exclusion and ASDs

[BusyLizzie100]

When is it not OK to exclude a child with an ASD?

 

I ask because I have to make DS1's secondary application soon and it's b***dy tough. One secondary SENCO said to me today, when I mentioned that he had kicked his LSA last week, 'Well, he'd be out for that - excluded for a day'. There has to be one rule for all, she said, and that he would have to learn.

 

I feel that this kind of behaviour (which is rare for him at school) arises as a result of his SEN - in this case there had been a sudden change in timetable which meant he was not going to do the lesson he liked, and he got very angry. The LSA tried to calm him, suggesting they go out of the class, have a walk etc but he was having none of it and kicked her. To my knowledge he was not disciplined.

 

BUT, this secondary SENCO takes a different view.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Lizzie

[Diane]

Hi Lizzie,

 

I know I am not going to be able to give you a water tight answer. My expereince has been that secondary schools are a law unto themselves. I know of some who would take the fact that the child has an ASD into consideration and others who take the line one rule for all. The argument being that the other children would think that they could behave like that as well blah de blah de blah.

 

I would like to see secondary schools educating their pupils and staff to understand that as individuals we are all different and therefore there are times when what is right for one pupil is not right for another. I personally feel that they should as part of there learning be taught about what it means to have ASD, ADHD along with other conditions that are seen in school.

 

I understand where you are with this it is a place I and many others have been. It's not nice.

[baddad]

Hi bizzy lizzie -

 

I'm sort of with the secondary school on this one, but think each case has to be taken on individual merits... One rule is fair enough, and firm discipline/sanctions/boundaries are a must for our kids, but one approach isn't enough, and a child shouldn't be sanctioned if it is obvious that the approach hasn't been personalised to take the kids needs into account. If he breaks a rule after reasonable measures have been taken to ensure his understanding of the rules and the consequences of breaking them, then any disciplinary action should be across the board.

In the scenario you outlined, sudden change in routines might not be liked, and there could be additional stress involved for a kid with ASD who was particularly routine orientated (the million dollar question: would any change in routine trigger this response, or only a change that impacted on a personal preference - if the latter, it is not specifically related to his SEN - it's an inappropriate response to being disappointed...) but in any event the response is totally inappropriate and it is a social necessity that the child learn not to respond in that way.

 

[JsMum]

The biggest reason J couldnt cope in a mainstream secondary was because of the constant CHANGES J encountered, change of classroom for each subject, change of Teacher for each subjet and then even different children in the subject due to level abilities and that for many children even NT defo fluctuate, so you might have an NT child in top set for Maths but be in bottom set for English.

 

Changes in Secondary happen a lot more often too, due to the size and quantity of Children and the rooms available, often children would trapes to D block for maths but at mins notice a change had accured and it was now in another classroom.

 

So changes are going to be accuring a lot more in secondary, meaning if this is a Trigger in primary school, its certainly going to be more frequent so do bare this in mind, in some schools there is units that are attatched and they can remain in the same classroom all day, but in the secondary school here it did not have this, unless you became anxois or distress and it was for a limited period.

 

I understand that the senco is protecting her TA staff, as children will be older, bigger and physically stronger as they develop throw the year 7,8,9. I know I dont like Jay kicking me as it hurts, but excluding a child with sen will not help him develop coping skills to cope with the feelings of anger and frustration that is a symptom of a developmental disorder.

 

I witnessed a lot of SEN children in the isolation room because there was not the right provisions provided in a mainstream enviroement.

 

JsMum

[CEJesson]

The LSA had done the right thing in taking him out of the class, but I agree that kicking the LSA is unacceptable regardless of whether your child doesn't have that sort of behaviour very often. With all my problems (didn't kick an LSA but did throw chairs/books etc at people) I didn't get suspended but did have detentions and meetings with deputy heads. I'm not trying to be severe, its just the 'have to learn' principal works only so far, and this situation is in the 'works so far' boundary if you get what I am saying.

 

What I would like to know is has your child done a similar thing before?

[BusyLizzie100]

The LSA had done the right thing in taking him out of the class, but I agree that kicking the LSA is unacceptable regardless of whether your child doesn't have that sort of behaviour very often. With all my problems (didn't kick an LSA but did throw chairs/books etc at people) I didn't get suspended but did have detentions and meetings with deputy heads. I'm not trying to be severe, its just the 'have to learn' principal works only so far, and this situation is in the 'works so far' boundary if you get what I am saying.

 

What I would like to know is has your child done a similar thing before?

