Horribly rude!

[KarenT]

Hi all

 

I've been having a rough time with J the past week, with an increase in his general rudeness, lack of manners, and apparent desire to be as offensive and unpleasant as is humanly possible. I'm not being flippant, he really does seem to be doing this deliberately for maximum effect, but apart from a brief spell of 'feeling viral' last week (one day) I can't think of anything that might have triggered it off. He's rarely ill anyway so I haven't any previous illnesses and after-effects to compare with.

 

He's always been quite oppositional, will argue any rules and always needs to do things his way, regardless of social norms and 'the way things are'. He's the sort of person who wastes vast amounts of time and energy on avoiding something rather than just getting on with it, even though there's always a negative consequence for him. But this past week he's made a considerable leap in just how rude he's become. His attitude/tone of voice are aggressive and confrontational, his choice of words is rude and insulting, he demands rather than asks and expects everything instantly, and he's pretty hideous to be with. I feel like I'm on his back all the time, correcting him and explaining why his tone and words are so inappropriate.

 

In the past we've always said about J that 'he knows the difference between right and wrong but it's hard to put it into practice' but right now I no longer feel this is the case. He definitely knows his behaviour is wrong but he's going ahead and doing it anyway, often looking me in the eye as he does it. In that respect he does seem to be setting out to be as irritating and horrible as he can. He's also been much more hyperactive than usual (which is an achievement in itself!), and even commented about how unsettled he felt but didn't know why or how to stop it.

 

I'm not sure how to deal with this. Normally with inappropriate behaviour I'd ignore it as much as possible but so far attempts to do that have had no effect and anyway he's being so horrible it's hard to ignore without challenging it. I'm not even sure how much of it is deliberate or whether there's been a shift in his autism and this has now become part of the picture - he's been asking me to write a social story and make a list of appropriate responses, things he should say etc and that's usually his admission that he needs help with something - I'm getting mixed messages from him and consequently not sure how best to manage it.

 

His current obsession is the Wii he got for Christmas, and the Spiderwick Chronicles website. Usually he has to earn screen time for chores/homework etc around the house. I've put it to him that from the weekend I want him to earn every minute of screen time for more appropriate behaviour and part of that is to stop being so damned rude. He wasn't this bad a fortnight ago and I'll be happy for him to return to where he was then. I've given him to the end of the week so that if he's doing it on purpose he can stop before the new sanctions are in place.

 

Sorry this is a long one, especially as I haven't been on the forum much lately, but could use some good advice. In particular, can anyone recommend any good books for teaching socially appropriate behaviour, good responses, tone of voice etc?

 

Thanks

Karen

x

[stressedmumto2]

That sounds very much like my T. How old is your son?

 

I have found what helps us is praising everytime he does say something nice or does something good, at times I have even said "thankyou for saying thankyou T" and then sometimes and a little "it makes me feel happy that you are using good manners", it all depends on his mood though!! at the mo' I am trying to set up a I make the demand you do it then you get what you want, for too long it has been the other way around!!!

 

So for this he has a first and then board-first you get dressed then you play pc, the visuals works better than keep nagging.

 

T expects everything to be done immediatly aswell but he's slowly learning sometimes he has to wait, so I will explain I will do it but after I have done such and such, i.e. put washing in machine then I will make your toast and if I need to give him the timer if it's going to be say more than 10 mins I do that so he knows how long I will be, I have found this method works better than just ignoring him, which I used to do.

 

My SaLT also suggested using a board with 5 cards saying "do it now" or similar, he could call me to do it now 5 times in a day but as soon as he used the cards it would have to go in the envelope, she suggested this may help him to learn that he can do somethings by himself and that I wouldn't go to hi immediatly but we haven't used this idea. Often if he is insisting on food immediatly and I am busy I always give him the choice of getting it himself, this may not be appropiate if your son is still young though.

 

I know this probably isn't alot of help but there is alo a site called sandbox learning company which I find really good, have a look and see what you think <'>

[Kinda]

Wow

 

Your posting had me worried as I don't feel qualified to give advice on this issue but felt you needed some help. Also not sure how old your child is and whether there is the teenager element to the behaviour.

 

I'm also not sure if the confrontation/behaviour is linked to not getting the screen time or is linked to something else. If the issue is disagreement or resistance to chores vs reward you could remove this link and see how you get on, but then again this maybe the only route you have to exert some pressure and cap behaviour.

 

Not sure how old he is and whether the reward vs behaviour will work forever as there must come a stage when this will no longer work?

 

A friend of mine went to a AS conference in which they talked about "spinning plates" and wot they meant was that when they are doing something they enjoy and are relaxed with then get alongside them and join in spinning the plates and then gently approach the subject that is an issue to you.

