Facts or Events?

[TheNeil]

Been thinking this week as it was the first 'anniversary' of a very traumatic event in my life (I'm not saying what, use your imaginations). I knew that it was coming up but had no idea how I'd react, respond, feel etc.

 

As it turns out, it was just 'another day' but it got me thinking about a theory that's been bouncing around in my head for a while now: Do other people find that 'events' become 'facts' over time?

 

You might be wondering what the hell I'm going on about but I've found that while 'events' typically have an emotional attached to them (e.g. they provoke an emotional response - anger, sadness, happiness etc.), 'facts' don't - they're just 'bits of information' or 'something that happened'. I've tried to think of an example of this which won't upset or offend anyone but I couldn't so I'll use a hypothetical situation instead: Suppose that someone ran my dog over (not that I have a dog). I'd probably get upset that my dog had died, be angry at the person who did it etc. Eventually though it'd just become 'something that happened - my dog died'. No emotional impact or connection and kind of like saying that 'Moscow is a city in Russia', it's just a 'fact'.

 

So...does anyone else find this or am I just being weird again?

 

If you do do you find that it makes things easier or harder? Do you, like me, use this kind of approach to guage when you've 'dealt with' issues? Do other people misinterpret or fail to understand how you can be so 'detached'?

[Moll]

Yes I honestly know what you mean each year I brace my self for the anniversary of the deaths of my 2 babies but each year it hurts less, I can repeat the circumstances factually and unemotionally, I do end up a wreck when I go to their graves.

 

People find it hard to understand but if we broke down every time we talked about them then we would never heal move on and live our lives, the trauma stays with us we can live it and replay it in our mind some times it will hurt like hell other times it will just be a fact like saying your times tables.

 

This is perfectly normal and the reason the human race functions.

 

I think the human brain is very good at compartmentalising things, on my wedding day my phone rang, my bridesmaids dad, the conversation was in German and I was too excited to follow she said he wished us well, 2 weeks later there was a letter telling us that call was telling her her mam had died, she says she sees our wedding as a celebration and her mams death as something different although both are on the same day.

 

 

A good example is childbirth painful, traumatic, but a few years later many women do it again.

 

Does that make sense cos I know what I mean but have been up all night with vomiting children?

Edited February 7, 2009 by Moll

[TheNeil]

Does that make sense cos I know what I mean but have been up all night with vomiting children?

The making sense bit: Yes. The being up with vomiting kids bit: No.

 

Thanks Moll for confirming that I'm 'normal' (in this respect anyway). I understand what you're saying about the emotional side of things getting less and less as time goes, and I'm sorry to hear about your 'anniversary' - I hope that time really is a good healer.

 

Maybe it's just me or maybe it's just the speed at which things get less 'painful' but I just sometimes feel as though it 'stops' and there's, as far as I can tell, no emotional aspect whatsoever. Who knows, maybe there is and it just doesn't 'register'. I suppose that everyone's different, we all deal with things in our ways and at our own speeds and that, ultimately, there's no 'rules' when it comes to 'dealing with' things, even though many people would seem to believe that there's a 'right way' and a 'wrong way' - there's simply your way. Hmm, there's a thought...

 

[cmuir]

Hi

 

Hi - you're not weird.

 

Really glad that you've got through it better than you perhaps thought and can reflect on things.

 

My grandfather passed away almost a year ago. Really knocked me for six, coupled with lots of problems with my son (massive deterioration in behaviour, etc), I really thought I was heading for a breakdown. However, it's very odd (surprises me how you get through it without being an emotional wreck) looking back how you cope and how your feelings eg sadness, pain, etc lessen and/or disappear, despite that person or that event meaning so much.

 

Agree with Moll that the pain of a traumatic event for example lessens, but you never really forget. It all gets chalked down to life I guess!

 

Caroline.

 

 

[**Mia]

I think that it is like 'facts' it is a way of coping, it is more manageable to look at it as a fact. Our family has seen a lot of grief, but I know my mum lights a candle and places a candle near a photo to remember someone, but, she never talked about it, talking about these things were not something we did. My mum lost her twin and she didnt show signs of emotion for 10 years, on the tenth anniversary, she went to pieces after the event, she kept it all together for us and one day, the mould broke. This is really intense emotion when you block something out for years like she did. She used to say planting a tree or flower was good because you can watch it over the years especially on those anniversaries.