 

This is the first time he's done anything like this at school (so far as i know), but we get loads of aggressive behaviour at home and it's been building for some time. He's a very anxious child and his anxieties have been growing and growing to the extent that the psychologist at CAMHS who has been working with him for over two years referred him to the psychiatrist in June, who immediately put him on anti-depressants. When his anxieties overwhelm him, he can be quite aggressive and totally hysterical.

 

To date school has not seen much of this, because he masks it at school, but school has played a big part in raising his anxieties. Basically, he appears to be coping fine and achieving adequately but is at crisis point inside. He was on the verge of school refusal and frankly still is, although the meds are starting to help. School does not see that he has any significant needs, although they are starting to notice his anxiety, but without the meds I doubt he would be in school at the moment. He's in Y6, so nearly 11.

 

He does not have a STatement but has about 4 hrs a week with an LSA. We feel that his needs should be thoroughly and appropriately assessed and acknowledged in the form of a STatement but the ed psych etc are pessimistic about whether he'll get one, because he allegedly has no educational need.

 

So we come to the secondary visits; every SENCO I have spoken to says that without a Statement they will not be able to offer any additional support - this is Hertfordshire where we have delegated funding - SEN funding goes straight to the school and they have to manage it, but the message we are getting is that there is barely enough money to cover the Statemented children. We have been told that he would not even get the level of support that he currently gets at primary.

 

IT's a huge worry - here is a vulnerable child with mental health issues who is not finding mainstream primary at all easy yet is 'achieving' academically because he is soooooooooo bright - so far. If things get too much for him and he ends up out of school, then that's obviously going to affect his achievement (possibly quite a lot!).

 

so what's it going to be like for him at secondary! We haven't got a crystal ball, so we don't know for sure. But we know that the transition from primary to secondary is a big leap for any child so we need to be prepared for how it's likely to affect him.

 

And the messages we are getting from our secondary schools - only mainstream, no units - are that he will find it tough but he will have to get on with it. And, as this SENCO said today, he will be excluded if he kicks his LSA.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he should get away with kicking his LSA (or anyone!) at primary OR secondary, and it's worrying that the primary didn't address it one way or another.

 

Yes, he needs to learn that he can't do it, but it needs to be the kind of learning that he can take on board - that he can access and is meaningful for him. Yes, he needs sanctions, and rewards too, and they need to appropriate for him. On this particular occasion he couldn't cope with the emotional upset of the change and couldn't control his feelings. He is most definitely NOT a naughty child, tries desperately to do the right thing and fit in and therein lies the cause of a lot of his anxiety - he's running out of resources and just can't do it any longer.

 

Today the SENCO's view of 'one rule for all' and exclusion filled me with horror. If he were trying to burn down the school for a laugh, OK fair enough, but this lashing out was born out of his SEN - not just because the change impacted on his personal preference - and the message I got today was that this would make no difference to how the situation would be dealt with. with that kind of attitude, he's going to be out of school faster than I had even imagined!!!

 

So, I feel very

[JsMum]

Sorry if I may sound clueless, but I thought a statement is given to children with a learning difficulty, is Autism not under the Learning difficulty banding, and does he not have difficulties in his Emotional, mental and social development, surely a child with Autism, Aspergers Syndrome, ADHD can still be awarded a statement due thier Learning Difficulties even if they are reaching certain levels in the curriculum, J gained Level 3 in Maths and Science in yr 6 yet he has significant difficulties due to his learning difficulties. J has a statement too, and when we were fighting for a specialist school they increased his statement to full time in mainstream, though this still didnt work due to his significant Anxiety and his increasingly aggressive behaviour both at home and school and we have been successful in accessing educational provisions in a specialist school.

 

so can he really not be assessed for a statement if he has ASDs and Mental health difficulties.???????

 

JsMum

Edited October 10, 2008 by JsMum

[julieann]

so can he really not be assessed for a statement if he has ASDs and Mental health difficulties.???????

 

JsMum

 

Hi J's mum,

 

Hertfordshire L A seem to be a law unto themselves. At the moment they are persuading parents that their childs needs can be better met at SA+ and that a statement is not neccessary. Parents of already statemented pupils are being told that their children will get more help in school if they drop the statement and go on SA+.

 

Julieann ( LSA secondary school in Hertfordshire)

[bid]

I've been thinking a lot about this thread...just trying to look at it from a different angle

 

I think you will find exclusion for any physical attack on staff to be the norm in a mainstream secondary school, and I think that is appropriate. Staff aren't universally trained in positive handling techniques in mainstream, and shouldn't get hurt at work.

