Non-Autistic Siblings

[baddad]

Bid has probably gone now...so does anyone know....what does imperative mean please ???? Karen.

I do not understand.

 

In this situation it means a different need or reason -in the sense that austistic people do it to satisfy a different need or 'urge' (I think)...

Trying to apply it to flapping, say, an 'NT' might flap as an expression of excitement or extreme happiness, while an autistic person might flap to alleviate the stress associated with the uncertainty those extremes represent... Personally, I think the distinction (imperative wise) is far to fine to call, and would fluctuate from person to person/situatiuon to situation anyway (regardless of 'as' or 'nt' status)...

Apologies if i misunderstood

 

BD

[Mumble]

I was going to ask the same, Karen Still not sure I get it

 

Trying to apply it to flapping, say, an 'NT' might flap as an expression of excitement or extreme happiness, while an autistic person might flap to alleviate the stress associated with the uncertainty those extremes represent

I'm really confuzzled. So does this mean that when I flap when I'm 'happy' I'm not happy but confused by the happiness of the happy state? Can I not just flap because I'm happy? And how's about flapping when I'm not happy? And not flapping when I am happy?

 

I think there's something of an element of control and realisation in this too. I don't know, but I suspect that when an NT flaps out of happiness they are fully aware and choosing to do this and can choose to stop instantly without something feeling incomplete - I don't know, I can only speculate. For me often, I'm not aware of my excited flaps unless my sister goes for her 'Oi, stop being a penguin' line, and then if I try to stop it's really really hard, like it's something I have to do - often makes me think of the Phantom of the Opera song, Past the Point of No Return - particularly the line - "What raging fire shall flood the soul" - I think it applies even more and I'm stressed and flapping - if I'm told not to flap, if I can't complete what I have to, that becomes my soul focus and intensifies and intensifies and has to be released in some way.

[Tally]

I would agree that all people have "traces" of autism, but I don't think that makes them autistic. It just helps them to understand bits and pieces.

 

My mum can relate to some of the sensory difficulties I have, because she also has them. It doesn't make her autistic, but she does understand some things about it.

 

My friend can relate to how it is to feel like you are different to other people, because she is gay.

[pearl]

I'm not saying JP's wrong, and if it helps him then I guess it's good. However, I really really don't like the 'we're all autistic' saying. It diminishes the real problem that those on the spectrum face and makes it too easy (as I said in a previous post) for our difficulties to be fobbed off as 'everyone does/has that'.

 

I'd rather he accepted & celebrated his difference, to be honest. I think its all part of him working through it all though, so I don't challenge him. Maybe I should.

[mariaterisa]

I'm really confuzzled. So does this mean that when I flap when I'm 'happy' I'm not happy but confused by the happiness of the happy state? Can I not just flap because I'm happy? And how's about flapping when I'm not happy? And not flapping when I am happy?

 

I think there's something of an element of control and realisation in this too. I don't know, but I suspect that when an NT flaps out of happiness they are fully aware and choosing to do this and can choose to stop instantly without something feeling incomplete - I don't know, I can only speculate. For me often, I'm not aware of my excited flaps unless my sister goes for her 'Oi, stop being a penguin' line, and then if I try to stop it's really really hard, like it's something I have to do - often makes me think of the Phantom of the Opera song, Past the Point of No Return - particularly the line - "What raging fire shall flood the soul" - I think it applies even more and I'm stressed and flapping - if I'm told not to flap, if I can't complete what I have to, that becomes my soul focus and intensifies and intensifies and has to be released in some way.

 

Hi..have got to respond to this bit about the flapping...you see chas..does this quite a lot, but he appears to be excited and happy or getting really into something...eg...if he is watching a fav programme and he sees ascene that he likes..he will flap,and rub his legs and breath through his teeth.,smiling!...Sometimes i mimic him and do the same...this makes him aware of what he is doing,he laughs and TELLS ME to stop being silly and i say..but you are doing it..and he stops. I find it an endearing little thing of his and we deal with it with humour....do you think my approach okay or should i be doing something else??? maria x

[Mumble]

Sorry Pearl, I hope I didn't come across as saying JP was wrong, I didn't mean that, really. I think everyone has to find a way to cope that suits them at a particular moment and in a particular context. <'>

[pookie170]

About flapping- my l'il bro(NT) used to flap and jump up and down when he got really upset, and my Cal flaps when he gets very stressed about things. But Mick knew he was flapping and when he got old enough to be embarrassed by it, would stop himself. Cal, on the other hand, cannot do this, it seems to be uncontrollable for him. Perhaps a way of releasing/communicating stress when words fail him?

