What is mind games?

[xilef]

A friend of mine was rather angry with me and said i was rude and i play mind games, i didn't understand what that meant and she said it wasn't what I say but what I do.

What is playing mind games?

[warrenpenalver]

Mind games in the sense she is using means that she believes you are using complex social skills such as deception, trickery, manipulation etc to further an aim you are keeping a secret from her.

 

For example "mind games" are often used by ex-partners on divorcing to make the other person look bad with family, or simply just to be nasty. Or more worryingly such "mind games" will be used by the father to turn the kids against the mother or vice versa.

[xilef]

Mind games in the sense she is using means that she believes you are using complex social skills such as deception, trickery, manipulation etc to further an aim you are keeping a secret from her.

 

For example "mind games" are often used by ex-partners on divorcing to make the other person look bad with family, or simply just to be nasty. Or more worryingly such "mind games" will be used by the father to turn the kids against the mother or vice versa.

That sounds so scary. Haha. Me using complex social skills and manipulation, I have as much social skill as a padlock.

[warrenpenalver]

I know you may have social difficulties but generally thats what mind games are. You may be giving off the wrong non-verbal communication for the words or situation without knowing it. Hence she may think your suddnely being friendly then unfriendly and jump to conclusions.

 

 

Quite a comical situation this happened with me was with a gay work colleague who made the assumption i fancied him based on body language i was displaying. Im a hetrosexual male so didnt intend that message to be passed at all and was mortified when i found out as well as both of us being terribly embarassed!!

[Mumble]

I know you may have social difficulties but generally thats what mind games are. You may be giving off the wrong non-verbal communication for the words or situation without knowing it.

Is it possible to engage in mind games inactively? Is it a mind game if you're unaware you're doing it and not doing it for some type of personal gain?

[pearl]

Is it possible to engage in mind games inactively? Is it a mind game if you're unaware you're doing it and not doing it for some type of personal gain?

 

No.

[Tally]

I would disagree, I think it is possible to engage in mind games or manipulation without doing so deliberately or even consciously. Some autistic people feel superior because they believe they lack the social skills necessary to be manipulative. In fact, many autistic people will try to manipulate people and situations to enable them to feel in control. (Many non-autistic people also do so for the same reasons.) And sometimes people can make mistakes about someone and believe they are being manipulative when they are actually not.

[pearl]

In fact, many autistic people will try to manipulate people and situations to enable them to feel in control

 

but wouldnt you be aware you were doing that? Mumble was asking about playing mind games but being unaware of doing so. I do think you have to be aware of what you are doing to play mind games, or else it is something else - not sure what, & I could be wrong.

Edited May 14, 2008 by pearl

[pearl]

Here's what Wiki says.

 

passive aggressive behavior used specifically to demoralize the subject while making the aggressor look superior.

 

I think you'd have to be fully aware of what you were trying to do to be guilty of mind games.

[warrenpenalver]

Tally i still wouldnt call that mind games as its not malicious intent, slightly selfish maybe. Autistic people doing that kind of behaviour may lack the understanding of how thier behaviour is effecting others.

[Tally]

I think you can do it without being consciously aware of what you are doing and why.

 

Autistic people can learn that certain behaviour results in certain responses without understanding the thought process behind the other person's response, but they can still use that behaviour to control situations.

 

I don't think that being autistic means that you cannot be manipulative, because I have come across both autistic and non-autistic people who are highly manipulative.

[bid]

I would agree with Tally.

 

Boho

[Mumble]

Autistic people can learn that certain behaviour results in certain responses without understanding the thought process behind the other person's response, but they can still use that behaviour to control situations.

Although that still implies a conscious action, albeit understood in a linear fashion (if I do X, Y happens). There is still a conscious doing of X so that you get Y. I was just asking whether mind games (strictly defined) are possible without the 'doer' being aware (as in the original post)? I think that the fact they involve the mind suggests there needs to be an awareness and if that it's the case, then it's not a mind game, is it? That's of course different from being manipulative which, I agree, both ASD and NT peeps can do (but still requires awareness).