 

My son had his moments when he was a teenager but we had never used with holding any treats, not sure why but it just never panned out that way, it was not from any principled view. It seemed to me we were all so busy trying to exist that this got lost in the translation somewhere.

 

Obviously unacceptable behaviour can't be tolerated and has to be corrected but of course when we do this we must keep our approach level below theirs so we don't escalate the situation. I don't think there is a plan that will automatically work, unfortunately its you that is still left with the problem to sort and it's a matter of trying to get your point across without escalating the disagreement.

 

Hang in there and keep up the good work. Perhaps you could try just confronting on the major issues that are totally unacceptable and see how you get on or as the Amercans would say "cut him a bit of slack" on the lesser issues.

 

Hope it helps, even if its only to disagree with me but hopefully it may help for you to review how you react to events as they unfold. Don't forget we don't get taught how to bring children up we have to learn from our mistakes!

 

Good luck

Edited January 22, 2008 by Kinda

[Karen A]

Hi Karen.I don't know the ''Spiderwick Chronicles Website'' so I may be way off the mark. However I wondered whether it could be causing the changes in Js behaviour.We decided to stop access to a specific website because Ben got very involved and became so confrontational when we attempted to set boundaries.

I don't know how old J is.If he is in the 10-18 age range then it may be pre-teen or teenage need to show he is growing up.I have noticed that my previously very helpful and pleasant elder son [age 12] is less easy of late.

I have found with Ben that it is important to maintain firm boundaries and to be clear when his behaviour is not acceptable.Karen.

[oxgirl]

Karen, my sypathies, your J sounds very much like my Jay, who is also going through a very 'teenagery' stage at the mo. He also has a lot of 'trouble' with tone of voice. He's always being accused of being 'rude' but very often he isn't meaning to be rude, he doesn't realize how his comments come across. More recently, though, he is starting to say things a tad more aggressively and impatiently then even before, he's 14, and I'm sure it's a hormone thing.

 

If he comes bursting in with one of his demanding voices on, I tend to just hold up my hand and turn my face away and tell him that I'm not willing to discuss it with him until he changes his manner. This will usually result in a lot of shouting and stomping about and then he will make an attempt to come back with a more moderate tone of voice. I try and stay calm when he's using this tone and just ask him (firmly) to please moderate his tone of voice, if I start getting cross and telling him off, it will just make matters worse at this point.

 

I think a lot of Jay's problem is that he doesn't tolerate people making mistakes very easily. If he's with his TA in class and she gets something wrong he'll jump on her (verbally!) and argue and rant at her and it's only afterwards, when he discusses it with me on the way home in the car, that he can see that he's been unfair or unreasonable. I'll usually suggest that he go back the following day and apologise, but not sure if he ever remembers to do that.

 

It is hard and very irritating, isn't it, but I try, rather than being MORE strict, to give him a bit of slack and stay as calm as is possible and he does end up seeing that he hasn't been very nice, whereas if I were to start ranting at him and punishing him then it would just make him dig his heels in even more.

 

~ Mel ~

[mossgrove]

Karen

 

Is anything stressing your son at the moment?

 

We have the behaviours you describe from out son when something is really worrying him. In the past it has been things like worrying about forgetting lines in his school play, a change of routine at school or his regular teacher being off.

 

The difficult part is realising what it is, as there is no direct link between what is worrying him and the behaviour. The nearest thing to an explanation we have been able to come up with is that if there is something bad in his life that he cannot control he responds by becoming far more agressive and controlling in an area of his life where he feels he can try and assert control.

 

It is very hard to deal with this behaviour at the time. It just doesn't sink in or get procressed. We find the best way is to wait until he is competely calm (Just before he ges to bed usually), give him loads of reassurance that we klove him, then explain that some of the things he is doing are making us sad, and ask if there is anything that is worrying him.

 

It's not an easy judgement and only you can make it. You cannot condone and allow poor behaviour, but a sanctions-based approach may not work and could easily escalate the situation if he feels you are not being fair. More TLC may be the answer even if, on the face of it, it doesn't seem appropriate.

 

Simon

[Nic m]

Hi ,

I have found this thread very interesting.My daughter has been quite confrontational this week and we had a big meltdown at the weekend.

I was down on her like a ton of bricks and initially felt bad but the next day calm was restored to the household.

My daughter has just turned 11 hormones are racing just now, she is becoming more self aware, noticing the differences between her and her peers.

The other thing is that after the christmas break (any holiday this happens) she is relaxed and enjoys the rest and a few weeks into the routine again and she is exhausted which i think is the biggest reason for her outburst.

This may have a similar effect on your son.

I have to be very strict with my daughter when her behaviour gets like this because if i dont she sees it as a weakness.

I always tell her i love her but i now, after a long time understand the need to keep her routine and my rules in place even more so when she is out of control.

This has been a long time coming for me to understand and it is was works for us but you will know your son best.

