Apologising for nothing

[Mumble]

:huh:

 

Please can someone explain - it's been suggested that I apologise for a misunderstanding (this is related to my accommodation) even though I haven't done anything wrong (it's someone else's misunderstanding and nothing to do with my explanation) as this would be a way of potentially resolving some issues. Yes I want the issues resolved, but:

 

a)Why (and how) should I apologise for something I haven't done? An apology is about admitting you have done wrong, but I haven't

 

b)Isn't this lying? I'm saying I know I did this when I know I didn't do it?

[Flora]

Mumble, I'm not posting at the moment because I've a lot on my mind with the tribunal on thursday, but felt strongly enough to post here.

 

You have done absolutely nothing wrong. I'm annoyed for you that they should suggest that YOU apologise for somebody else's mistake. I have no idea what you can do about this, it seems that no matter how hard you try to get these people to understand, the less they understand!!!!

 

I think there are occasions when it's a good idea to apologise just for general peace, but this isn't one of those occasions. If you were to go along with it and apologise, then all that will happen is that the other students (who were wrongly accused of making a noise by the management people) will believe even more that it was your fault, and the real people at fault will believe their own actions have been right all along.

 

I wish I could suggest something, hopefully someone else can.

 

But don't apologise!!!!

 

flora XX

[Karen A]

Hi Mumble.NT individuals sometimes apologise for things that are not their fault as a way of smoothing over the issue.They pretend things are ok....yes it is a lie.It is one way to deal with a disagreement.

I do not tend to use it as a way to resove issues either.I think it is unhelpful and manipulative.

Somone who does not understand you very well is hoping you will resolve the issue so that the problem goes away.Karen.

[baddad]

 

Please can someone explain - it's been suggested that I apologise for a misunderstanding (this is related to my accommodation) even though I haven't done anything wrong (it's someone else's misunderstanding and nothing to do with my explanation) as this would be a way of potentially resolving some issues. Yes I want the issues resolved, but:

 

a)Why (and how) should I apologise for something I haven't done? An apology is about admitting you have done wrong, but I haven't

 

b )Isn't this lying? I'm saying I know I did this when I know I didn't do it?

 

Apologising doesn't always mean that you've done something wrong. Thinking about it, i guess nine times out of ten people apologise for the discomfort they've inadvertantly caused others rather than for discomfort they've aroused deliberately. I'm always apologising for things I haven't done - and there are probably many out there who think I don't apologise enough!

Without specific, it's impossible to answer a and b, but some thoughts:

 

a ) Why? because you've upset someone (albeit accidentally) or because it's 'politic' to do so.. How? by saying, 'I'm very sorry for any offense - there was none intended' or 'I'm sorry for the misunderstanding'...

BEWARE>>> do not qualify the apology with any 'buts' or further explanation.

 

b ) Think of it as 'imaginative re-creation'. Unless it's something as straightforward as 'No I did not eat the cake' (and even there ther can be grey areas like the unspoken addendum but i did eat half of it) then chances are whether you did or didn't is open to interpretation... (say ben breaks a toy by bending it in half and snapping it, and then says he 'didn't do it on purpose'... he's being quite truthful, because he didn't intend it to snap, but I can quite 'truthfully' feel that he did do it on purpose because he bent it in half until it snapped... we could (and probably would) then have a huge row about the fact that he wasn't aware of the pressure/material/angle considerations in the equation, but that wouldn't make him (or me) 'right' or 'wrong'...

 

[Mumble]

Now I'm coming from exactly where Flora is coming from and I really don't want to apologise. The thing is, the suggestion has come from someone I do trust as a way to resolve some of the tensions and at least make me more comfortable with living here (I went to bed really scared last night for instance because of what was going on outside my door - thinking I might make use of an Aspie-Brick ) and I can understand that anything that makes things better is good, but I'm really stuck on the lying and admitting guilt thing.

 

BEWARE>>> do not qualify the apology with any 'buts' or further explanation.

What do you mean? Not say why I thought there was a misunderstanding etc? Not say that the noise issue is with the people below me? I'm going to do this (if I do it) by letter/email.