[pearl]

Sorry Pearl, I hope I didn't come across as saying JP was wrong, I didn't mean that, really. I think everyone has to find a way to cope that suits them at a particular moment and in a particular context. <'>

 

Noooo, I thought you thought I was saying he was right!

Time for bed I fink.

[baddad]

I was going to ask the same, Karen Still not sure I get it

 

 

I'm really confuzzled. So does this mean that when I flap when I'm 'happy' I'm not happy but confused by the happiness of the happy state? Can I not just flap because I'm happy? And how's about flapping when I'm not happy? And not flapping when I am happy?

 

No - that's absolutely what i was saying when I said :

I think the distinction (imperative wise) is far to fine to call, and would fluctuate from person to person/situatiuon to situation anyway (regardless of 'as' or 'nt' status)...

 

I think there's something of an element of control and realisation in this too. I don't know, but I suspect that when an NT flaps out of happiness they are fully aware and choosing to do this and can choose to stop instantly without something feeling incomplete - I don't know, I can only speculate.

 

No, I think it's very much the same for NT & autistic people and that it is a spontaneous and unconscious expression of joy/stress/confusion etc...

To me, the difference seems to be that the 'NT' can 'reel it in' more readily when it becomes an issue - and i'm not sure whether that's a positive or a negative! Funnily enough, the general consensus seems to be that those who give free reign to this kind of thing (dance like no one is watching) are somehow more liberated, and (NT) people wish they could enjoy that 'liberation'... In reality, it's usually negative judgements that are applied but that may be more 'sour grapes' than actual scorn(?)...

 

not aware of my excited flaps unless my sister goes for her 'Oi, stop being a penguin' line, and then if I try to stop it's really really hard, like it's something I have to do - often makes me think of the Phantom of the Opera song, Past the Point of No Return - particularly the line - "What raging fire shall flood the soul" - I think it applies even more and I'm stressed and flapping - if I'm told not to flap, if I can't complete what I have to, that becomes my soul focus and intensifies and intensifies and has to be released in some way.

 

As above, I think the intensity of the 'urge' may be greater in autistics (or the ability to circumvent it is greater in NT's) but the underlying 'urge'(imperative) is the same... how much of that it is autism per se and how much is individual personality is impossible to gauge, but certainly there are those who have 'addictive' personalities (i.e. find it much harder to give up or avoid developing habits like smoking/alcohol/drug use) in both the autistic and NT populations. In some ways it could be argued that autistics are better able to avoid such problems because of their 'determination., singlemindedness and focus', but in reality it does seem more likely that their need for routines and predictability would make it more of a problem...

coming back to the original point though - not different imperatives, just varying degrees of the same imperatives...

 

BD

 

 

[bid]

Mmmmm, still can't see that it is the same imperatives.

 

For example, I need my routines and some of my obsessive behaviour because the future to me (as in any time other than right now) is completely formless like a sort of yawning void. My routines, my daily timetable, my lists and some of my obsessive stuff gives structure and form to what is otherwise essentially a chaotic nothingness which makes me acutely panicky and agitated.

 

I simply cannot see that this will be the same imperative for all those NT people who like to be 'organised'.

 

Bid

Edited April 13, 2008 by bid

[mossgrove]

Mmmmm, still can't see that it is the same imperatives.

 

For example, I need my routines and some of my obsessive behaviour because the future to me (as in any time other than right now) is completely formless like a sort of yawning void. My routines, my daily timetable, my lists and some of my obsessive stuff gives structure and form to what is otherwise essentially a chaotic nothingness which makes me acutely panicky and agitated.

 

I simply cannot see that this will be the same imperative for all those NT people who like to be 'organised'.

 

Bid

 

That's a tough one to call.

 

To the best of my knowledge my late Grandfather was not Autistic, but I think the reason he worked until he worked until he was 80 and kept to his routines was for exactly this reason. It certainly went beyond liking to be organised and being resistant to change.

 

There is also a potoential overlap with OCD here as a friend with OCD has similar issues. OCD and autism may have some issues in common, but they are not the same.

 

This is why it is so hard to say anything is definitely 'Autistic' or 'Not Autistic'. which leads me back the idea of everyone having a collection of issues and behaviours. I don't doubt for an instant that life is much harder for Mumble and yourself, but I am not sure I buy into the idea that each the issues you have, when looked at individually, is specific to someone who qualifies for a diagnosis.

