Advice on anti-bullying

[Mumble]

There are thousands of reasons why bullies bully but I hold the view that there are some genuinely vindictive people out there. Hitler and Jack the Ripper probably fit into this category.

I'm not sure - I don't think we should be writing anyone off from birth by saying they're born bad. If people are vindictive, they are likely to be vindictive for a reason - unfortunately that reason isn't often easy to see and the perpetrator themselves may even be unaware of it.

[baddad]

There are thousands of reasons why bullies bully but I hold the view that there are some genuinely vindictive people out there. Hitler and Jack the Ripper probably fit into this category.

I'm not sure - I don't think we should be writing anyone off from birth by saying they're born bad. If people are vindictive, they are likely to be vindictive for a reason - unfortunately that reason isn't often easy to see and the perpetrator themselves may even be unaware of it.

 

Canopus - I think possibly you are right, as i highlighted in my original post, but i think the percentage would be small and there would be 'non-environmental reasons' behind it anyway (i.e. the physiological/neurological differences I mentioned)... until there's a fullproof method of identifying that small percentage, though, I think we have to give all the benefit of the doubt and proceed accordingly, rather than making monsters out of all... And if/when we can identify those who do have 'other' reasons we should still do everything we can to use that knowledge to help them in any way we can, even if that includes isolation for their own protection or the protection of others. I have no idea of the details of hitler or Jack the rippers lives/upbringing/environment, so wouldn't speculate on why they were what they were - but if external factors were part of that mix then investigating treating and/or removing those factors would make better sense than duplicating them.

[smiley]

Smiley - does M feel physical pain? If he does maybe you could have some social story about what bullying is, and talk about getting hurt lots of times by the same person/people?

 

His response to pain is unusual Mumblie - we tried that route, but to him, someone brushing past him is far more painful that a punch in the tum iyswim. He ended up screaching 'are you a bully' when someone nudged him.........

 

Anyhow - sorry for thread hijack......... Back to the main topic

[jon79]

Appeasement doesnt work. just esculates over time gradually getting worse and worse. First its class room,,,then its outside school on street, then having last stand at own home.

Your not going to be able to study in class if continually having to prime onself for next attack. Education and learning becomes non-existent as all concentration has to be diverted to wacthing for incoming sneak blows or physicogical torture

If you were in street and suffered pyhiscal attack robbing false imprionsmnet( tied to tree)and verbal abuse would be police matter. and offender prosectued to the full extenct of the law.

This is no different here just because at school.

They must face upto justice in court proceeding. Youth offenders court.

Get solictor on to claim against the aggressors as well

Edited April 15, 2008 by jon79

[Kinda]

Jon79

 

While I sympathise with your views I can't agree, for me the "result" is an end to bullying, retribution and justice are secondary issues. I realise this is not everyones view and I understand that.

[Mumble]

When is bullying bullying and when is it not?

 

I was getting bullied by the other students I live with - as a group, mainly verbal taunts, flapping their hands round in front of me as if to hit me but without contact, stopping my passage down the corridor, anything basically that would have me running off in tears.

 

I eventually spoke to the hall manager and wrote a statement, and the managers 'dealt with it'. Not entirely sure what was said, although I do know 'reasons' were given for the actions - it's all open to interpretation isn't it...

 

Anyway, it stopped - for four days. The thing is now the students are acting individually and they're not doing what they were told not to do (so actually aren't doing anything wrong). They're just doing lots of really little low-level stuff:

• standing right up in front of me invading my personal space
• rolling their eyes at me
• shaking their head at me
• pushing in front of me in the breakfast queue
• taking anything (milk-jug, salt etc) I'm about to reach for at breakfast whether they need it or not

So all really low-level stuff that wouldn't seem significant at all. But it is really upsetting me, particularly coming on the back of the more verbal bullying. The trouble is, what can I or anyone do about it? There's no evidence, it's my inarticulate words against their excuses and if I say anything to the hall manager it will just seem like I'm being over-sensitive. Maybe I am?

[llisa32]

Hi <'>

 

I think it's irrelevant what the students got told not to do in terms of actual specific examples.

 

They were told not to bully you and they will be fully aware of what that meant - they now just think they are being clever..

 

I'm not sure why you say their actions wouldn't be significant? - it would annoy and upset the hell out of me and I'm sure most others. I think you should tell the halls manager - otherwise they win.

 

You tried to be nice - they didn't take their chance

 

Tis just my personal opinion <'>

[baddad]

When is bullying bullying and when is it not?

 

I was getting bullied by the other students I live with - as a group, mainly verbal taunts, flapping their hands round in front of me as if to hit me but without contact, stopping my passage down the corridor, anything basically that would have me running off in tears.

 

I eventually spoke to the hall manager and wrote a statement, and the managers 'dealt with it'. Not entirely sure what was said, although I do know 'reasons' were given for the actions - it's all open to interpretation isn't it...