 

Think of it as 'imaginative re-creation'. Unless it's something as straightforward as 'No I did not eat the cake' (and even there ther can be grey areas like the unspoken addendum but i did eat half of it) then chances are whether you did or didn't is open to interpretation

This I like. I could defiantly make use of imaginative re-creation What I don't want to do is anything that could make things worse - I'm not sure this is possible, but it could be and that frightens me.

[llisa32]

OOOOO.....I've had to have a ciggie so's I don't say bad things bout yr accomodation person and get myself moderated!!

 

I'm gonna take a guess at the current sitation this morning....

 

DW/Halls have 'suggested' that to alleviate the current harrassment you are getting as a result of their huge mess up by (a) telling the wrong bunch of students off for making noise...and (2) letting those same students know who it was that complained, that 'YOU' apologise to the same bunch of students for the misunderstanding??

 

Is that what you have been asked??

 

if so....then no...the only thing I could think off that you could say to the students would be 'Halls and DW got it all wrong, and are now trying to put it right - sorry if you were cross about getting told off.

 

But....my opinion is that DW and Halls peeps should be running round to all of those students as fast as there clompy feet will let them apologising for 'THEIR' error

 

And....DW and Halls should definately be the ones running around making huge apologetic noises wayyyyy before you make/if you make any comment to students - and if you do make any comment make sure you are not apologising on your behalf....you would merely say you were sorry for them that halls and dw got it wrong.

 

You have done nothing at all wrong <'> the above suggested comment for your 'apology' are just part of the nicecities thing that baddad mentions in part a of his post

Edited February 26, 2008 by llisa32

[Mumble]

Is that what you have been asked??

Nope! :lol:

 

This was sup's suggestion as a way of calming things a bit (so I don't spend the rest of the year in tears and actually get some work done, I think )

 

the only thing I could think off that you could say to the students would be 'Halls and DW got it all wrong, and are now trying to put it right - sorry if you were cross about getting told off.

I think that's a useful way of phrasing it. Not quite what it's been suggested I do, but I think I could cope with that. I won't say they're now trying to put it right though, because they're not.

 

OOOOO.....I've had to have a ciggie so's I don't say bad things bout yr accomodation person and get myself moderated!!

Oh gawd!! I am very very sorry that I have been unhelpful to you in your attempt to give up the ciggies by causing you to take on some of my stress. There, apology done.

 

And now I'm going out, because it appears the students have woken up . . .

[llisa32]

You're not making me smoke Mumble, and you're definately not adding to my stress <'>

 

I'm just cross with yr halls peeps on yr behalf....

 

I think you're right not to say they are trying to put it right if thus far they are not!

 

I hope you manage a phrase that you are happy with, but def mention not your error <'>

[Karen A]

OH Your sup is usually supportive aren't they.....

Completely ignore the unhelpful advice I gave earlier.

The sup may well be attempting to find a way to help resolve the problems so that you can get some work done and feel happier.

 

In which case take note of BDs excellent advice.Karen.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Karen A
Adding info

[Kinda]

Hi Mumble

 

Can I add my 2p worth to the debate.

 

Constructivism (communication theory) accepts that we as people do not always pick up the message as intended by the sender. This is important as it explains why/how miscommunication sometimes occurs or why in meetings we all come out with different understandings of what was said.

 

(The opposite of constructivism is scientific communication which does not accept that people will mis interpret communication). Scientific view of knowledge is absolute and not open to interpretation whereas constructivism accepts its only correct in terms of our understanding of the universe and the knowledge we have gained.

 

Likewise when courts try to get at the "truth" its only the truth in so much as 2 sides have presented a case and the judge or jury has decided they believe one version of events over another. Its not necessarily the "truth" in religious absolute terms.

 

While I believe your version of events my argument would be "can I (you) afford to stick to my principles and be unhappy or could I bend it a bit and accept a compromise" (I realise you see it as a capitulation). I guess what I'm trying to get to is if the noise stops is the compromise worth it or will you be unhappy if you accept the compromise position but the noise continues.

