imagination???

[claire3005]

Hi All

 

Was just wondering if anyone can help, been having a really bad time with K over the last few months, he now refuses to leave the house and if i have to make him go he crys and keeps his eyes covered or his ears all the time.

 

Anyway i wa told by CAMHS that there was no chance he could have AS as he has very low intelligence (cognitive Asses)

 

So i asked them on the phone today if there was anyway possible he could be on the spectrum at all as i am convinced he is, what she said was she the doctor had ruled it out as he has imagination

i said no he hasnt all he does is reinact his films and computer games how can that be imagination so she said she would have a look at his file and discuss it later.

 

Do your kids have imaginations????

 

Are you not allowed one for a diagnosis?

[spectrummum]

hi hun

the diagnostic criteria says

that lack of theory of mind is in all children with a dx of ASD

One symptom of autism is a lack of "imaginative" play... though what is meant by "imagination" is a little odd. Autistic children do have imagination, indeed Asperger writes of children telling astounding stories about spaceships, and other such implausible things. What seems to be lacking is a projection of animate qualities onto toys (think Toy Story). In autistic children, imagination happens somewhere else (though with an odd exception: I've seen several cases sited where autistic children pretend that they themselves are something else, such as an animal).

 

 

One prominent theory is that autistic individuals lack a "Theory of Mind." This means that they are not able to understand the thoughts of others, or even that others have thoughts at all. It should be noted that despite the name, theory of mind is a cognitive ability, not a conscious theory. Another way that this has been phrased is that autistics have "mind-blindness," a loss of the normal human ability to "mind-read" (Baron-Cohen, 1995). Obviously, this idea of "mindreading" does not suggest that normal people have psychic powers, as the term "mindreading" would normally suggest. Instead, the idea of mindreading is the basic capacity to understand what other people are thinking and to then predict their actions from that understanding. This is essentially the same idea as theory of mind.

 

 

 

Inability to play using imagination with toys or people

2) tend to focus on a part of an object or person rather than the whole thing.

3)problems with empathy ,not feeling sad when others are upset or crying

4) repetative and stereotyped behaviours these can range from finger flicking to an intense attatchment to an object to a fascination of maps, timetables trains etc

5) children with autism are very rigid in their thinking and copeing with change can be very difficult they may have rules or routines they have to do no matter what.

 

 

hope this help

shell

[dooday24]

reece has a imagination if hes seen wat things do before hand like he plays with thomas t.t.engine but does wat hes seen in dvds

and his bob toys he does the same.

love donnaxxxxxxx

[claire3005]

Hi Donna

 

K does everything spectrumlady describes.

 

But also what you have just said about reece K does this all the time no matter what toys it is he is completely obssesed with spongebob and scooby doo reinacts his films and computer games all the time.

 

When he was younger thomas the tank engine was it for 9 months the whole track was built up around my living room and i couldnt remove it or he would scream even if a part of it got detached it had to be fixed straight away or all hell would break loose basically.

 

and thanx

 

Claire

Edited August 28, 2007 by claire3005

[wilson]

Hello,

 

Perhaps 'lack of flexibility of thought' more accurately describes ASD behaviour. H can make up stories, but they contain the same characters and have very similar plots. H will also play with his younger brother, but he tends to follow his brother's instruction. H lines up his toy cars and moves them off in sequence; his little brother plays garages, races, car salemen and crashes. As far as imagining the future goes, H worries a lot about imploding suns and wants to be a builder.

 

I am not sure about intelligence and AS. I always assumed that Asperger Syndrome could affect anyone irrespective of IQ.

[pearl]

JP never did the traditional imaginative games, but he certainly used his imagination.

 

eg: he slept in a tiny box room for years, & aged about 8 turned the doorway into the mouth of a T rex, put paper teeth all round so you were entering its head as you went in the room. Awesome.

 

Also, we spent months dodging the miniature cable car system he rigged up on our hall stairs & landing. Real danger of garrotting oneself on midnight trips to the toilet!

