liability with a respite agency - help!

[Julieanne]

I wonder if anyone has been through the same thing or similar...

 

my son is lucky enough to have 10 hours respite care through a agency and his carer takes him out in her own car and agency pays for petrol ( they get funded by my local disablity team)

they are aware of my sons needs, how he can have outbursts, pinch, hit out at others...children & adults when frustrated, over excited or in a area where he feels complete overload and sometimes for no reason whatsoever ( typical autism! )

 

whilst she was driving back from this play area today, she says jay broke her car stereo ( he was sat in the front, she has a 2 seater car) which i could argue isnt appropriate as if jay had a real outburst this may cause them to crash and ideally he should be in the back of a car. the staff are expected to provide their own cars with a business insurance which is provided by the respite agency, although the excess is �250 this stereo is worth �179.99 and would apparently push the carers premiums up, so when i was being told all this by phone about a hour ago, i got the impression we would have to pay. i said well shouldnt you as a agency with vunruble children/adults being in your cars be covered by this type of thing, and i was told that jay was the ''first''to do this ( yeah right!!!)

 

she said she didnt know if there was a insurance to cover this ( she is a manager!!! i know - laughable isnt it that they dont ###### know!!!) and she was to get in touch with the headquarters to ask them, but i may not know for a few days.

 

im not trying to shirk my responsibilities but i wonder legally where do i stand on this? i cant afford to pay that kind of money out and im going to citizen advice tommorow morning to get more help...

 

anyone else been in same position or know anything about this legally wise?

 

thanks for any help! im desperate!!!

 

oh btw in the time allocated with my son she on her way back went to get a quote for her precious stereo, and that was time for my son in his respite, so he lost so many minutes being sat in the car while she got a damn quote!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

 

Julie xx

[Tally]

the excess is �250 this stereo is worth �179.99 and would apparently push the carers premiums up

I think you have a right to ask exactly what this information has to do with you . . .

They would be silly to claim when they have to pay the full value anyway, so it is not going to push their premiums up, it is going to cost the agency �179.99. In actual fact, unless the stereo is very new, a stereo of equal spec is likely to cost less than that now.

 

I would have thought that, whilst in the care of a respite agency, he is their responsibility. Did you ever sign an agreement saying that you would pay for any damage he caused while in their care? I wouldn't have thought so, but it's worth having a check through any paperwork you have.

 

If they make any demands for money, make sure you get everything in writing and keep copies.

 

As for getting a quote with your son in the car, not only is that wasting the time he has with them, it is really rude!

 

Hope the CAB can help you tomorrow!

[baddad]

Coming at it from a different angle, if he was in a friends car and broke their stereo would you feel they should accept the cost personally?

As a care worker I had my car insured to enable me to transport clients - this actually added next to nothing to the premium, but enabled me to make trips with clients (enhancing their opportunities) I wouldn't otherwise have been able to make, both within and outside of my normal working hours. It was common practise then (don't know if it still is), and I'm fairly certain that if one of the clients had broken my stereo the parents/carers of that client would have been keen to put that right so I wasn't personally out of pocket...

Respite is slightly different, but if Ben broke something like a CD player or telly at the home of his respite carers I'd just replace it, claiming on my home insurance if necessary.

If this is a voluntary carer (or someone who receives a token payment) through something like 'link' as most carers arranged through SS tend to be he/she would not have 'business' insurance to cover this.

TBH I think the fact that he/she has a two seater car is a bit irrelevant: If you were concerned about the safety aspect that's something you should have raised before (unless this was his first trip out with them) - it seems a bit unfair to 'argue it isn't appropriate' after the event.

Looking at it from the carer's POV, if i was doing this on a voluntary basis for little or no reward and ended up footing the bill myself, I'd think twice about doing it again.

Thinking about the expense, I know it must hit hard, but do you receive DLA for your son? If so, this would seem a quite legitimate thing to spend it on, as respite for you and trips out for him certainly fall within the boundaries of providing for his needs.

