triad of impairement

[missjaney]

hi, wondered if any1 had any information regarding the change from 'no imagination' to 'theory of mind' on the triad of impairement for ASDs/AS. a friend has been refused a diagnosis fo AS due to her son having an imagination....does the change to the triad mean she could go back and ask for a reassesment or a change to the diagnosis etc? sorry if that isnt very clear. best wishes and many thanks in advance, Janey

[Noetic]

Seems rather weird that she was refused diagnosis on those grounds, neither the DSM nor ICD demand such a thing as "lack of imagination".

 

And I have no idea what "changes of the triad" you are talking about

[helenl53]

Hi MissJaney

 

I have heard people tell about ill informed experts who say such things as: Can't have ASD for the following reasons:-

 

1. Makes Eye Contact

2. Looks Normal

3. Has an Imagination

4. Loves to cuddle

5. Doesn't like to cuddle

 

I am sure there will be the bods on the board who are going to come up with a hundred other reasons - all as valid as the above ones

 

Best wishes

 

HelenL

Edited November 16, 2005 by helenl53

[mossgrove]

Missjaney

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

As far as I know there have been no recent changes to the Diagnostic criteria for Autism/Aspergers.

 

The fallacy that a child cannot be autistic if it has imagination is nearly as old as the diagnosis Autism and is simply not true. The imgaination oftem works in a different way, but it is there.

 

Do you know who 'refused' the diagnosis? it doesn't sound like someone with significant knowledge of Autism.

 

Simon

[Elanor]

The imagination/creativity part of the triad has always seemed badly expressed to me - so I'm not surprised if there's a trend towards a more meaningful description of this aspect of autism. However, I've certainly not heard of there being any official change in the diagnotic driteria (either here or the US).

 

The deficit in imagination is much better described as a weakness in theory of mind - ie difficulty in understanding how someone else would perceive something. This part of the triad of difficulties also covers things like difficulty in predicting outcomes (and therefore taking comfort in routines and disliking spontaneous things).

 

I agree with HelenL that the idea that a child cannot have AS because he has imagination, is sheer nonsense, and the sort of rubbish said by professionals who don't know their stuff!

 

Elanor

[ceecee]

Just wanted to say.I have mild as andmy imagination is definately there.Too much so.I had an imaginary friend when i was younger always played imaginary games.I also was really good at writing stories etc.Always had them read out in class.I think you will find the problem is difficulting in imagining how someone else might be feeling.So to say that someone with as has no imagination is nonsense really.Many people with as can write fantastic poetry books etc.Hope this helps.

[Noetic]

Am I the only one who does to quite a strong degree lack imagination and gets frightened when people start talking about supernatural stuff/fantasising/others appear to experience [according to what they talk about] a loss or distortion of reality etc.? Scares the heck out of me.

 

I can be creative and I can enjoy fiction and occasionally spontaneously be imaginative, but this is one area that really rings true for me.

 

Some of my most creative work in school (art) consisted of an extremely literal 'tanslation' of a poem into an ink drawing (we had to choose from about six poems, and had to draw something based on that) and the other (a poem with accompanying collage) is just a patchwork of phrases and images from the book 1984 and the first CD I had ever bought and had become obsessed about.

 

Uncertain things like guessing (how many jellybeans in a jar, how far away is something etc.) sent me into a panic

Edited November 16, 2005 by Noetic

[alibaly]

When I think of the triad of impairments I visualise a triangle with each side of the triangle representing one of the impairments and each impairment/side having possible scores out of 10. So each autistic person has a triad of impairments but each autistic person can register different scores out of 10 for each of the impairments. My son may have 4 out of 10 for interaction, 3 out of 10 for communication and 9 out of 10 for imagination. Another child may have 7 out of 10 for interaction, 6 out of 10 for communication and 1 out of 10 for imagination.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited November 16, 2005 by alibaly

[Noetic]

I'd also like to say that I prefer the 'Tapestry' analogy (although I found Lisa Blakemoore's book a bit chaotic) than the 'Triad'.

 

here are a lot more aspects to Autism than the 'Triad'. Sensory differences alone have countless aspects and can vary enormously from none at all via thousands of different combinations in type and severity to very severe sensory issues in all possible areas. Then there's language (receptive & expressive), speech, motor skills, attention, need for routine (varies from not caring at all about what is done well/dawdling endlessly etc. to strict need for routine down to the minute), interests etc. etc.

 

The Triad just isn't big enough to even come close to describing Autism.