 

For me its what you will gain from conceding the point (If anything or maybe all of what you want) and whether you can live with it afterwards. I think the compromise position also acknowledges that you are correct but willing to see their point of view regardless of how hard done to you feel.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Kinda

[Mumble]

OH Your sup is usually supportive aren't they.....

Yes, very, and I think he wants to help me to get some resolve to this mess so that I can be happier - which seems a sensible thing to try and do. I guess I'm thinking too black and white - I'm not understanding the subtleties of apology and communication. I have a real problem with seeing things as either right or wrong and because in this case I know I'm right (in that I haven't made the complaint that it has been said I have done) but I feel that apologising is about being 'wrong', I'm finding it very hard to reconcile the two positions.

[Flora]

Yes, very, and I think he wants to help me to get some resolve to this mess so that I can be happier - which seems a sensible thing to try and do. I guess I'm thinking too black and white - I'm not understanding the subtleties of apology and communication. I have a real problem with seeing things as either right or wrong and because in this case I know I'm right (in that I haven't made the complaint that it has been said I have done) but I feel that apologising is about being 'wrong', I'm finding it very hard to reconcile the two positions.

 

 

Mumble, If you manage to find a way of apologising when you know you're not wrong... can you let me know how to do it??? It's been a real sticking point with me all of my life and still is.... I have done it before but it plays on my mind for ever and a day and so I try to avoid apologising and then that's even worse!!!

 

I still don't think you should be apologising to these people though mumble (see there I go again ) , in fact I think THEY should be apologising to YOU. but then again, as you know, I'm just ###### minded

 

Whatever you decide to do mumble, hope it gets the desired result.

 

Flora XXX

[Mumble]

Mumble, If you manage to find a way of apologising when you know you're not wrong... can you let me know how to do it??? It's been a real sticking point with me all of my life and still is.... I have done it before but it plays on my mind for ever and a day and so I try to avoid apologising and then that's even worse!!!

 

I still don't think you should be apologising to these people though mumble (see there I go again ) , in fact I think THEY should be apologising to YOU. but then again, as you know, I'm just ###### minded

Now this is the problem - I totally totally agree with you, and know that if I go ahead and do what has been suggested, even if it makes my living conditions more tolerable (which I'm not actually convinced it will), I will be metaphorically and literally beating myself up for doing something that goes totally against my belief systems.

 

What I'm doing for now is assuming the ostrich position and waiting until I've talked with my supervisor in a weeks time. It'll give me some space to think (and worry) and you never know, the students may have given up their hate campaign in that time as they're not getting any reaction from me and it's just wasting their drinking time. And you're totally right, there are people who should be apologising to me, not the other way around.

[Kinda]

Hi Mumble

 

Guess the point I was trying to make is there is the aspect of who is right and wrong and from the information you have provided you are clearly the agrieved and then there is the aspect of building relationships with the other students.

 

Building the relationships with others is not necessarily about who is right and who is wrong but about building relationships for the future. I realise the two issues maybe linked in your view and I understand this.

 

The question is if you feel that a relationship with the other students is worth having then you may consider a more concilitory approach for the sake of this relationship. If you consider that you can't apologise for something that was not your fault then that is fine also.

 

I would also write to the head of course and copy head of university explaining exactly what has happened to you and that you hold them responsible for the behaviour of the other students and that this is affecting your wellbeing.

[bid]

Do you know anyone who is skilled in the art of weasle-words??

 

My DH used to work for the MOD, and he has a fine line in 'Civil Service Speak'. I have often asked him how to phrase things in a cunning way, especially in letters.

 

His suggestion would be something along the lines of...

 

'We seem to be in an unhappy/untenable/word of your choice situation, and I'm very sorry for that...'

 

He says that, grammatically, it can be interpreted in one of two ways: you are expressing your undoubted sorrow at the unpleasant state of affairs, OR you are sorry for your part in this unpleasant state of affairs.

 

If they choose to understand the second interpretation, when you meant the first, that is up to them

 

Don't know if that helps, or at least gives some cunning pointers for your own composition.