 

Of course, I'm only going on what you've said and what i know of respite services/support organisations in my area. If the situation were markedly different, and the carer operates the respite service as a business, or is paid full childminder/care worker rates by the agency or Social Services then she should have cover for such eventualities drawn into her business plan and her agreement with the people purchasing the service from her - which would take the onus off of you.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

[Julieanne]

Coming at it from a different angle, if he was in a friends car and broke their stereo would you feel they should accept the cost personally?

As a care worker I had my car insured to enable me to transport clients - this actually added next to nothing to the premium, but enabled me to make trips with clients (enhancing their opportunities) I wouldn't otherwise have been able to make, both within and outside of my normal working hours. It was common practise then (don't know if it still is), and I'm fairly certain that if one of the clients had broken my stereo the parents/carers of that client would have been keen to put that right so I wasn't personally out of pocket...

Respite is slightly different, but if Ben broke something like a CD player or telly at the home of his respite carers I'd just replace it, claiming on my home insurance if necessary.

If this is a voluntary carer (or someone who receives a token payment) through something like 'link' as most carers arranged through SS tend to be he/she would not have 'business' insurance to cover this.

TBH I think the fact that he/she has a two seater car is a bit irrelevant: If you were concerned about the safety aspect that's something you should have raised before (unless this was his first trip out with them) - it seems a bit unfair to 'argue it isn't appropriate' after the event.

Looking at it from the carer's POV, if i was doing this on a voluntary basis for little or no reward and ended up footing the bill myself, I'd think twice about doing it again.

Thinking about the expense, I know it must hit hard, but do you receive DLA for your son? If so, this would seem a quite legitimate thing to spend it on, as respite for you and trips out for him certainly fall within the boundaries of providing for his needs.

 

Of course, I'm only going on what you've said and what i know of respite services/support organisations in my area. If the situation were markedly different, and the carer operates the respite service as a business, or is paid full childminder/care worker rates by the agency or Social Services then she should have cover for such eventualities drawn into her business plan and her agreement with the people purchasing the service from her - which would take the onus off of you.

 

Hope that's helpful

 

 

 

Hello to both of you...i do see both points of you, and they are both valid and very thought provoking.

I do not mind paying for it, i think what troubled me was that if this kind of thing keeps happening and the agency doesnt have some kind of insurance in place then it could be a very expensive and stressful time for my son to recieve respite when it is meant to be a ''break'' for us!

thanks so much for the replies, i appreciate you replying. I guess it is a hazard of having a special needs child.

I will be having a word about having my son in her car whilst she gets a quote though as this ate into his respite care time that he deserves!!

hugs & thanks again Julie xx

[KateBall]

It is not your responsibility at all. The agency should have insurance to cover loss or damage and if not then the agency legally should fork out to their employee. In turn if the agency has some sort of terms of business between you and them that says that you are responsible for damage to their property then you might be liable under that but I wonder how much attention was being paid to him at the time to allow him to have broken it. Did he indeed break it - how do you know? With appropriate supervision would he have been prevented from doing so?

[Nic m]

hi Julieanne,

 

I hope this gets cleared up quickly for you.

I do not imagine that any organised respite service would allow a worker (paid or voluntary) to take a child out without being insured.

The very fact you have received this very precious resource suggests you need it.

I do think there will be a budget somewhere for the cost of the radio.

I would not be paying it, and i would also be asking why the quotes were being sought during respite time, especially when it should have been clear your child was distressed.this is not appropriate at all.

Good luck with CAB tomorrow.

 

Nicola

[stressedmumto2]

I would of also though that the agency would have some kind of insurance which would cover the cost of it. My son displays very challenging behaviour at times and this has now given me some thought as to what would happen if he were to damage a carers car.

 

Hope you get something sorted at the CAB tomorrow <'>

[smiley]

They should have public liability insurance and such like, all organisations are required to do so - you should not be made to pay for it.

 

Offering to pay, or giving a 'donation' towards the cost is one thing, for them to be calling you is quite another.

 

If it becomes a sticking issue - you can speak to your local support group / area inco / SS / etc, about finding the money from a charitable organisation.