Good luck with whatever you do

nic

[sueeltringham]

Just wanted to back up what others have said and send hugs. Although my son is probably a lot younger than yours, I do work with teenagers. I think children of all ages, ASD or not are frequently testing their boundaries, so this is what we do:

Set your boundaries/rules (visual is better for us)

Be consistent

Reward even little steps forward with praise, treats, whatever works (again, visual works well for us, but I have to be very upbeat and positive)

Sanctions should be immediate and followed through.

 

Generally we find this works well, but if my son over steps the mark he gets one warning with warning of consequence for repetition. We don't usually have to remove privelages (eg. computer, tv), but the threat works for us. If we do remove tv/computer behaviour is worse initially, but we have longer term benefits: he knows we WILL follow through! Good luck,

 

Sue

[KarenT]

Thanks for taking time to reply. Sorry, I should have given more info ? J is 9 with dx of HFA/AS. I think he?s too young for teenage hormones, he?s still very immature generally, but likes the idea of being more grown up. I?m more convinced now that his rudeness is a deliberate attempt to be clever and sophisticated but it?s backfiring. In that respect, I accept that there are roots to his behaviour in autism but he?s definitely doing what he?s doing on purpose.

 

Last night I took him to his monthly social club, held this time at a venue he?d never been to before. He was rude to DH and I on the way there, demanding music played in the car (he didn?t get it) and generally being difficult and confrontational about everything we said or did. However on arrival at the centre, he was politeness personified as the staff member led us to the sports hall, asking appropriate questions about the place and generally being charming. He appeared to have forgotten he was meant to be being rude! When I picked him up again later he was being rude and pedantic to the staff and other children (which they no doubt saw as him ?taking things literally? but I know from experience that he was nitpicking). Rude and demanding again in the car all the way home despite our efforts to challenge his behaviour. We talked briefly at bedtime, about discouraging his rudeness and finding ways of helping him to understand more appropriate behaviour and responses, which he seemed comfortable with.

 

Thanks for all your suggestions, much of which we do as a matter of course anyway. J?s very ?into? all the strategies we use at home, very keen to work on problem issues, increasingly aware of how his autism affects him on a daily basis but knows that he has to find ways around his problems to have a successful and happy future. He?s very enthusiastic about social stories, visual aids etc and responds well to praise and positives. I do a lot of certificates for good behaviour, random acts of kindness and the like and these go down very well. We are extremely structured and consistent at home and J knows the boundaries but has a need to push them constantly, even though he knows he?s going to be disappointed. Although he definitely expects attention as and when he requests it he certainly doesn?t get it, it?s explained to him why he must wait and his needs are attended to after an appropriate time has elapsed. Generally, he?s made a huge amount of progress over the past 15 months or so by using these strategies and he?s thrilled at his achievements, for which he gets a great deal of praise and encouragement.

 

I don?t think screen time is an issue here because that?s something we?ve had in place for several months without major problems ? he?s accepted that it has to be earned and understands why this is necessary. Nor is he particularly stressed about the games/websites he?s using, although (like Baggy with her DD) he does get irritated at times when he can?t get a game to work. However this has always been the case and it soon blows over and he?s fine next time he plays. I don?t think there?s anything stressing him either (I?ve asked, usually he?d say so or I?d be able to tell by his body language), the only other possible is this very minor cold, and that?s never affected him this way in the past.

 

What?s concerned me with this particular situation is the suddenness of the change in him. Although as I said he has always been confrontational and oppositional and will always argue a rule if he doesn?t like how it affects him personally, this rudeness has escalated by a massive margin and this last week has been pretty horrid.

 

J has historically responded better to withdrawal of privileges over increased positives, rewards etc for appropriate behaviour so I do feel I have to find some way of managing this with sanctions. But in the meantime there?s also the autistic element of him not fully understanding appropriate interactions with people so I will need to work with him on tone of voice, good and bad responses etc and how they affect the people you?re with. One thing we?re working on at present is how an individual?s behaviour will impact on how others behave towards them in return, ie taking some responsibility for making people cross or irritable etc and the consequences, and he?s comfortable with this and keen to work on it. So he DOES understand a lot of this social interaction business, the question is which bits and how do we tackle what?s missing.

 

Thanks again for all your suggestions and support ? I guess I?ll just have to keep on at it and find a way, as ever! And sorry this is so long, wanted to comment on all your replies and got carried away. Any other suggestions gratefully received!

 

Karen

x

 

PS: Sue, whereabouts in Northumberland are you? I wonder if we both access the privately run autism charity in Morpeth?!

[KarenT]

Sorry about the bleedin' question marks. That always happens when you draft a reply in Word and copy it in. Soz.