 

Good luck <'>

 

Bid

[Mumble]

Do you know anyone who is skilled in the art of weasle-words??

Weasel-words - I like that

 

When I'm done with being an ostrich, I'll take up being a weasel :lol:

[Flora]

bid, that's just fabulous

 

 

Um, can I borrow your husband bid???

 

Flozza

[Bard]

This is just how I deal with some stuff in my life, it's a personal approach. I wouldn't presume to say that anyone else should do the same. I'm not saying that those who tackle things differently are wrong.

 

I'm always apologising for things, some of which are my fault, some of which aren't, and many things that I don't feel deeply or strongly about. If it makes someone else happier or calmer, then I apologise if I've upset them unintentionally, sometimes they're cross and it wasn't my fault, but I sympathise with them.

 

I have a reputation at work and in life for being easy-going because I don't get annoyed about most things, staff rooms can be a nightmare of affronted people who won't communicate with each other because of some slight, and then you end up with stressful silences and people talking about others behind their backs etc.

I have to deal with parents on a daily basis, some of whom are aggressive, defensive and feeling that someone, school, me, life in general owes them an apology. Whilst they're feeling cross and grumpy, it's hard to establish positive communication, so I find that it's more effective to defuse a situation before it escalates.

Occasionally it's a situation that I can't compromise on, so I don't.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Bard

[Mumble]

Whilst they're feeling cross and grumpy, it's hard to establish positive communication, so I find that it's more effective to defuse a situation before it escalates.

Do you not feel that you are lying, either to them or to yourself? I'm just curious - I can see that maybe an apology might help one situation, put for me, although the other person might be happier, it would create greater internal stress and me constantly going over and over it in my head.

[Bard]

Do you not feel that you are lying, either to them or to yourself? I'm just curious - I can see that maybe an apology might help one situation, put for me, although the other person might be happier, it would create greater internal stress and me constantly going over and over it in my head.

 

And that's where we differ because it's degrees of 'lying' that I'm aware of, and the concept of 'white lies' that B is currently learning about. It's that shade of grey that some who see things as black and white polarities might struggle with.

 

' I'm sorry that you feel like that Mrs X, I didn't mean to upset you by...'

' I'm sorry that I ate the banana that you were intending to put in your lunchbox'

' I'm sorry that you were blamed for something that you didn't do by Mrs X, and if it was because of something I said. I bought you a box of chocolates'

 

I've lived with my partner since 1983, and I've never had an apology from him. Not ever. To apologise makes him uncomfortable, especially when it's his fault, so he never does. He seems to only be able to think of how he feels in a scenario and doesn't recognise when it's politic or kind to back down on something.

It puts a great strain on a relationship, so perhaps that's partly why smoothing situations over with family is something that I don't struggle with because I do it so often in so many different ways. I'm not into grovelling or abject apologising, just 'yes, sorry, moving on now'

I also don't go over and over things in my head, worrying about how I might have been ethically compromised, because to me it's a small thing.

With B, he's learning how to think about other people's perceptions of him, his actions and his words or lack of them. It's a minefield, but he's coping because there is no blame involved, just discussion about what he might have said. He can also relate situations and say ' and then he stopped talking and pulled a face and walked off...' and I help him work out how and why he might have upset someone, and how he can rectify the situation.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Bard

[Mumble]

' I'm sorry that you feel like that Mrs X, I didn't mean to upset you by...'

' I'm sorry that I ate the banana that you were intending to put in your lunchbox'

' I'm sorry that you were blamed for something that you didn't do by Mrs X, and if it was because of something I said. I bought you a box of chocolates'

*officially confused*

I'm not buying chocolates for every student on my corridor I'll buy chocolates for myself once I've performed weaselness.

[Bard]

I'll buy chocolates for myself once I've performed weaselness.

 

Which is also a plan!

Chocolate is a great comforter in times of confusion and general muddle.

I once got properly yelled at in the staffroom by another member of staff who thought I was being a pain. Next morning there was chocolate on my chair. We didn't talk, but I ate her apology.

[Tally]

Wow, do you think I will get chocolate from the snotty nosed little troll I have to work with?