 

Loads more but those 2 do stick in my mind.

[mum22boys]

Hi,

 

I sympathise with you trying to convince the so called 'proffessionals' that you believe your son has AS.

 

Although we had a simular experience with CAMHS when m was finally assessed at the communication disorder clinic the consultant had no hesitations diagnosing him with ASD. It was so obvious.

 

I do agree though that the imagination part of the criteria is so confusing. When you are fighting to get an answer for your child this part of the criteria makes you think your child can have no imagination at all to recieve a diagnosis. M is 7 and I knew there was something wrong with his imagination , he can't even make up a basic story, it too would have to be based on something he had seen or heard. Yet his class teacher tried telling the ed psych that he had imagination and a previous teacher told me he played in the role play area appropriately. This was just not true. He was entering the role play area and not even so much as putting a hat on, he would just follow the other kids. He always lined up cars, cards or any toys even train track and still does. Nothing is played with in the correct way. When M was assessed I expected her to say 'he has limited imagination' because I thought to have or be told your child has no imagination at all he would have to be severly autistic. She in fact stated on his report that ' no imaginative play skills have developed'.

 

Now with my youngest son we thought as he was developing play skills. He sat a man in a car and drove the man round etc that he was developing ok. Now at the age of 4 we too are waiting assessment as the pead says he is not developing as a 4 year old should. He does have imagination although once he has thought of something he is very repetitive, playing the sequence over and over. so he can think up a story and act it out but we too are being told he could have autism.

 

It is so confusing. Not just for the parents but also the go betweens before you actually get to assessment.

 

Good Luck in getting your son the help he needs and deserves.

 

mum22boys <'>

[Bard]

B has a huge amount of imagination, he loves playmobil and is constantly acting out complicated storylines with numerous characters. He also enjoys fiction, either spy thrillers or historical.

What he can't do is manage to make up stuff with real children, so drama and shared writing is a real problem for him. He can't explain, negotiate and adapt to fit in with other people. He also avoids anything with too much elaborate discussion of emotions and complex feelings, but then few boys of 12 cope with that anyway, and many men struggle.

JP sounds so much like B! We've had the whole medieval warfare/siege thing going on for weeks, with catapults and siege towers, and playmobil warriors on huge cardboard castles.

We also had a complicated Father Christmas trap that lasted for a fortnight, up 'til Christmas day. He set it up early to catch any scouts sent out to case his bedroom!

To me, this just proves yet again how wide and unknown and mysterious the ASD spectrum is.

I defy anyone to read Mumble's 101 things to do with a ... threads and say that she doesn't have a vivid and diverse imagination.

[bid]

Perhaps 'lack of flexibility of thought' more accurately describes ASD behaviour.

 

As I understand, many professionals are starting to use this phrase instead of 'imagination' when talking about the triad. Makes much better sense!

 

I am very creative, but probably the main reason I didn't go to art college as expected was because I was scared that I would be 'found out' as most of what I do is derivative with almost no spontaneous, unique ideas, and my mind goes blank if I'm given a project or something.

 

Bid

Edited August 30, 2007 by bid

[Cariad]

What??? My son has ASD and will draw Dr Who with various monsters and have speech bubbles coming out of their mouths. Also other times he says he has a "video recorder" in his head and he watches things!

 

I think some ASD kids do have imagination most definatley!

[spectrummum]

they all have imagination

they just use it diffrantly

i used to imagine all sorts when i was young

and Donna Williams was always in a state of imagination

it is mainly said because autistic children find it hard to put themselves in other people's shoes to understand consequence of actions to know we have spepserate thoughts from them

[pearl]

B has a huge amount of imagination, he loves playmobil and is constantly acting out complicated storylines with numerous characters. He also enjoys fiction, either spy thrillers or historical.