 

I would hate for this to put of the carer - but in the same way, i would hate this to put off families who are already struggling financially, and who desperately need the break.

 

HTH

[lorryw]

Hi Julie,

I presume the respite is funded via direct payments from your Social Service department who should have adviced you about insurance etc. I hope if this is the case that you were not simply handed the money, given a list of carers and left to get on with things. I would get in touch with your local disability team and explain what has happened.

Your post raises the issues of safety and liability which Councils in there rush to push forward with the "personalisation" agenda have overlooked.

[baddad]

hi Julieanne,

 

I hope this gets cleared up quickly for you.

I do not imagine that any organised respite service would allow a worker (paid or voluntary) to take a child out without being insured.

Nicola

 

 

Hi Nic -

One of the most popular/widely used 'respite' resources in my area offers accommodation to foreign Gap year students in return for them offering respite services. Several years ago I personally complained to this service when I learnt that two 17 year old girls (one Australian one German) were spending almost all of their weekends nursing a bedridden, dying elderly woman who had been discharged from hospital with no other respite/convalescence services available.

Another service links families to voluntary sector 'friends' who take a child out for a few hours per month. Both of these services are administrated by registered charities who depend on SS for a large chunk of the funding. Obviously I don't know the particulars of any liability insurance the charity carries, but in all probability they, and the services (CDT/SS) funding and using them will have kept their own responsibility to the miniumum required by law. In care work generally this practice implies a huge amount of responsibility on the person delivering care and very little on the part of the people administrating it.

I'm sure laws have changed since I was working in care, but I suspect they'll have changed in ways that demand even more 'safety checks' and place even more responsibility on volunteers than on the services recruiting them. Whether that extends to liability insurance or not, I don't know, but if it does or doesn't I'm sure there's a great deal of 'goodwill' involved.

The truth, from my own experience finding respite resources, appears to be that 'agency' type professional respite/child care resources are far too expensive for Social Services' budget, and remain in the private sector. The number of (i.e.) foster carers that remain on the local authority's (rather than an agencies) books is ever-dwindling, because they are less rewarded and less protected, and the clients that social services refer are increasingly more demanding in terms of support needs - a catch 22 of dwindling provision. Sometimes a LA will buy in agency type private resources, but always as a last resort and invariably after they have been directed to do so by some other 'watchdog' committee or similar pressure...

As I say, none of that may be the case in this situation, and there may be specific insurance to protect both the carer involved and the agency recruiting her from liability...

 

One other thought: Is this car stereo the model fitted by the car manufacturer - a 'special edition'?It's the only way I can think these days of a CD Player costing that amount of money to replace... if it isn't then a new model from the same manufacturer offering the same or improved features would probably be available at a much lower cost... additionally, we're only talking about the 'header' unit here, i guess, or even replacement knobs/fascia and �180 quid for that seems really extortionate...

I'd ask him/her for the stereo's model number and do some research of my own, 'cos garages just love the words 'insurance claim'...

 

[NikkiSmith]

I had a kind of similar situation with my son going out with a respite carer for 8hrs each week (like you it was arranged by another organisation who paid her hourly fee and mileage and we paid expenses.)

 

She took him to m&s to do her shopping and my little darling stuck his foot out of the major buggy into the lovely pyramid-type display of bottles of red wine......

 

Luckily nobody had to pay up, but I technically, he was in her care and therefore her responsibility, but the organisation weren't happy when they thought they would be liable for the costs! I certainly wouldn't have wanted to cough up for that lot!

 

Now we have public liability insurance for him and his carers (via direct payments) which we haven't needed yet!

 

I know none of this really helps you or answers your questions, sorry!

 

Nikki.

[pookie170]

Go online and get the stereo for her, if you feel inclined to pay up. We recently bought OH's Dad a car cd player/radio, and got one for �60- if we'd went into the national, multi-franchised, orange n black logo'd shop and bought it though, it wudda been full price! And you can still opt to pay for the fitting, if you desire, though this is under �30 and if the carer is able to pay for this bit herself and is willing to, she can arrange that herself.