[Tally]

I think sometimes the awareness is unconscious. Obviously the brain has learned it somehow, but the person is not always consciously aware that certain actions lead to certain consequences.

 

And then other times, a person falsely accuses a person or mistakes their intentions.

[Mumble]

I think sometimes the awareness is unconscious.

Surely that's an oxymoron?

[Tally]

I don't know the technical terms, but you can definitely be aware of something without consciously knowing it. For example, my brain knows that if I continue to breathe at this rate, I will get enough oxygen. However, I could not tell you how many breaths per minute I need to take to get enough oxygen. My brain even makes these calculations while I am asleep. I am not consciously aware of how quickly I breathe, but my brain is somehow aware of it.

[Bard]

Ooohhh!

This is like all those interesting theological debates that used to happen in my house as a youngster, can it be a sin if there was no intent? Can one sin accidently?

See, I'm of the same mind as pearl and Mumble. I don't think you can play mind games in the true sense unless you intend to distress and upset the person, unless you are studying their reactions in order to judge what your next manipulative step will be.

Unless their distress is giving you the feed back that you want.

With some people, it is a part of their nature, they enjoy the ability to make others react in the way that they want to. Not kind or admirable, machiavellian really.

Other people can be accused of it if an individual feels manipulated, confused or bewildered by a response, and they think that the effect was created intentionally.

And as the spectrum is so varied, I would never presume to say that a person with an ASD can or can't play mind games. I'd have to see them in action and judge for myself.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Bard

[hev]

oxymoron?

ive nothing useful to add to this thread but i like that word,i might start using it,i might say to nick oh shut up you oxymoron sory have your thread back now

[pearl]

hev

 

bard

thats exactly what I was trying to say.

I think you need very good theory of mind indeed to play mind games - I'm NT & I'm useless at it. Like you said, that doesnt mean someone on the spectrum can't play mind games - but their theory of mind would have to be very well honed.

[Mumble]

Oxymoron - someone who pays for flavoured air in an oxygen bar ... :lol:

 

Tally - I think I mean more doing something to cause a reaction in others. Having the intent of causing a specific reaction (as opposed to doing something to see what happens) requires knowing what you are doing - you know what you are doing and you are doing it for a reason. When that required reaction in someone else is quite specific, you have to have the theory of mind (as Pearl says) to be able to think about how they will interpret your action and then respond.

[pearl]

My brain hurts now I'm out of practice with all this deep finking.

[Mumble]

My brain hurts now

I prescribe two jaffa cakes, half a pale cream sherry and a sit down.

[pearl]

I prescribe two jaffa cakes, half a pale cream sherry and a sit down.

 

Oooh thanks, will you be my GP?

I think a whole pale cream sherry is more appropriate though, its been a looong day

[Tally]

OK, this example might help explain how (I think) a person can play mind games without consciously realising.

 

I have a new colleague, L. We have may problems with his work. When I try to explain something he says, "OK," but carries on doing it wrong anyway. When you challenge him and say, "why are you still doing that? I have told you every day for the past week. Why are you still doing that?" he says that he does it because another member of staff (P) has told him to do it that way.

 

Now L may not be aware how manipulative this is. He probably does not recognise the harm it could cause. He probably feels that it is simply a good method of getting away with not doing anything properly, and no one will ever find out anyway.

 

I however, feel manipulated. I feel that, by blaming P for his own incompetence, L is creating divisions between the other staff on the department. I even feel irritated toward P. Even though I know P did not give these instructions, I know that he is very passive and that he is not correcting L's mistakes.

 

P may also feel manipulated and marginalised when he finds out that L is blaming him. It's possible L is telling P that I have given him the wrong instructions too, and P may feel manipulated in that respect also.

[pearl]

He sounds like he knows exactly what he is doing, though. In which case he is playing mind games.

If he really does not know whose instructions to follow & can't be bothered to find out, then thats irritating but its not mind games.

 

I think there is a real difference between being manipulative and playing mind games. The latter is much more sophisticated & done generally to make the other person feel got at, insecure, undermined etc. If all he wants to do is manipulate the situation so he can get away with being a lazy git then that isnt good but its by no means as destructive. Its about how he feels rather than how he can make you feel.