 

Anyway, it stopped - for four days. The thing is now the students are acting individually and they're not doing what they were told not to do (so actually aren't doing anything wrong). They're just doing lots of really little low-level stuff:

• standing right up in front of me invading my personal space
• rolling their eyes at me
• shaking their head at me
• pushing in front of me in the breakfast queue
• taking anything (milk-jug, salt etc) I'm about to reach for at breakfast whether they need it or not

So all really low-level stuff that wouldn't seem significant at all. But it is really upsetting me, particularly coming on the back of the more verbal bullying. The trouble is, what can I or anyone do about it? There's no evidence, it's my inarticulate words against their excuses and if I say anything to the hall manager it will just seem like I'm being over-sensitive. Maybe I am?

 

 

It is bullying in one sense, but even they themselves would convince themselves it's 'teasing' - which it's not. Teasing is something that happens between friends. Teasing against people you know are intimidated by you is intimidation...

How to deal with it is difficult, because you are never going to stop this you're just going to 'shift the boundaries' - you'll end up in a situation where they are saying 'what? I can't even look at someone now', and you say 'but it's the way you look' and they'll say 'well I can't help the way I look' and......' ad infinitum...

The best advice is that horrible old advice that is so difficult in practice. Try to ignore it.

Another tack would be to play the game back, but that's even harder if your confidence is completely undermined and you are outgunned. It can work though, and the advantage over a completely passive response is that it might make them feel 'silly' or cause them to think about what they are doing... If you can gain one 'allie' (not friend - they can be completely indifferent to you in that way but just feel that what's being done to you is not 'okay' anymore) it can make a huge difference. My guess is there are likely to be one or two who already feel that way, but just need a bit of extra confidence to overcome their intimidation...

 

Playing the game back:

Don't engage with them. If your confidence is low they'll always win with 'smart' answers, shifted boundaries, and twisted logic. On paper, you'd run rings around them , on their territory they'll always have the advantage of 'size' (in the sense that you are already intimidated by them...)

Don't get angry. Angry 'justifies' their behaviour, even when your anger is fully justified. Twisted logic, but for some reason it works that way...

Try not to get upset. Much much easier said than done, but if you can buy the time to get away before letting your feelings out it robs them of their 'pay off'...

 

Ways of playing the game back if you can:

 

Invasion of body space: (quietly, calmly): could you step back a little please, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable. [any 'challenge' to that makes them look unreasonable. What sort of person would want to make another person feel uncomfortable? You could point that out if they do challenge, but only 'if', and only if your confident that you won't then end up playing their game again].

 

Rolling their eyes: (q, c): I'm sorry, do you have something in your eye? (if they say, 'no', you could add, 'only you keep rolling them and it looks rather odd/is very distracting') Again, if they admit why they are doing it it makes them look unreasonable, not you, and if they do admit it, you can make a 'reasonable' complaint on the basis of that admission - it takes it out of the 'teasing' arena once it's acknowledged. If they say something 'sarky' like 'I didn't know I was' you could reply 'Oh- perhaps you should see a doctor?' They will 'snigger' but feel foolish enough hopefully not to do it again (sniggering can be defensive too).

 

Shaking their heads: As above ('perhaps you should see the nit nurse' would be a good ending, but unfortuately that's 'humour' and puts you back in their territory...

 

Pushing in front: avoidance is the best bet here, as this is, by defintion a confrontation... If the canteen is staffed, i'd approach one of the staff and ask them if they could have a breakfast tray 'set up' that you could collect from a different point. Preferably with a member of staff who will tell them in no uncertain terms to go forth and multiply if they start bleating 'that's unfair, miss'...

 

Taking stuff from table: (q, c): after you with that, please! (again, any other response than giving you it is unreasonable, so either they brazen it out, revealing themselves in the process or pretend to not hear (pretty weak/embarrassing for them) or accede.

 

For my money that sort of 'aloof indifference' combined with a complete lack of acknowledgement that you know they are trying to upset you (they know you know, so while they might 'pretend' that your indifference is stupidity it'll actually spoil the fun of it all for them and make them feel silly) is the best defence.

Make it a role play if that works for you - become the icy and indifferent 'schoolmarm' who sees it all as beneath her...

This kind of 'pack' intimidation is all about group dynamics and status - it's not inherently 'nasty' (though it appears that way to the person on the receiving end) and, as i've said, none of the perps would see that what they are doing is intimidating (harmless fun, bit of teasing, having a joke with her - god that 'with' is sickening ). The people doing it are looking for a response that confirms their 'status' in the group. Indifference doesn't imply status, and revealing the true nature of their actions actually undermines status (nobody wants to be thought of as a bully, or a bullies friend).

Work round them. Get good grades. Have the LAST laugh - oh, and be better than them

- the last bit is incredibly easy, but sometimes hard to recognise

 

[Canopus]

I'm not sure - I don't think we should be writing anyone off from birth by saying they're born bad. If people are vindictive, they are likely to be vindictive for a reason - unfortunately that reason isn't often easy to see and the perpetrator themselves may even be unaware of it.