 

Mumble, I guess if it was just one person you could buy chocolates, but chocolates for everyone is probably not reasonable.

 

Sorry doesn't have to mean you are accepting the blame. It just means that you wish that what happened had not happened. If I hurt myself, you might say "I am sorry to hear you hurt yourself," but you are not accepting blame for the fact that I hurt myself, you are just expressing that you wish I hadn't hurt myself.

 

You could say, "I am sorry you got into trouble, Mrs X misunderstood what I was telling her." That way you are acknowledging their upset and expressing your regret that it happened, without saying that it was your fault. When I am confused I try to think about how the other person feels. If I had been told off because someone complained about me, I would feel angry because I didn't do anything wrong. I might think that person complained about me because they hate me. If you can explain what happened, and acknowledge their anger, they might be able to transfer that anger to the right person.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Tally

[Mumble]

Wow, do you think I will get chocolate from the snotty nosed little troll I have to work with?

Do you want chocolate from someone who is snotty nosed (maybe if it's individually double wrapped it would be OK!)

 

Sorry doesn't have to mean you are accepting the blame. It just means that you wish that what happened had not happened. If I hurt myself, you might say "I am sorry to hear you hurt yourself," but you are not accepting blame for the fact that I hurt myself, you are just expressing that you wish I hadn't hurt myself.

This is a huge problem I also have and something I have never understood. With no disrespect to anyone at all, I don't understand why people say "sorry" when someone has died, because they didn't kill them. What are you saying sorry for - you didn't do anything? And in your example - sorry you hurt yourself - well unless I pushed you over or left out something you tripped over, what am I supposed to be sorry for? You would have hurt yourself whether or not I was there, and hence I can't be held responsible and don't have anything to say sorry for

[Tally]

That's the thing, "sorry" has two meanings.

 

It can mean, "I apologise for and regret something I have done wrong."

 

It can also mean, "I wish that hadn't happened," and can be a good way to express sympathy.

 

So in my example about if I hurt myself and someone said, "I am sorry you hurt yourself," that person is not saying, "I apologise for hurting you," they are saying, "it's unfortunate that you are hurt, I wish it hadn't happened." It's just a nice thing to say and might help them feel less upset.

 

So if you said sorry to the other students, you would be saying, "I wish you hadn't got blamed for the noise," without accepting that you are to blame for what happened. It could be a good way to smooth things over. I think that is what your supervisor is trying to help you with. I don't think he's asking you to accept responsibility. I think he's trying to help you find a way to smooth things over and resolve the awkward situation, so that you can feel less stressed about it.

 

I don't know if this makes any sense, and I am probably the last person to advise on this, but this is how I see it anyway.

[LittleRae]

Hi Mumble

 

I'd definitely go for something along the lines of: "I'm sorry Mrs X spoke to you about this incident. She mistakenly believes you were responsible although I told her it was Y & Z. I've let her know you were not responsible & I hope there's no hard feelings...'

 

If you object to the word sorry you could say 'I'm so upset that you were accused in this incident. Mrs X was told it was....... '

 

I think to get over this you need to convince yourself that the word 'sorry' is just something like a formula or a password. It's odd, if I don't feel like saying sorry to someone, I can easily say 'I apologise' - it means nothing to me!

[Kinda]

Hi Mumble

 

I think your plan should also include how they may react and answer you, not necessarily to correctly guess what they may say but to be prepared that they may accept your apology and then go on to discuss other issues. If the discussion goes well then you maybe able to start a relationship, a sort of distant relationship but sufficient to say hello in the corridor etc.

[Mumble]

If the discussion goes well then you maybe able to start a relationship, a sort of distant relationship but sufficient to say hello in the corridor etc.

No thank you. I'm going to do it by email. I just want to get back to state where I was ignored. Yes it was isolating, but at least I wasn't frightened

[warrenpenalver]

I would definitely not appologise for something you did not do.

 

There is nothing wrong with communicating with them and apologising on behalf of the university people for thier screw up to start the conversation. Then you should be able to explain your perspective and that you have no problem with these students but the university fouled up.