What he can't do is manage to make up stuff with real children, so drama and shared writing is a real problem for him. He can't explain, negotiate and adapt to fit in with other people. He also avoids anything with too much elaborate discussion of emotions and complex feelings, but then few boys of 12 cope with that anyway, and many men struggle.

JP sounds so much like B! We've had the whole medieval warfare/siege thing going on for weeks, with catapults and siege towers, and playmobil warriors on huge cardboard castles.

We also had a complicated Father Christmas trap that lasted for a fortnight, up 'til Christmas day. He set it up early to catch any scouts sent out to case his bedroom!

To me, this just proves yet again how wide and unknown and mysterious the ASD spectrum is.

I defy anyone to read Mumble's 101 things to do with a ... threads and say that she doesn't have a vivid and diverse imagination.

 

Eggzackly Bard, you have hit the nail on the head I think. Shared imaginitive play is very difficult for our children. JP's Aspie aunt has won a national prize for a fantasy novel she has written. And the Brontes were pretty spectrumy weren't they?

[Lucas]

The diagnostic criteria does not mention theory of mind, which was a theory put forward by Baron-Cohen which has very strong evidence against it.

 

It also does not mention imagination; this is a myth. The criteria refers to atypical play activities and stereotypy. A common assumption made by those with old-fashioned leanings is that television, electronics, computers and games are bad for the imagination because they are inflexible systems. Autistics excell and tend to be really fascinated by inflexible systems, so it is assumed their imagination is lacking and that only pretending to interact with something that isn't there or reading fictional books are good for the imagination(excluding comics, strangely). Typically, such people don't know much about the materials which they think stunt imagination. You can't see electricity in a circuit like you can see water going through a straw, you have to imagine it to understand it's there. Quality television gets copied, but how do people come to the conclusion that because children pretend to be or write stories about Doctor Who that this means they lack imagination for not coming up with a character of their own? Would they say the same thing about children being Peter Pan or Matilda? Just played Mario Party on the Wii at a friend's house: had to pretend the controller was a baloon pump, balancing pole, fishing rod, steering wheel and sledgehammer. Not using imagination at all.

 

The moment a doctor says AS or Autism must be disconsidered on grounds of imagination, I'd run a million miles.

[LizK]

I think it was Lorna Wing who called the third part of the triad lack of imagination but it is now well recognised that imagination is only a part of that and it is more accurate to refer to it as lack of flexibility of thinking that encompasses routines, obsessions and so forth. if you look at the diagnostic criteria for this country ICD-10 or the in USA DSM IV (scroll down) you'll see that imagination only forms one aspect and a non-mandatory one. It is also referred to as impairment of imagination not absence of imagination two different things.

 

My son is nearly six with HFA. He has symbolic play in that he will make a pretend cup of tea or another activitiy that has been modelled to him or scaffolded upon a recent real life experience. For example he loves cooking and will do pretend cooking usually based on what we have done together or the latest episode of Big Cook Little Cook He will sometimes re-enact his favourite TV programme. What he can't do is have the same sort of spontaneous imaginative play his peers engage in. My DH works with pre teens ASD children and he says some of them have the most amazing imagination, usually sci-fi related. The issues then often are that they don't know where the boundaries between reality and imagination lie

 

Lx

[josie h]

I agree with you totally. C has a diagnosis of High Functioning Autism. Initally, when he was at nursery, I was told he had good imaginative skills. He would put on 'shows' for all the other children. These were, as i later found out, copies of the shows he had seen at our ccaravan and he was doing the 'cabaret.' Now he still appears to have a good imaginaition, but also copies films, tv shows and sometimes what he has read in a book and makes it into whatever game he is playing. C finds it very hard to play with his younger sister now that she wants to lead the games. He plays with her through a script, telling her what her 'character' has to say and do. It's very frustratinf or both her and me. She wants to gain her confidence, but still has trouble understanding the needs and differences with her brother. Sorry I can't give you any advice, but thought you'd like to knwo you're not alone.

[claire3005]

Thanx all for your replys its good to know your not alone.