 

In a special school all staff are routinely trained in positive handling techniques. And while we shouldn't get hurt at work either, we accept when we take the job that there will be a certain level of challenging behaviour...BUT, we also know that we will be appropriately trained, and that we have the back up of highly trained staff should anything happen....and appropriate sanctions are always put in place for the child.

 

I've had plenty of 'low level' physical attacks at work (pinching, slaps, etc), but I've also been really badly attacked...it is very frightening to be on the receiving end of a physical attack, even when you are trained to respond appropriately, so I can't begin to imagine how someone feels when they don't have any training. Again, at a special school we are thoroughly debriefed and supported because it really shakes your confidence...and then you need to be able to work with the same child again as though nothing has happened.

 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that any comments shouldn't be leveled at the secondary school SENCO, it should be leveled at the LEA who think 'one size should fit all'.

 

Bid

[BusyLizzie100]

so can he really not be assessed for a statement if he has ASDs and Mental health difficulties.???????

 

JsMum

 

Well his levels are good, so he won't meet the criteria set by Herts LEA under the ASD category. As for his mental health, the meds seem to be working, so what's our problem, according to the ed psych manager - he's in school, there's no anxiety at school (!) and his levels are good so there's no problem. Er, excuse me, this child was close to break down last term and the meds only just caught him from going over the edge in time.

 

I agree with Julieann about Herts, especially from what I've seen and heard and experienced myself. And Bid, I agree with your comment about levelling comments at the LEA's 'one size fits all' stance, ultimately it comes down to being led from above.

 

However, I've spoken to several SENCOs over the last fortnight and they all seem to take different viewpoints and see inclusion differently - well, those that have agreed to talk with me, anyway. This particular SENCO said a lot about the school that sounded good, but it was her black and white view of behaviour and exclusion that worried me.

 

I also asked her about PE - DS2 hates football (the social skills element, poor co-ordination, noise, everyone shouting, milling about..) and how they would approach a child who refused to do it. She said he'd just have to. I asked how they would get him to do it, and she said well he'd just have to. He'll have to learn to get on for his adult life, so he just has to get on with it now, she said. I just wanted to know how they would support him to do that, again it sounded very black and white. I know my son, and I think that is precisely the attitude that will see him refusing to go to school - not because he's ill-tempered, but because he's scared and anxious and wants to feel safe and that people understand him.

 

I don't want to wrap him up in cotton wool, but I don't want him to break down either.

 

[purplehaze]

Hello, My son (14 ASD) has been excluded for lots of different reasons (throwing books, slamming doors etc), loads of times. I'm always being told he has to follow the rules-the problem is with a lot of our children it's harder for them. My son has a statement for 20 hrs and since yr 7 things have just got worse-until now really-because I have called a interim review-things are turning around.

 

You need to choose a school that has a lot of experience with children with ASD-ask what strategies they use-timeout cards/room, visuals etc. Goodluck X

[JsMum]

what I dont get about SA+ OR Statementing is that really Jays was only really on SA+ was his behaviour and emotional needs, speech and language, he didnt make any progress in the past two years even with a statement and that again is down to the Behaviour, social, communication and emotional special needs, J is a bright boy, he has level 3s, but he also has special needs, I would look throw your sons IEPs and look at what support is in place now and compair it when he goes to secondary, from what your saying how the school manages special needs children it all depends on the level of SEN register, so he gets some lsa time now, but in secondary under the new delagation rules he wont qualify any, yet in transition he is going to require much more imput, especially in a secondary school, yet it looks like for your son, its actually been reduced, if the transition is not well planned and foreseen behaviours managed then it is sadly going to fail.

 

JsMum

[Flora]

I have to say I'm with the secondary school here too. Violence, whatever the reason or underlying difficulty, should always be dealt with. Every person, regardless of their SEN should be taught not to use violent behaviour, no matter what the cause of the outburst is. What happens when that child becomes a teenager? Bigger feet, bigger legs, bigger kick?

 

I don't think there is a single situation that I can think of when the use of violence shoult not trigger a disciplinary consequence. Even for those with severe learning difficulties sanctions appropirate to the child's cognitive ability can be used.

 

Flora

 

ps... even special schools, who are well prepared for all sorts of behaviour, will still impose sanctions

Edited October 12, 2008 by Flora

[BusyLizzie100]

I have to say I'm with the secondary school here too. Violence, whatever the reason or underlying difficulty, should always be dealt with. Every person, regardless of their SEN should be taught not to use violent behaviour, no matter what the cause of the outburst is. What happens when that child becomes a teenager? Bigger feet, bigger legs, bigger kick?