 

Simon

Edited April 13, 2008 by mossgrove

[baddad]

Mmmmm, still can't see that it is the same imperatives.

 

For example, I need my routines and some of my obsessive behaviour because the future to me (as in any time other than right now) is completely formless like a sort of yawning void. My routines, my daily timetable, my lists and some of my obsessive stuff gives structure and form to what is otherwise essentially a chaotic nothingness which makes me acutely panicky and agitated.

 

I simply cannot see that this will be the same imperative for all those NT people who like to be 'organised'.

 

Bid

 

I guess the problem here is that the 'imperative' is entirely subjective - so the degree to which another person is motivated or compelled is an unkown quantity...

I think the routines and timetables you mention are 'Islands of Safety' that provide 'knowables' within a projected 'unknowable' (as you've described), but don't think the imperative's behind the need are necessarily different (other than, perhaps, and it would vary from individual to individual, by degree)...

Because it's so subjective it's hard to come up with an example that works for everyone, but if you think about something we can all generally accept as illogical, like 'superstition', and then think of the rituals/routines surrounding that...

(initially, i thought of walking under a ladder, but then thought some bright spark would say 'that's not illogical because a paint can could fall on your head' - which is tecnically true but isn't the reason we avoid walking under ladders!)

Someone mentioned having to spit and chant a rhyme if you see a solo Magpie (one for sorrow)... In my neck of the woods you have to salute him and say 'Good Morning' (actually, 'Good Morning, Captain Magpie' - but that's just being silly! )

Now the reality of that is that me saluting a solo magpie makes no difference to my day/week/life whatsoever, but no matter how ridiculous it is it feels like it makes a difference and I don't feel entirely comfortable if i don't do it. Some people actually become Martyrs to superstition and go out of their way to 'challenge' such poppycock by deliberately not avoiding ladders and things, but the mere fact that they feel so strongly about it implies a degree of importance that really isn't justified...

 

None of the above, of course, is intended to deny the very real impulses/imperatives you're talking about or to trivialise them, but for a small (?) number of people who are very superstitious the compulsion they feel to see through their behavioural rituals could be equally strong, and equally distressing if they were blocked from observing them.

I'm really lucky, because the rituals of my life are generally quite minor and their effects are too, but the underlying reasons for them (security, sense of wellbeing, consistency, 'place') are very much the ones you've described.

And as for Martyrdom.... I've actually made a point of letting some of my CD's get OUT of Alphabetical order . I did lose sleep over it , but am getting used to it now

 

[Shnoing]

...

My sister isn't on the spectrum, it doesn't fit with her large circle of friends and acquaintances, relationships, enjoyment of typical student type stuff, liking loud stuff, language use etc. Maybe she is shy (but I really can't see this) and maybe she has social communication issues ...

 

If NTs are, by definition, able to adapt easily into any given 'human environment', a NT could 'learn' Aspie behaviours without being an Aspie when four out of five family members are on the spectrum.

[pookie170]

Mmmmm, still can't see that it is the same imperatives.

 

For example, I need my routines and some of my obsessive behaviour because the future to me (as in any time other than right now) is completely formless like a sort of yawning void. My routines, my daily timetable, my lists and some of my obsessive stuff gives structure and form to what is otherwise essentially a chaotic nothingness which makes me acutely panicky and agitated.

 

I simply cannot see that this will be the same imperative for all those NT people who like to be 'organised'.

 

Bid

 

Hmm...this really interests me, Bid....Its one of the issues that keeps coming up during meetings re my son.... I believe that this is why, when he has a meltdown, it is so intense. That what is happening NOW for him, is the only thing that he can 'see'? For instance, if he's had a lovely day, pottering at the beach, and then some 'orrible brat, say, kicks down the sandcastle hes spent time on, he will have a meltdown, BIG stylee. But you can't reason with him that, look, we've had a fab day, this is one little blip... Or even, it'll be the same if we build it back up.... What is happening to him at the moment is all he can see, during meltdowns at any rate. Whereas, yes, Lijey would also go nuclear if someone kicked his sandcastle down, but he could be eased out of it by encouraging him to cast his mind back/forwards....

Obviously, I'm not talking about routine/obsession here, but the idea that the future is formless for him. That would terrify me, it really would....

