-morbid conditions added on etc!

 

XKLX

[Sa Skimrande]

I personally believe the link is testosterone and testosterone that a fetus is exposed to in the womb as it appears that also influences the finger thing the relationship between first finger and ring finger is also thought to be governed by testosterone levels and where as regards to ASD, well, it's predominantly males that are diagnosed with ASD and it is that males thrive on the stuff, males need it, although females also produce it and need it, but in lesser quantities.

 

But, the post I put on this forum last week ; Brainsex Matters, there is also reference in that article to finger sizes and only today I found another reference for another condition of which I am looking more into. But the article I posted here I also posted on another aspie group elsewhere where a contributor came up with the following as regards finger sizes ;

 

......From what I have read, the length of the ring finger in relation the other fingers is an indicator of testosterone levels. The study I read found that in Lesbian couples, the more masculine of the two was more likely to have a longer ring finger in relation to the first finger, than is normally observed in non Lesbian women. in addition, these same women that presented the long ring finger were also found to have higher levels of testosterone. The study continued then then by testing aggressive and timid men and found that the more aggressive men had higher levels of testosterone and longer ring fingers relative to the first finger on the same hand. Male pattern baldness is also associated with high levels of testosterone and both traits seem to be genetic and passed through the family from the mother's side. Slightly elevated testosterone levels in the mother during pregnancy at specific times are also thought to determine or influence the gender of the child....

 

Now, from what I read today and at other points during this week on the subject of gender, many are now thinking the traditional binary isn't the truth of us at all, where I am also thinking perhaps the conditions necessary to create inter sex, homosexuality and indeed trans gender might be a situation in the womb where oestrogen and testosterone levels are near enough equal.

 

But I believe Baron-Cohen is onto it, for it was through his research that I discovered something I later came to be diagnosed with, which answered a life long question that had caused me much pain and anguish over the last twenty odd years since the question was raised through wondering what the hell I was, as a male, I am not a typical male and the truth of the matter has been revealed through the fact that I have an extra female sex chromosome, and as to sexuality, I am bi sexual and what with the mild Aspergers, I am in between everything, not completely one thing or the other, no wonder I am permanently confused. But the condition I have describes character typicalities very similar if not the same as Aspergers and so I believe ASD is linked to genetic variations and possibly homosexuality through testosterone one is exposed to when they are being created in the womb.

 

But everywhere I go in my personal research, I keep coming across references to the book Extreme Male Brain by Baron-Cohen, methinks I shall have to have a read of that book as I said, I believe Baron-Cohen is onto something.

 

But an interesting article I found today regarding the subject on inter sex and the condition I have, where I agree our education appears to have a religious bent and medical professionals need to wise up and listen to the people with these conditions instead of negating them with psycho babble trade talk as though they are the experts on something they haven't got, where in the linked article despite my genetic tendency to be non aggressive, I would like to attempt to re educate some of the linked writers, for they are patronising, insulting, abusive and just plain wrong with what they theorise, but hey they are the experts, us that have these things we don't know anything ;

 

http://oiiaustralia....elter-syndrome/

 

But with an overpopulated world, with major problems to come if we don't act, one thing we don't need much of is childbirth and so the third gender should be welcomed as it is, not modified to suit the religious binary

 

But according to the KSA if what I have was classed as inter sex, there would be routine screenings for such unhappy stuff as breast cancer, where there isn't currently and so males that get breast cancer usually die of it, the lack of concern by the medical establishment is that bad.

 

Oh and in finality of that other forum where aspies congregate a poll has been run and the vast majority of those aspies, male and female say they are homosexual, bi sexual, intersexual and asexual, the minority were people who claimed they stuck with the traditional binaries.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Sa Skimrande

[watergirl]

Wow Sa Skimrande,.......very interesting.........I haven't taken all that in yet, but I'm familiar with your general viewpoint............need to think about this a while.

[Special_talent123]

I am gay, I came put last year but however always felt like my brain is more of a male hence why I feel that my autism are more of a males than a girls. After taken that brain sex test it explains things to me clearer.