 

 

Mia

Edited February 7, 2009 by **Mia

[pearl]

Its an interesting subject. Like Moll says, if we didnt move on from trauma & the emotion surrounding it, we simply wouldnt be able to function, so yes I think its "normal" (whatever "normal" is) to have some detachment from a traumatic event eventually. The speed with which this happens depends on the individual I think.

 

When my dad died in '94, I was floored with grief, as we were so close we were almost telepathic. I still miss him, & have a lump in my throat as I type this. But his actual death - traumatic & horrible as it was, I can now look back on quite calmly. Its the unexpected things that raise the emotion - seeing someone who looks like him always does it. But I think because I grieved fully when it happened, I picked myself up much more quickly than I would have by running away from the grief, if that makes sense.

 

Where it becomes more complex is when something is so traumatic that the mind blocks it out altogether, then it can sneak up on you years later. I was watching the prog about the Chelsea Pensioners this week. A new "boy" was looking forward to seeing his old comrade who saved his life when they were in Changi prison during the war. But the other guy had no memory of it whatsoever - it was so traumatic he'd blocked it out, & they all had to tread v carefully with him or they'd have sent him over the edge.

[TheNeil]

Thanks people. Not only for answering the question but for sharing what are obviously painful and difficult personal stories - I hope it hasn't been too traumatic or upsetting for anyone. <'>

 

It's obvious that everybody copes in different ways and while some people prefer to 'bottle it up', 'blank it out' or whatever, other people prefer to talk about it and be open and honest. No right way, no wrong way.

 

The attitude that I seem to have adopted is that events such as these can either destroy you, or you grit your teeth and keep going through the pain. Things like this will never go away for people and they'll always exist, it's how you react and respond to them - 'destroy' or 'adapt and survive'? As I said to myself early on Wednesday morning "It's been a year, you've now done every single day and look how far you've come". This is a milestone not a millstone (and all of that before I even had my bran flakes )

 

For me I can now say 'done'. OK I know I haven't said what the actual 'event' was (and I'm sorry but I can't - not that it's a touchy subject for me but I know that it's a subject that can upset people so I'm trying some of that 'tact' stuff that people keep mentioning) but my reaction to it on Wednesday told me that while not 'happy' with what happened, I'm also not 'unhappy' with what happened - it's now switched form being an 'event' that has emotional attachment into a 'fact', 'something that happened' and something that I'm not afraid to talk about openly and honestly about without fear of it happening again (which is somewhat hypocritical given that I said at the start of this paragraph that I couldn't talk about it - you'll just have to trust me on this one).

[pearl]

Something else which crossed my mind (I really must stop all this deep thinking, my brain hurts) - I think a good indication of one's emotional health can be gained from remembering dreams. I noticed a distinct change in what I was dreaming around that time - just after Dad died, I kept getting dreams where he was still in the hospital, & all I had to do was rescue him. I had dreams where I was carrying him through fields of mud, struggling under the weight. But they stopped after a while, & now when I dream about him, its just as he used to be when he was well - like he's paying me a visit, & its really comforting. That to me is my mind going through denial & eventually acceptance & peace.

 

Dunno if you've experienced anything along those lines Neil, but I bet there are others with similar experiences.

[TheNeil]

Dreams are a strange one. When I'm under stress or pressure I tend not to dream to the point where I can remember them. When I'm 'well' my head just goes off on one - how else do you explain Kylie Minogue singing for the massed peoples of China?

 

If it works for you Pearl, and you can use it as an indicator, then that's brilliant - even more so that you now dream about your dad in a 'happy way' <'>

[Moll]

Don't start me on dreams we wont discuss the two giant aquatic frogs that were living in 2 small tanks that where under a 8 foot aquarium I was buying for hubby or the nuns I was chatting to while running a knicker stall on the market

 

I'm putting it down to disturbed sleep the fact I have issues with knickers and doggy elastic, because if I was my minds way of telling me hubby plans a 8 foot fish tank, I'll be strangling him with said elastic.