 

I don't think there is a single situation that I can think of when the use of violence shoult not trigger a disciplinary consequence. Even for those with severe learning difficulties sanctions appropirate to the child's cognitive ability can be used.

 

Flora

 

ps... even special schools, who are well prepared for all sorts of behaviour, will still impose sanctions

 

Well, hang on... I'm not saying that such a situation should not result in disciplinary consequence and sanctions, as I've previously said, but you raise a very important point, Flora - 'sanctions appropriate to the child's cognitive ability' - does that include their emotional and social ability, too?

 

I'll say it again: what alarmed me about this particular SENCO was her blanket, black and white approach. I agree, every person, regardless of their SEN, should be taught not to use violent behaviour, but it has to be done in a way that that person can understand. Excluding a child from school who doesn't want to be there anyway is not going to teach him the lesson that was intended. Other ways and means.

[jlp]

I think the school with that SENCO sounds worrying Lizzie. Apart from the exclusion for a physical assault issue, it's her comments about how he'd 'just have to' with regard to football with apparently no understanding or awareness of the need for support to enable him to do this.

[jlp]

PS My 5 year old (Reception) is excluded from school when he hurts other children and he's never there (I've just worked out he's been in for 3 days out of the last 10). While I completely agree that there need to be sanctions and the staff and children need to be kept safe, no matter how cross with ds#2 we are and how boring we make it when he's at home - it's still to his mind better than school.

[Flora]

Well, hang on... I'm not saying that such a situation should not result in disciplinary consequence and sanctions, as I've previously said, but you raise a very important point, Flora - 'sanctions appropriate to the child's cognitive ability' - does that include their emotional and social ability, too?

 

I'll say it again: what alarmed me about this particular SENCO was her blanket, black and white approach. I agree, every person, regardless of their SEN, should be taught not to use violent behaviour, but it has to be done in a way that that person can understand. Excluding a child from school who doesn't want to be there anyway is not going to teach him the lesson that was intended. Other ways and means.

 

Sorry Lizzie, I think my post has upset you and it wasn't meant to.

 

I understand where you're coming from when you say that excluding a child who doesn't want to be there isn't going to viewed by that child as a punishment; however, the parents can make it so by supporting the exclusion and making sure the day isn't spent having fun. Let me explain with an experience with my own son; he has always hated school, and when he started his special school last term he hated that too. The reasons he hated it weren't the same as why he'd hated mainstream, suffice to say he just didn't want to go! I told him if he carried on not cooperating etc that there was a real risk he'd lose his place at the school because the placement had failed. His eyes lit up when I said this, so I followed it up with an explanation of how much his life at home would change if he had to be home educated as a result of this placement failing. He didn't like the sound of that to the extent that his attitude towards this new school changed virtually over night. Concluding that if a child's day at home due to an exclusion is devoid of any kind of reward (perceived or otherwise) then they will quickly learn to view that exclusion as a punishment they'd prefer to avoid!

 

Flora

[BusyLizzie100]

Sorry Lizzie, I think my post has upset you and it wasn't meant to.

 

No Flora, you haven't upset me. In fact, i agree with you. But I still think that starting out with this 'he'll just have to do it like the others do it' attitude is not going to work for DS1. He needs a bit more support than that.

[JsMum]

No Flora, you haven't upset me. In fact, i agree with you. But I still think that starting out with this 'he'll just have to do it like the others do it' attitude is not going to work for DS1. He needs a bit more support than that.

 

 

I think from the sounds of the senco and her attitude of he has to, will be making me wobble too, I think researching a few more schools may be needed, or look into more specialist schools.

 

I dont think you have much faith in this school throw the way they insist on one fits all policies.

 

good luck with your continued search for a secondary school, and a more supportive senco.

 

JsMum

[baddad]

'he'll just have to do it like the others do it' attitude is not going to work for DS1. He needs a bit more support than that.

 

But part of the problem is that every single parent of a child with special needs will view their child as the exception to the rule. And any child who does respond to the sanctions is written off as not being an exception to the rule. Sorry, if a child kicks adults and has the capacity to understand that that is not acceptable and that the response to that action will be X, Y or Z, then X, Y or Z should be the response. If it isn't, no boundary exists and it completely undermines every other piece of behavioural management that you try to enact with that child.

Actually, 'he's not going to do it like the others do it' is a huge negative assumption, but the chances are he won't do it like the others do it if the main carers actually endorse the attitude that he doesn't need to, is incapable of, or is somehow exempt from all of the usual rules. That's human nature, and has nothing to do with SEN, autism or anything else.