 

Esther x

[bid]

But what is autism for all of you, then?? I know you're not really, but you're almost 'talking' it out of existence??

 

(And sorry, BD, but I don't buy the superstition comparison at all ).

 

Bid

 

Oooh, and just for the record, I don't have OCD (and that's official! )

Edited April 13, 2008 by bid

[Mumble]

Oooh, and just for the record, I don't have OCD (and that's official! )

I thought you did? Officially Clinically Dressed.

 

the idea that the future is formless

That's exactly what terrifies me so much and what I think many people find it hard to grasp about me. I find it almost impossible to come up with possibilities of what might happen, especially if I've been told what will happen. I am so terrified about the future at the moment because beyond the end on studentdom, I can see/imagine nothing. All I have is a black void and that, not being able to imagine what might fill it, is terrifying, really terrifying. All the while, the void gets closer and closer with each passing day.

 

There, that's a nice bit of doom and gloom for a Sunday afternoon.

[bid]

I thought you did? Officially Clinically Dressed.

 

Er-em...that's Officially Clinically (Well) Dressed I'll have you know!

 

Bid

Edited April 13, 2008 by bid

[Mumble]

Er-em...that's Officialy Clinically (Well) Dressed I'll have you know!

 

Well-Dressing? I thought they only did that in Derbyshire??

[bid]

Maybe there's a scale at local mental health assessments

 

Clinically Undressed (move down the hall to the ward right away).

 

Clinically Badly Dressed (tut, tut, look at that gravy stain down the front of your nightie, but congratulations you obviously have AS)

 

Clinically Dressed (mmm, I suppose you might have AS just so long as it's a tank top and cords)

 

Clinically Well-Dressed (go away, of course you haven't got AS, but just pick any label you feel comfortable with)

 

Bid

[Mumble]

Clinically Badly Dressed (tut, tut, look at that gravy stain down the front of your nightie, but congratulations you obviously have AS)

Well I wish you'd told me this before. I went with a custard stain ...

[baddad]

But what is autism for all of you, then?? I know you're not really, but you're almost 'talking' it out of existence??

 

(And sorry, BD, but I don't buy the superstition comparison at all ).

 

Bid

 

Oooh, and just for the record, I don't have OCD (and that's official! )

 

Well if anyone here can say what autism 'Is' they'll make a fortune!

It's not 'us' talking it out of existence it's you trying to talk it out of the framework of 'human condition' that it resides in and turn it into something 'other'... if you can offer one 'piece' of autism that isn't observable within the general population I'll accept that that piece may be autism specific...

For me, autism is a range of different communication and perception difficulties interacting within the same person to effect a significant impact in their day to day functioning. Further, those effects combine in such a way that can 'fit' an observable diagnostic criteria that has been given a specific name - autism.

And if you think I'm going to buy your 'I don't buy it' you've got another think coming!

What's flawed about it as an analogy (beyond the inherent flaw i highlighted that the 'imperatives' of autism are completely subjective)? Why doesn't it work?

You can't just say 'I don't buy it' (well you can, but not as a serious counter-argument!)

 

As for clinically well dressed - isn't that a crab that's been disected with a scalpel?

 

[Mumble]

Well if anyone here can say what autism 'Is' they'll make a fortune!

I know, I know *jumps up and down* :bounce: . Autism is what is diagnosable/measurable through autism screening instruments. It's the same argument as intelligence being what an IQ test measures. Now hand over my fortune ....

 

On a more serious note, I've been reading about the development of the AQ (used to screen adults). I think two things that are important come out of this:

 

Firstly,

The AQ "identifies the degree to which any individual adult of normal intelligence might have features of the core autistic phenotype ... In short, 80% of adults with AS or high functioning autism scored above a critical minimum of 32, whereas only 2% of control adults did."

 

And secondly:

"whether a high AQ score becomes disabling may depend on environmental factors (tolerance by significant others, or being valued for contribution at work, or a place in a social network, protecting against the risks of secondary depression) rather than solely on factors within the individual."

This suggests to me (and this is my interpretation) that everyone could have some autistic behaviours (not that everyone is autistic), but it is the degree to which an individual has these that determines whether they would receive a dx or not. In addition, within the AS/HFA dx-able range, other factors mingle with the AS/HFA to determine the severity with which the behaviours impact on daily life.