[Zemanski]

the thing with imagination is there are two broad types

 

the first is all that wonderful creative stuff - which some autistic people have far more than their fair share of

 

but the second is theory of mind - the ability to imagine what someone else feels or thinks and why, to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 

it is imagination but of a very different nature which is why it is now often expressed as theory of mind rather than imagination

 

Zemanski

[Flora]

My understanding of the triad of impairments is that something is impaired, not absent. I have recently heard/read somewhere (but I can't for the life of me remember where) something about impairment in imagination being replaced with theory of mind. If I remember where I'll post again on this thread.

 

Lauren

[Noetic]

it is imagination but of a very different nature which is why it is now often expressed as theory of mind rather than imagination

For me personally, it goes far beyond Theory of Mind. It's to do with unpredictability. What I can't see with my own eyes, what I haven't seen or experienced before in a practically identical fashion, I cannot imagine. Yes people are more unpredictable than other things, but it's by far not just what they're thinking that I can't imagine.

 

For me, it's also coming up with new things, examples etc. without being prompted. Gradually (as with learning language through echolalia) I learn to be more flexible by re-arranging chunks of different experiences (in a new area of learning/creativity) into new ideas (this is also how I do my job - I can work in any programming language within hours, but it takes months or years before I actually understand them and can use them flexibly).

 

But for a very long time, all I do is utilise large (and gradually smaller) chunks of borrowed ideas, roughly rearranging them to try and make something of my own.

 

And I agree with Lauren - it is not called IMPAIRMENT for nothing. Impairment does not mean absence. Impairment can go both ways. Too much (not being able to tell apart reality from fantasy) and too little (rigid mindset/difficulty in forming new ideas) are both impairments in the area of imagination.

Edited November 16, 2005 by Noetic

[baddad]

two quick observations:

 

Alibaly mentioned thinking about the triad as a sliding scale triangle...

One thing I heard at an NAS training session YEARS ago was to think of the triad as the graphic equalizer on your stereo. The sliders may all be near the top, all near the bottom, all hovering around the (NT) middle, or any combination of the three. About the most useful definition for newbies i've ever heard...

 

Zemanski mentioned theory of imagination/theory of mind... i'd agree for the most part that it's 'theory of mind' that causes autistic people the most problems(?), but think it's not so much a question of there being an inability to 'project' but an inability to do so at the appropriate time!! i think for many people with ASD's they do 'get it', but so many other things get in the way (social unease, butterfly brain syndrome, visual/verbal overload etc) that they only realise after the event that they've 'put their foot in it', and then the emotional response can actually be more overwhelming than the 'NT model' would predict...

Course i could be talking out of my hat as usual!

L&P

BD

[Noetic]

but think it's not so much a question of there being an inability to 'project' but an inability to do so at the appropriate time!! i think for many people with ASD's they do 'get it', but so many other things get in the way (social unease, butterfly brain syndrome, visual/verbal overload etc) that they only realise after the event that they've 'put their foot in it', and then the emotional response can actually be more overwhelming than the 'NT model' would predict...

Very much agree with this. Yes there are some who genuinely lack the ability (or willingness, i.e. don't see the point), even with hindsight, even when it is explicitly explained to them, to understand even the most basic aspects of ToM, but from my own experience, and from what I read of others' experiences, a lot of people tend to have the ability to work out what others are thinking or might be planning on doing, just not the ability to do so when actually in the situation where this knowledge is actually useful.

[littlenemo]

One thing I heard at an NAS training session YEARS ago was to think of the triad as the graphic equalizer on your stereo. The sliders may all be near the top, all near the bottom, all hovering around the (NT) middle, or any combination of the three. About the most useful definition for newbies i've ever heard...

Or you can think of it in terms of your computer monitor:

Using only Red, Blue and Green, it can make millions of different colours, right across the spectrum...

[ceecee]

I agree.i realise ijave put my foot in it consequently upsetting or hurting someone after the event, not at the time.It is something I don't mean to do and afterwoods i get really upset.

[helenl53]

My son was discussing something that had happened to him and his friend. I said to him. "that wasn't very nice of those boys to throw sticks at you and Edward. Waht did Edward think about it" my son replied "I don't have Edward's brain so I can't tell you and I wish you wouldn't ask"

 

I tried to explain to my husband about a ToM test that had been undertaken on my son. I forget that my old man also has AS. When I tried to explain that NT's would have given a different answer - he told me that the NT answer was not the right one - I tried to tell him that it was the right answer - but he then told me that I was the one with the problem and that the answer given by my son was so obvious and correct.

 

But just how do you get a teacher to understand this when they are merely given the child and the information that they have a Triad of Impairments!!

 

Best wishes

 

Helen