 

[JsMum]

But part of the problem is that every single parent of a child with special needs will view their child as the exception to the rule. And any child who does respond to the sanctions is written off as not being an exception to the rule. Sorry, if a child kicks adults and has the capacity to understand that that is not acceptable and that the response to that action will be X, Y or Z, then X, Y or Z should be the response. If it isn't, no boundary exists and it completely undermines every other piece of behavioural management that you try to enact with that child.

Actually, 'he's not going to do it like the others do it' is a huge negative assumption, but the chances are he won't do it like the others do it if the main carers actually endorse the attitude that he doesn't need to, is incapable of, or is somehow exempt from all of the usual rules. That's human nature, and has nothing to do with SEN, autism or anything else.

 

 

 

But..... dont you need to understand the under lying issue, he kicked an LSA because he wasnt prepared enough, he had difficulties coping with the change, he is going to have more complex changes in a secondary school, surely if a child who responds to aggressive and violent outbursts the LEA should be looking at a school that can help meet the needs of the child so that support is given in the first place to prevent such behaviours, even in Js specialist school they do exclude for physical violence, but they would do there up most to try and ensure the child didnt need to use such actions in the first place.

 

JsMum

Edited October 12, 2008 by JsMum

[baddad]

But..... dont you need to understand the under lying issue, he kicked an LSA because he wasnt prepared enough, he had difficulties coping with the change, he is going to have more complex changes in a secondary school, surely if a child who responds to aggressive and violent outbursts the LEA should be looking at a school that can help meet the needs of the child so that support is given in the first place to prevent such behaviours, even in Js specialist school they do exclude for physical violence, but they would do there up most to try and ensure the child didnt need to use such actions in the first place.

 

JsMum

 

Sorry J's mum - you're assuming all of those things... I'm not saying you're wrong, but they are all assumptions, and he could have just as easily kicked out at the LSA because he was PO'd at missing his favourite lesson. And no, I do not need to understand the underlying issue - that can come later. In a different scenario, where the 'underlying issue' was something that hurt him instead of the LSA you wouldn't hesitate to address the behaviour first and worry about the other details later.

 

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Firstly, I'd ask to see the schools Discipline and Behaviour Policy (every school should have one). My understanding is that a child can only be excluded if they are deemed to pose a health and safety risk to themselves or others and that a parent must be informed in writing, giving full details. My son's HT made a comment about suspension and I must confess to feeling mad. If my son was sent home, he'd be loving it ? play on his wii, watching DVDs, etc! I don't think that's good practice at all, in fact, it's the school shirking their responsibilities for providing the correct level of support (which should prevent these disciplinary beheviours)!

 

Best wishes with this.

 

Caroline.

[Flora]

If my son was sent home, he'd be loving it ? play on his wii, watching DVDs, etc!

 

Hi Caroline,

 

This is what I was saying in an earlier post; if a child is excluded for something as serious as kicking a teacher then it's up to the parents to support the sanction and reinforce the message by not allowing the child to have fun on their 'day off'.

 

Flora

[bid]

But..... dont you need to understand the under lying issue, he kicked an LSA because he wasnt prepared enough, he had difficulties coping with the change, he is going to have more complex changes in a secondary school, surely if a child who responds to aggressive and violent outbursts the LEA should be looking at a school that can help meet the needs of the child so that support is given in the first place to prevent such behaviours, even in Js specialist school they do exclude for physical violence, but they would do there up most to try and ensure the child didnt need to use such actions in the first place.

 

JsMum

 

I know I'm coming from a slightly different angle again here, but...

 

Even if the TA did 'get it wrong', it is still completely unacceptable for a child to physically attack an adult (I'm not saying anyone on this thread thinks it is acceptable, so don't anyone shout at me! ).

 

I have often thought that sometimes it's easy for people to forget that TAs, teachers, care staff, etc, are people too! Many parents here know how shocked and deeply upset they feel when their child attacks them...well, professionals feel exactly the same, but I think it's often easy to forget the impact physical aggression has on them, because parents are thinking about their child.

 

Any kind of attack shakes you, but a serious one affects you for a long time

 

As for exclusion: we were lucky enough that it never happened to Auriel, because he was passive at school. But he did go through periods of physical aggression at home, and then he lost his computer time which was the only thing he really cared about. So, if a child is given a fixed term exclusion for physical or verbal agression, then absolutely no TV, computer, etc, etc. Personally, if he had ever attacked an adult at school, I would have made him write an apology/sorry card as well.

 

Bid