 

Hope this is helpful, and that the situation is resolved soon.

 

Esther x

[Nic m]

Hi baddad

 

I know there will always be gaps in the system but it would be one of the basics of setting up an organisation i think.

I worked in care for a long time and continue to volunteer for my daughter's swimming club, and have been on the management committee for a few clubs and it should be part of the registration process.

If SS fund the charities then they will be insured.

One of the things i think is very unfair on volunteers is i feel that they can be exploited and also not made aware that roles and responsibilities for them are very similar to a paid employee.

I don't know how it works in other local authorities but, you would not be allowed to take a child in your car here without being properly insured, (paid or voluntary).

 

If however an agency has managed to set up without doing this, then Julieanne i would be even more concerned that my child was in their care if they managed to set up without even these basics in place, and i would be having a field day with a massive complaint heading their way along with one to the local SS and also the local authority for not regulating it properly.

 

Good luck

 

Nicola

[lil_me]

If you're going to replace it I agree, get the model number, in fact if you are replacing it, ask for the old unit (as in reality it's yours) see if you can get it fixed first.

 

I would also be inclined to request a different care worker if someone left my son in a car unattended.

Edited August 23, 2008 by lil_me

[Kazzen161]

I wonder how much attention was being paid to him at the time to allow him to have broken it. Did he indeed break it - how do you know? With appropriate supervision would he have been prevented from doing so?

 

I agree with this.

 

Can she prove it wasn't broken anyway? What damage did he do? How was he able to do so much damage to it? Can it not be repaired?

 

Sometimes your contents or buildings insurance includes public liability insurance.

[baddad]

I agree with this.

 

Can she prove it wasn't broken anyway?

 

I disagree with this. Questioning liability in this situation seems reasonable. Suggesting the respite carer is deliberately lying for personal gain, seems, IMO, incredibly unreasonable. Save taking a complete inventory of the vehicle prior to taking the child out I can't imagine any way it would be possible to 'prove' this, but if you mistrust the respite carer that much, should you really be handing your child over to them?

[cmuir]

Hi

 

If your son was in her care, I personally feel that it was her responsibility to ensure that your son was meddling with something that perhaps he shouldn't of been. If it was accidental damage that's a difficult one - I still don't think a parent should be made to pay the bill especially when not present.

 

I'd be a bit concerned that if some kind of incident happened (god forbid!), would the care worker concerned be clear on her responsibilities or would she back out (bearing in mind, she's the adult, your son's the child)?

 

Hope you get this resolved.

 

C.

Edited August 24, 2008 by cmuir

[baddad]

Hi

 

If your son was in her care, I personally feel that it was her responsibility to ensure that your son was meddling with something that perhaps he shouldn't of been.

 

Hi C muir/all - speaking personally, my son has broken things in other people's houses and places like supermarkets etc. It hasn't been deliberate, just the kind of thing that happens around a child with hyperactivity, intense curiosity and dyspraxia... Without having eyes in my backside and at least six pairs of hands and/or keeping him tethered in public most of these things would have been pretty much impossible to prevent. As it is, I think I've done a better than average job at minimising these kinds of accidents and certainly wouldn't expect anyone who wasn't living it 24/7 to be able to intuitively do any better. In supermarkets etc (one of the most memorable incidents was when i went into a hi-fi shop to buy a replacement stylus for my record player and ben thought the silvered 'dome' at the centre of a pair of �400 speakers was a push button) I've always figured it to be a business insurance risk, but in private situations I've always assumed responsibility...

Trying to think of an example, Ben broke another child's glasses at school.. I could have said it was the schools fault for not monitoring him properly, I could have said it was the other child's fault for antagonising him, I could have questioned whether the glasses were actually damaged before Ben grabbed them. I didn't do any of those things, I just did what i hope any parent would do in those circumstances - accepted responsibility for my child's actions because he isn't/wasn't able to...

I've always hoped when other kids have damaged ben's stuff that the parents of that child would respond in a similar way. I've been disappointed about 50% of the time.