 

K

x

[Karen A]

Karen.It sounds like you are doing everything you could be doing....and more.I did have one other thought.Could J have picked up some of the his current attitude from peers at school.Ben is also 9.He sometimes says things that he has obviously picked up from others at school.He will copy things that others have found amusing without appreciating that he may end up in trouble for saying things from the playground in other contexts. Karen.

[KarenT]

Totally agree Karen, I've considered that too. J transferred to another school last Sept and for the first time has lots of friends, playing out at breaktimes, so lots of influences there. And I've heard them (and some of their parents!) talk so wouldn't be surprised. Either way, he needs to know what's OK and what's not, so onwards and upwards!

 

Thanks,

Karen

x

[Karen A]

<'> <'> I do understand.Ben has made some friends and I am really pleased he is doing well...but the stroppy attitude is a new challenge. Karen.

[Kinda]

Karen A

 

I just picked up on the fact that when he came out of his club his attitude had changed to when he went in and you might want to explore this with him as to the reason that lay behind the change. What happened to him in the shared group that affected him that caused this?

 

I also found from my own experience that our son had different faces and attitudes for us compared to his friends and their parents we almost felt that he was punishing us at times because of his frustrations. But of course this is no different to most people who have different relationships with different people.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Kinda

[mossgrove]

Last night I took him to his monthly social club, held this time at a venue he?d never been to before. He was rude to DH and I on the way there, demanding music played in the car (he didn?t get it) and generally being difficult and confrontational about everything we said or did. However on arrival at the centre, he was politeness personified as the staff member led us to the sports hall, asking appropriate questions about the place and generally being charming.

 

That sounds very like our son (Aspergers, 10). The transition to a new place (A new venue would be a completely new place to him , even if to an NT adult it was the usual club somehwere else) is always incredibly stressful for him and poor 'controlling' behaviours on the way there such as demanding a tape in the car is exactly what he would do. It would be interesting to see if your son behaves in the same way if he goes back to the same venue.

 

Simon

[KarenT]

I just picked up on the fact that when he came out of his club his attitude had changed to when he went in and you might want to explore this with him as to the reason that lay behind the change. What happened to him in the shared group that affected him that caused this?

 

I also found from my own experience that our son had different faces and attitudes for us compared to his friends and their parents we almost felt that he was punishing us at times because of his frustrations. But of course this is no different to most people who have different relationships with different people.

He actually had a good time at the club and staff reported that he'd done well, so I don't think he was upset by the event. It was martial arts based anyway and he loves that, so he'd been looking forward to it. The attitude he came out with is the same as he's been for the past week, longer if you reduce the severity. In this case the 'blip' was the brief spell of politeness to the staff.

 

Agree about different attitudes with parents, and I do feel that J takes a lot out on us that others don't have to face. Eg, waiting for him to come out of school last night his teacher approached and told me another boy had taken J's glasses and hidden them under a coat, they'd got bent slightly but the teacher said J was fine about it, quite philosophical. However when J came out he was cross about it. Even so, this current wave of behaviour has lasted almost a week so the broken glasses couldn't account for any of that, even last night. Interesting though that he was so polite to the centre staff, showed a definite element of control over himself, I thought.

 

Karen

x

[KarenT]

That sounds very like our son (Aspergers, 10). The transition to a new place (A new venue would be a completely new place to him , even if to an NT adult it was the usual club somehwere else) is always incredibly stressful for him and poor 'controlling' behaviours on the way there such as demanding a tape in the car is exactly what he would do. It would be interesting to see if your son behaves in the same way if he goes back to the same venue.

Hi Simon

 

J's actually one of those unusual Aspies who likes going to new places and meeting new people, but starts to get unsettled with subsequent visits. It's so interesting how varied their individual presentations are, isn't it?

 

Karen

x

[Sallya]

Hi Karen, <'>

........is all well at school since they returned back from the Christmas break?...........is he struggling in class or having any problem being picked on.........or are there any changes that you don't know about? Maybe a chat with his teach might shed a bit of light on the subject.......

s

xxx

[KarenT]

Hi Sally, thanks for replying.

 

Everything seems well at school - he's been fine since returning and is still I think in the 'honeymoon period' after joining the school in September. Has lots of nice friends to play with, loves his teachers, enjoys lessons, is generally doing well.

 

I've given this a lot of thought over the last few days and have concluded that J is just pushing boundaries, but obviously there's an autistic element in there too. We've had a few discussions and planned some strategies to start in a week or so, and the simple fact that we've taken joint control of the situation seems to have helped him calm a little. He's still being very rude and his tone inappropriate, but he's accepted that he's going to be taught how to get it right and has been accepting my guidance when he makes a mistake (whereas before he was getting cross with me for 'criticising'). I feel better about the situation now as I have some things to try.

 

Thanks for all the input on this, much appreciated as ever.

 

Karen

x

[Karen A]

<'> <'> Karen.I do understand.Your last post could have been OH and I talking about our DS.Karen.