 

But yes my stress does come out in dreams, to the point where I am thankful for sleeping tablets and the dream free sleep the induce when things are bad luckily I have only needed 4 in the last year.

 

[Enid]

Yes, really get this but maybe we are all wierd on here When my Mum died I was distraught, took me months before I could thik about her without crying, let alone talk, So I was pretty shocked when I wasnt distraught on Mothers days/anniversaries etc, I know its natures way, but I wasnt expecting it, just to be able to say in conversation, "When my Mum died" and feel ok about it. <'> Enid

[TheNeil]

Yes, really get this but maybe we are all wierd on here

Maybe we're 'normal' and it's everyone else who's 'weird'

 

I hope you're feeling better about your mum's death now Enid (sorry if that sounds 'strange' - I know what I'm trying to say...just saying it badly), although it does sound as though nature has kind of 'done what nature does' <'>

 

[TheNeil]

Don't start me on dreams we wont discuss the two giant aquatic frogs that were living in 2 small tanks that where under a 8 foot aquarium I was buying for hubby or the nuns I was chatting to while running a knicker stall on the market

 

I'm putting it down to disturbed sleep the fact I have issues with knickers and doggy elastic, because if I was my minds way of telling me hubby plans a 8 foot fish tank, I'll be strangling him with said elastic.

 

But yes my stress does come out in dreams, to the point where I am thankful for sleeping tablets and the dream free sleep the induce when things are bad luckily I have only needed 4 in the last year.

Do you have lots of problems with dodgy elastic, giant frogs and nuns Moll? Is there something that you feel you need to tell the group?

 

I sympathise totally with the sleep issue. A lot of people (especially doctors in my experience ) don't seem to understand the importance of getting a good night's sleep - it's almost as if they see it as 'wasted time' or 'no big thing'. To me, sleep is the brain's 'down time' - a few hours where it can just relax, re-adjust its chemical balance, work out the knots that it's tied itself in, and heal itself. I know that I went for months and months with a totally destroyed sleep pattern (anywhere down to two hours a night) and the effect it has can be terrible - you're exhausted but you just won't 'switch off' or your brain resolutely refuses to enter slumberland. Personally I didn't find that sleeping tablets helped me (well not the one's that I was on)(and over-the-counter pills were neither use nor ornament) but a lightbox seemed to make a big difference.

 

I hope that you don't have to rely on pills in the future (although 4 a year can hardly be called an addiction ) - maybe stop annoying nuns, selling underwear with dodgy elastic and/or putting giant frogs in tanks (they can't drive them you know) .

 

Maybe the lump of grey jelly really does know what it's doing after all...

[warrenpenalver]

I think pearls got it about right!! Both on the moving on/dealing with stuff and the dreams.

 

I still have nightmares for things i know i havent properly dealt with yet. But then i dont know how to deal with it so cant move on and blocking things doesnt help!!

 

I saw that Chelsea Pensioners programme too pearl!! Id like to live there when im old!! (well over 40!!) The routine and simple life would suit me.

[pearl]

My dad had nightmares for the rest of his life about his time in the Far East in WW2, Warren. I reckon he was as disabled by war as someone who'd been physically injured. But then, back in the day, there was very little help for returning soldiers with psychiatric probs, little recognition of PTSD & they were just expected to get on with their lives. (So what has changed, I hear you say) Well its still imperfect but at least there are some routes now to get help, I spose <'>

 

Erm .... over 40? OLD ???? You can go off people, you know

Get your name down now Warren - you get to keep your house & everything

Edited February 8, 2009 by pearl

[TheNeil]

I still have nightmares for things i know i havent properly dealt with yet. But then i dont know how to deal with it so cant move on and blocking things doesnt help!!