 

So, me scoring very highly on the AQ, is, in itself, not an indication of the severity of the issues I face (my score is simply within the dx-able range). My 'issues' (for want of a better word) are as much a product of the HFA as they are the lack of social support. If the social support was adequately 'fixed' I would still have the same AQ score and still be HFA, but I would be less 'disabled' by the high score.

 

Does that make any sense at all?? :unsure:

[bid]

Well if anyone here can say what autism 'Is' they'll make a fortune!

It's not 'us' talking it out of existence it's you trying to talk it out of the framework of 'human condition' that it resides in and turn it into something 'other'... if you can offer one 'piece' of autism that isn't observable within the general population I'll accept that that piece may be autism specific...

 

If you look at my earlier post I expressly said that actions aren't autistic or not autistic, because other posters were querying whether various behaviours/traits were 'autistic'...I'm not trying to turn it into something 'other'

 

For me, autism is a range of different communication and perception difficulties interacting within the same person to effect a significant impact in their day to day functioning. Further, those effects combine in such a way that can 'fit' an observable diagnostic criteria that has been given a specific name - autism.

 

Difficulties/imperatives...which is basically what I was saying??

 

 

And if you think I'm going to buy your 'I don't buy it' you've got another think coming!

What's flawed about it as an analogy (beyond the inherent flaw i highlighted that the 'imperatives' of autism are completely subjective)? Why doesn't it work?

You can't just say 'I don't buy it' (well you can, but not as a serious counter-argument!)

 

I can't see you accepting this analogy if someone made it in relation to Ben...Being overtly superstitious (and the constraints this 'condition' might bring) just isn't comparable to the difficulties and challenges faced by those with ASC. Equally, being overtly superstitious begins with the choice to adopt these daily restrictions, whereas there is no 'choice' in being born autistic.

 

How many times have I heard you rant about people saying 'Oh I do that/everyone does that/all children do that...' in relation to autism??

 

Bid

Edited April 13, 2008 by bid

[baddad]

How many times have I heard you rant about people saying 'Oh I do that/everyone does that/all children do that...' in relation to autism??

 

Bid

 

What?

ME?

NEVER! NEVER...EVER...EVER!!

 

Seriously, of course, that's absolutely right (well apart from the 'rant' - I never rant i just debate brilliantly ), and I wasn't suggesting that it was the 'same' (so sorry if I gave that impression) just that it is a continuation of the 'same' to a point that it becomes problematic for the person placed at that point on the continuum and/or others around him/her. It's like having 'second helpings' at dinner (not that i'd know about that, either, sylph like thing that I am ) - it doesn't mean the 'dinner' is different, just the amount involved. So, yes, I do rant debate brilliantly when people say things like 'oh everyone does that' because while yes, everyone does do it, they don't do it to the point that it disables them...

 

Old joke that (i think) might explain the point better than I can...

 

Ben got chucked out of the swimming baths today for peeing in the water

But every kid does that

Yes, but not from the top diving board...

[bid]

So, yes, I do rant debate brilliantly when people say things like 'oh everyone does that' because while yes, everyone does do it, they don't do it to the point that it disables them...

 

And I would add: '...or for the same reasons'.

 

Bid

Edited April 13, 2008 by bid

[baddad]

And I wouldn't

[bid]

 

Edited April 14, 2008 by bid

[Shnoing]

Hmm...this really interests me, Bid....Its one of the issues that keeps coming up during meetings re my son.... I believe that this is why, when he has a meltdown, it is so intense. That what is happening NOW for him, is the only thing that he can 'see'? For instance, if he's had a lovely day, pottering at the beach, and then some 'orrible brat, say, kicks down the sandcastle hes spent time on, he will have a meltdown, BIG stylee. But you can't reason with him that, look, we've had a fab day, this is one little blip... Or even, it'll be the same if we build it back up.... What is happening to him at the moment is all he can see, during meltdowns at any rate. Whereas, yes, Lijey would also go nuclear if someone kicked his sandcastle down, but he could be eased out of it by encouraging him to cast his mind back/forwards....

Obviously, I'm not talking about routine/obsession here, but the idea that the future is formless for him. That would terrify me, it really would....

 

I think that's part of that 'theory of mind problem'. With AS you have difficulties to put yourself into your future self. That has disadvantages as you mention yourself, but also advantages: you are able to concentrate better on what you're doing at the moment because there's nothing (in the future) that can distract you. It never gets boring because you don't imagine doing something more interesting (in the immediate future). And of course you cannot imagine why NTs would be terrified .

 

That means of course that you'll have to help your son forming plans for the future!