 

Why I am so technical with computers

 

The list could go on

[Mike_GX101]

At the moment it is incredibly difficult to know because the statistical data needed simply isn't there not least because many people on the spectrum have never had genetic testing. Maybe there is a link with the testosterone thing or indeed simply an imbalance of hormones within the body at crucial stages of development.

 

My Mum died of cancer when I was 3. But apparently that was a second tumour she died of and the first was present when I was being conceived and was successfully (as the tests apparently showed) treated during the pregnancy. I was born with Klinefelter's Syndrome and I have wondered whether there is a connection between cancer treatment during conception and my KS.

 

There are in fact groups of syndromes which seem particularly to favour males and perhaps there is a common link between all of them there somewhere.

[Mike_GX101]

But for anyone on the spectrum seeking advice regarding orientation I recommend having a read of the following article: here.

 

I discovered this article purely by accident having clicked on a wrong link on the Wrong Planet forum I am now also a member of. It makes some interesting reading and may even offer some comfort for those who identify with that orientation and who are also on the spectrum.

[watergirl]

Well, having done the reading and some thinking, it seems to confirm that the whole gender/sexuality spectrum is indeed very complex and has a high incidence of ASD. I suppose more research is being done all the time, so it will be interesting to see how it develops. I would write more, but been kept awake most of the night again so I'm tooooooo tired!!

[Sa Skimrande]

The other thing of course has to be considered is that we are now a more permissive society in that people are now free to self determine and this I see as the fact that the church has lost it's grip on us, bearing in mind religion is guilty of creating many myths that have divided and persecuted people through the centuries as well as influenced law making.

 

Now if it stands that ASD people tend not to fit in to societal expectation, it could be ASD people are more free to make what choices they do, and I say conscious choices because one can be naturally homosexual, but because of societal expectation, one does what society expects, gets married and even has children for this is very common.

[watergirl]

Yes, I have to agree with that......I daren't talk about religion, as I would upset people I think, but the fact that I haven't spelt it with a capital R probably says enough. I know soooo many people who have conformed to society's expectations re gender/orientation, which is sad, but things have changed an awful lot over the last few years........the internet has difinitely made a difference, as it was impossible to find out anything much 25 years ago.

[Sa Skimrande]

I understand the government figures for the numbers of LGBT in this country is 5 to 7.5 % of the population, perhaps it might also be interesting to understand what percentage of the population are ASD ?

 

But to perhaps help with your research a website I use a lot might be of some use as there are a hell of a lot of articles on there pertaining to LGBT from an interesting and somewhat enlightening perspective, but one can ignore the mumbo jumbo if one wishes and cut to the facts for they are there aplenty ;

 

http://galva108.org/whatis.html

[watergirl]

The official figures for gay/lesbian are 7%. of the population....I used to work in this field......but bear in mind that many folk are not out, so it may be higher....add to that the transgender community....which is also much higher than people realise in percentage terms....and then you really have a figure that is hard to ignore! I would love to know what the figures are for % of LGBT that are also ASD.....probably a lot higher than the average for NT folk. The figures I have seen for % of ASD in the general population is only 0.5%.............1 in 200.....whereas roughly of all population 1 in 14 are gay...........given the potential high incidence of LGBT in ASD.....which appears to be so.... then the incidence of ASD in the general population must surely be higher than 0.5%......out of 200 people 14 people would be gay, but only 1 person in 200 would have ASD............if that ASD person (out of the 200) happened to be gay that would still mean that only 1 in 14 gay people would have ASD.......and I suspect it is higher......I think we have a real arithmetical issue here!

Even if 2 in 14 gay ...conservative from my observations....are ASD then that is 1% of total population that are ASD!

I admit I have typed this with a glass of wine in my hand.......but re-reading it it still makes sense to me.....any comments?

[Sa Skimrande]

I know two transgendered, and they are both ASD , I also know a few bi sexual people who also say they are on the spectrum hence my suspicion only from those I know that this thing is lot bigger than is known and I say that because it seems there is sod all real research into the issues and so it gives the impression that the issue is not worth knowing about or is conveniently being swept under the carpet, because although consensus is not openly prejudiced due to political correctness, minds are not changed in reality and this I see through the understanding that the majority still believe the sole purpose of relationships is for baby making.

 

But figures never were my strong point.