This is tricky and the only advice I can give is that you do what's best for you. In the past six months or so I've come to the conclusion that there's no 'right way' or 'wrong way' and nobody should ever tell you how to 'deal with' anything. It's a personal thing and what works for one person may not work for another. Some people 'bottle it up', some people prefer to talk about, some seek help (what help there is), some prefer not to. If it works for you though then that's all that matters. 'Experts' should, in my opinion, offer suggestions and advice but they should never say 'do this - it'll sort everything out'. I hope you find 'your way' Warren and I hope that you know that you have a lot of friends on here who'll help whenever/however they can. (no <'>'s as we're 'blokes' and blokes don't do that kind of thing )

 

I saw that Chelsea Pensioners programme too pearl!! Id like to live there when im old!! (well over 40!!) The routine and simple life would suit me.

You've only just got a job and now you're talking about retiring?

 

[TheNeil]

My dad had nightmares for the rest of his life about his time in the Far East in WW2, Warren. I reckon he was as disabled by war as someone who'd been physically injured. But then, back in the day, there was very little help for returning soldiers with psychiatric probs, little recognition of PTSD & they were just expected to get on with their lives. (So what has changed, I hear you say) Well its still imperfect but at least there are some routes now to get help, I spose <'>

Sadly you're right. At least now conditions such as 'shell shock' are recognised as being real conditions and not some sort of cowardice...whether help is actually available or not though is slightly less clear.

 

I know from listening to my grandfather, you were expected to just 'be a man and get on with it' (than again he hid behind shelves in Malta for WWII - his description, not mine ).

 

Erm .... over 40? OLD ???? You can go off people, you know

Oh come on Pearl, he said 40...not 70

 

[warrenpenalver]

My dad had nightmares for the rest of his life about his time in the Far East in WW2, Warren. I reckon he was as disabled by war as someone who'd been physically injured. But then, back in the day, there was very little help for returning soldiers with psychiatric probs, little recognition of PTSD & they were just expected to get on with their lives. (So what has changed, I hear you say) Well its still imperfect but at least there are some routes now to get help, I spose <'>

There still isnt a great amount of help these days but it is a lot better especially with the veterans agency and charities. The biggest battle now is getting the MoD to admit liability and actually diagnose. They wanted to write me off as "borderline personality disorder" and put everything down to that.

 

Had they succeded they could of administratively discharged me with nothing as the forces considers personality disorders to not be an illness but a "defect of character". Luckily for me i wrote everything down and compared it to the ICD-10 diagnostic criteria thus disproving thier intended diagnosis.

 

The other problem now is in this "litigation rich" society the MoD has changed all the pension schemes and changed the criteria which in some cases it provides better pay out for certain severe physical conditions but it made it harder to get payout for other conditions. The independant veterans welfare organisations are upset by it. EG I was entitled to a War Pension under war pension scheme as i have been in long enough, where as under current pension arrangements i would get no "attribitable" benefits as its a different standard of proof and the navy are all to keen to blame all my problems on childhood issues.

 

The other issue you have with the MoD is getting hold of personnel files to prove things especially if its classified!! Luckily theyve changed the data protection and freedom of information laws meaning "security classification" means nothing in terms of your right to gaining the information and now ive left I have applied for my full records and they cant get away with not giving them too me, unless they "loose" them of course

Erm .... over 40? OLD ???? You can go off people, you know

Get your name down now Warren - you get to keep your house & everything

hey, i started saying " the youth of today" so surely that makes me old now??

Im not bothered about the house, as long as i keep my car!!

 

You've only just got a job and now you're talking about retiring?

well technically while i hold a Queen's Commission I never actually cease to be an employee of the crown. Hence the pension is called "retired pay" not pension!! :robbie:

[CEJesson]

Yes they do, all the time. In fact dates are probably one of the strongest facts I recall.

[Mumble]

nobody should ever tell you how to 'deal with' anything.

True, but sometimes, as the saying goes, we can't see what's right under/in front of our nose and so at times we do need someone to give us a kick (literal or metaphorical, I'm happy to do either ) in the right direction. Sometimes the brain/mind/wotsit gets so caught up in its own game of word/event association (apparently it's proper term is 'catastrophisation' - I don't know the proper spelling) that we do need an outside perspective to make things clearer so we can deal with the actual issues and not the perceived issues. Sometimes we need help to know when we need help.