 

Canopus - I think possibly you are right, as i highlighted in my original post, but i think the percentage would be small and there would be 'non-environmental reasons' behind it anyway (i.e. the physiological/neurological differences I mentioned)... until there's a fullproof method of identifying that small percentage, though, I think we have to give all the benefit of the doubt and proceed accordingly, rather than making monsters out of all... And if/when we can identify those who do have 'other' reasons we should still do everything we can to use that knowledge to help them in any way we can, even if that includes isolation for their own protection or the protection of others. I have no idea of the details of hitler or Jack the rippers lives/upbringing/environment, so wouldn't speculate on why they were what they were - but if external factors were part of that mix then investigating treating and/or removing those factors would make better sense than duplicating them.

 

It took a lot of thinking and a lot of courage to say that there are genuinely vindictive people out there. It could be the result of genetics but there is no scientific evidence yet. Some criminologists think that a gene for a criminal streak also exists. If the perpetrator themself is unware they are a bully then they have a psychotic problem.

 

Hi canopus - I have edited your post as i was offended by the content and felt others would take similar offense. I will PM you when I get a moment to explain that. - BD

Edited April 16, 2008 by baddad

[Mumble]

Thanks BD - well it made me laugh whether it works or not. Trouble is, I can see myself doing/saying those things in my head, but it kinda doesn't work trying to put it into practise

 

Got to see the hall manager to 'update' on Friday - not exactly sure what I'll say yet so that a)I don't lie and feel uncomfortable and b)also don't make things worse by saying what is happening now. The 'shifting the boundaries' is exactly the problem I can see if I say anything.

 

I guess the easiest way would be to say that yes, the bullying I reported has stopped and if things get worse I'll let her know (what's happening now isn't technically worse).

 

Four months till they leave and counting ...

[hev]

steven was bullied in last year of primary,one day i happened to walk past the school and he was outside in the pouring rain crying i was devastated,i ran in the school and tried to get to the boys but they locked the doors to the classroom,im so glad they did looking back cos what would i have done,i dont really know,i hated them bullies at that time,steven is overweight and was bullied constantly really,its heartbreaking

then went he went to his special school after that,he was the bully,the other children were vunerable and he played on that,he cyber bullied a girl very badly at school on the schools pc,i kept ringing the mum,i was devastated,its a terrible thing when your child is a bully,i think at this school he is now they are all on the same level as him so i dont think he could get away with it,you get someone vunerable and steven picks up on it like a shot which i am ashamed about,i can fully understand how people have no sympathy for bullies cos when steve was being bullied i thought horrible thoughts about them boys,i didnt think a thing about their home life,whether they were special needs or anything then my son was the bully so i knew what the mother was probably thinking and i cant say i blamed her,

[jon79]

Jon79

 

While I sympathise with your views I can't agree, for me the "result" is an end to bullying, retribution and justice are secondary issues. I realise this is not everyones view and I understand that.

 

the result does lead to end of bullying. retribution and justice ends bullying as bully power base is removed. any more offences adds to there jail time, permenment tagging and exlucsion zones...not allowed to enter xx building otherwise instant jail.

not allowed within x meteres of victim. otherwise instant jail...tag alerts police if go too close to victim...and immedialtely jailed

 

consequences of there actions affects the offender lives...criminal record, will not gain employment,

while detained in cell or self imposed inprisonment due to settings of tag are powerless

[Canopus]

the result does lead to end of bullying. retribution and justice ends bullying as bully power base is removed. any more offences adds to there jail time, permenment tagging and exlucsion zones...not allowed to enter xx building otherwise instant jail.

not allowed within x meteres of victim. otherwise instant jail...tag alerts police if go too close to victim...and immedialtely jailed

 

consequences of there actions affects the offender lives...criminal record, will not gain employment,

while detained in cell or self imposed imprisonment due to settings of tag are powerless

 

I disagree with this as I'm opposed to incarcerating anybody under 18 years old. Incarcerating a bully will make the situation worse in the longer run as they will learn the tricks of the trade of crime from experienced hardened criminals and will almost certainly to turn to crime after release.

[baddad]

i was devastated,its a terrible thing when your child is a bully,i think at this school he is now they are all on the same level as him so i dont think he could get away with it,you get someone vunerable and steven picks up on it like a shot which i am ashamed about

 

Hi Hev <'> -

I think the reason S is changing is a bit more complex than everyone being on the same level as him... I think probably the school is an environment where he can see other options and strategies, and where they're able to take a step backwards to deal with stuff without all of the love and emotion confusing the situation (think about the stuff with N - how you feel about S (like you did back in primary) gets in the way of you doing the 'right' thing and backing N up. School don't have that emotional/historical barrier to contend with)... That's not a criticism of 'home' BTW, 'cos you are providing heaps of other stuff that he needs and that school could never provide. I think he's learning to appreciate too what he has got at home, 'cos not having people around does make you think about them more, rather than yourself, which is what you do when they are on tap...